black.water Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well im looking to start a GK army. Im a noob at 40k, however i played it a little along while ago. Im just now reading through the rulebook and kinda hypothetically finding out how the game would work and what i need, as i havent actually played any game yet and it probably will be a while before i do.. Gks seem to be a good starting army, as they have high pointcost (Thus cheap, as im on a budget) and seem to have alot of toys to play with. Now i also "mostly" wanna stay away from vehicles as they are expensive. So the options i have is either go with a Henchmen army, which i really like as there is alot of conversion opportunity, but it will most likely run me quite abit of cash.. So im thinking of having 1 Inquisitor henchmen unit and just built the rest of the army normally. Now this is where things get flimsy and theoretical.. As i have no real clue what armies need. Im thinking of going heavy on the incinerators as they seem to be pretty damn evil, and then just rush people down, but also have the opportunity of just staying back and shooting. One thing im sure of is that i wanna have dreads in the army, 1 or 2 at minimum.. So i can either go with them as those psyflemen everyone talks about or im thinking double heavyflamer and psyflamer ammuntion so they can stomp some hordes. And possibly a dreadknight but it will need heavy conversion. Im gonna include a librarian aswell for sure, as I already have an old converted one.. Not in terminator armour though : ( meh i will figure something out. He can also boost a squat quite handedly in close combat or with shrouding. Those airplane things is out of the question though, atleast for now. The assassins looks fun, maybe i should try those out. Thing is i dont really know if its best to go for a rushdown list or a sit back and shoot list.. In the sitback list it seems vehicles is less of a priority, no? Pretty annoying the gk cars is so good with the fortitude and such. General advice on building an army is appreciated anyways : P Report this post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
black.water Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Oh, and which armies do Gk have an easy/hard time against? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2799271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Hi there. :mellow: First, some real basics. Buy what you think you will enjoy modelling and painting; if you enjoy it, you're more likely to stick with it. Seems like you're already good for this as you dig GK models. Army-wise, you'll need - bare-minimum - a commander (HQ) and two Troop units which can score/hold objectives. Typically these will be power-armored Grey Knights, but you can use Terminators also. With certain special characters you can use elite troops choices (Paladins and Purifiers) to fit the Troop slots as well. You'll also - in almost all cases - want transports to ferry your guys around. Foot-slogging armies are hard. You have one that can make it work, though; you should check out the "Draigo Wing" which is, more or less: HQ - Draigo, special character. Troops: Fifteen Paladins (terminator armored figures) split into two units of 10 and 5. Per unit, almost every model should have a unique wargear configuration for Wound Allocation Shenanigans. A Dreadknight or two. Possibly an assassin or a Dreadnought. See this thread for some details: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=229135 The Paladins and Draigo can DS and can fire at 24" on the move, so with some creative thinking they can get by on not having transports. Where you'll get into trouble is when there are multiple objectives and you're outnumbered by a horde army 4-to-1. You won't be able to contest or control more than two points (assuming losses by end-game) so you'll have to massacre them wholesale. Sound like a fun challenge? (Emphasis on "challenge".) Then this is the army for you. :P This list is not really for beginners, but I'm all for jumping in feet-first, so I won't advice against it. A more general list would be, like: - Librarian or Brother Captain - 2-3 Grey Knight Strike Squads in Rhinos - 0-2 Interceptor Squads - 0-2 Purgation Squads - fill out with fun stuff (Paladins, Dreadknights, Dreads, what have you) Far easier to play, but with a higher model count. Last rule of thumb: maximize the number of psycannons you put on the field. Last bit of general advice: Expect to lose your first few months of games...many spectacular losses. Don't lose faith; you learn more from losing. Welcome to the game! :wub: (You posted again...) With a Draigo Wing: - A Space Marine list with three vindicators in it will be the fight of your life. - Horde Armies, especially IG with massed armor, will be an uphill battle. Really, no fight will be an easy one with a Draigo-wing, but that's part of the appeal. Now I'm thinking you really do want to go more vanilla and get some Rhinos and some PAGK squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2799279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Welcome aboard! If you're playing a an all-infantry army, there are a couple of things that you must bear in mind. Firstly, you have to be able to survive enemy firepower. As even my son has noticed from going up against 100+ model Ork armies (and beating them), sheer numbers isn't enough. You have to have mobility, firepower, and resilience. While I agree that GKs can pull it off, it's still a difficult thing to pull off successfully. The reason people buy vehicles is because they not only protect your fragile infantry, they give your army additional mobility (speed) and firepower. Secondly, most people play at least partially mechanized armies. Having a love affair with the incinerator is all well and good, but they're essentially useless against anybody sitting in even a lowly Rhino or Chimera. Let alone if someone brings along shooting vehicles like predators, vindicators, fire prisms, hammerheads, leman russes, etc. The most important thing every 40K army must do is pack themselves full of anti-armour weaponry. You really can't have enough of it. And this is something of an inherent weakness of the GK army. The army is very well suited to destroy infantry without the help of a single incinerator (i.e., stormbolters everywhere, Marine attacks with force weapons) but completely relies on just three things for taking care of enemy armour: psycannons, GK vehicles (e.g., psyflemen dreadnoughts), and inquisitorial henchmen with melta guns. If you're going for pure infantry, you're obviously not taking dreadnoughts or inquisitorial henchmen (because unless you mount them up in transports, those melta guns will never get close enough to get shots off), and that means all you have left are psycannons. You did mention an interest in psyflemen, but they can't be expected to carry the full weight of your anti-armour needs. Unless you have a way to deliver incinerators up close -- and you need vehicles for that! -- you should always prefer psycannons. They're dandy against infantry, and they serve double-duty as a decent anti-armour weapon, too. Personally, I am quite disenchanted with "Draigowing" armies, armies primarily composed of Draigo and Paladins. I feel like, point for point, you get a lot more bang for the buck out of the basic guys. Meltas are deadly against all terminators, but they're especially painful against Paladins because they cause instant death. Doesn't matter how many wounds your Paladin has; if he's hit by a melta, he's likely fried. You're not out nearly so much with normal termies. If you really want a Draigo list, I suggest taking him and one unit of Troops Paladins -- just 5 models -- and then support that with things like inquisitorial warbands, psyflemen, etc. If you love GK terminators -- and who doesn't! -- I would suggest sticking with the basic Troops guys and taking a different HQ. Just by way of example -- pulling all of this together -- here are two example all-infantry lists to give you ideas. The first list with the interceptors puts a lot of pressure on the enemy deployment zone and moves dangerous units right into their face and the middle of the table. The second list is all about how difficult it is to remove 31 terminators. +++ The Hammering +++ HQ [80 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, hammer, psycannon Elite [110 pts] Techmarine, conversion beamer [110 pts] Techmarine, conversion beamer Troop [230 pts] 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, justicar w/hammer [230 pts] 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, justicar w/hammer [110 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon Fast Attack [315 pts] 10 Interceptors, 2 psycannons, 3 hammers, justicar w/hammer [315 pts] 10 Interceptors, 2 psycannons, 3 hammers, justicar w/hammer Total: 1500 pts Attach techmarines to combat squads of basic Strikers in your deployment zone, send everybody else forward. The Inquisitor goes with the small Striker unit. I wouldn't normally combat squad the Interceptors, though that is at least a possibility. +++ Nothing but Terminators +++ HQ [89 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, hammer, psycannon, 3 servo skulls Troop [470 pts] 10 Terminators, 2 psycannons, warding stave, 7 halberds, 2 hammers [470 pts] 10 Terminators, 2 psycannons, warding stave, 7 halberds, 2 hammers [470 pts] 10 Terminators, 2 psycannons, warding stave, 7 halberds, 2 hammers Total: 1499 pts Combat squad everything, attach the Inquisitor wherever. Advance implacably, shooting all the way in. ++++++ The last thing to note about these lists: notice the complete lack of special characters. And no GM or Librarian, either. Many people claim that a Librarian is a "must have" HQ, or that the GM is a "must have HQ", or similar. None of which is true. All the HQ models have their place, but only in the right army list. Your army list should dictate the HQ you take, not the other way around. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2799348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Techmarines with Conversion Beamers are nice. Something else that Techmarines (and GK commanders) can take that interest me are Orbital Strikes. One of them is hit-or-miss...but several of them may be a good time. Like I said, Draigo-wing is a challenge to play; I can't dispute otherwise. It is, model-wise, probably the smallest army you can field right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2799454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I'm personally liking the "Ghostwing" army. Mordrak + Ghosts (mostly unique) + Librarian w/ Homer & powers (I'm liking Warp Rift, Quicksilver, and Sanctuary) 2x 10-man GKT (all unique, max psycannons, 1 hammer per 5 models) 1x 10-man GKIS (max psycannons, 1 hammer per 5 models) 1750pts Lets you start with your entire army in reserve. Drop your HQ anywhere you want on the board 1st turn with no scatter, and if you place them in cover in a spot that is inconvenient to your opponent, they will survive as well as disrupt any plan your opponent may have. With Psychic Communion and Grand Strategy, you will be able to control which units arrive when and where. And while not as durable as a Paladin army, you will be trading a little bit of resilience for a lot more flexibility in deployment. Of course, that's an army that takes some time to master. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2799481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Heh. It's funny you bring up Mordrak. :rolleyes: Along the lines of "all-infantry", I came up with a Mordrak army at 1500 pts that only gets better as you scale the points up (and can outfit some units with different upgrades in addition to adding more units). IMHO, your Mordrak list doesn't work because it must sacrifice Mordrak and nothing else on turn 1 without any other support. Most enemy armies should be able to destroy a single 5-man terminator unit if they have a full 1750 pt army available to do it. To make Mordrak work, you have to give the opponent much more than him to worry about. And if you want to play Mordrak in a reserves-based army, you need to make sure that your army comes in more reliably than even a 3+ from a single psychic communion can deliver. Fortunately, we have a recent FAQ update that lets us stack psychic power effects. Here's how I solved the problem at 1500 pts. HQ [400 pts] Mordrak, 5 Ghost Knights w/4 halberds and 1 hammer [119 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, force weapon, psycannon, psychic communion, 3 servo skulls Troop [120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer [120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer [120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer Heavy Support [230 pts] Dreadknight, greatsword, teleporter [230 pts] Dreadknight, greatsword, teleporter [160 pts] Dreadknight, heavy incinerator Total: 1499 pts Attach the Inquistor to Mordrak's unit and deep strike into position on turn 1. Deploy the teleporting DKs on the table but hold everything else in reserve. For objective missions, Mordrak can make d3 of your DKs scoring. This means on turn 1 you'll have 7 terminators and 2 DKs in your opponent's grill right away, which at 1500 pts ought to be enough to cause some trouble. (And if Mordrak takes any wounds, you'll get more terminators! You definitely want Mordrak and the Inquisitor to absorb as many wounds as is possible ... without killing them, of course.) On turn 2, you can cast psychic communion twice (Mordrak once and the Inquisitor for the other), giving all your Strikers and the incinerator DK the ability to come down on a 2+, all but guaranteeing your entire army will be in place straight away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2799499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
black.water Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 Hmmm i might not be so opposed to vehicles as i thought.. I was thinking alot of melta acylotes and incinerator squads in rhinos, and dreadknight/dreadnoughts for hunting vehicles.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2799958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Hmmm i might not be so opposed to vehicles as i thought.. When I first started playing (a DIY Space Marine chapter) I bought the Rhinos last, due to their expense. I had a very hard time just getting to mid field. I got shot to pieces on the way in, couldn't really put out enough fire on the move to make up for it, and forget trying to take any objectives that I didn't deploy on. I can't recommend transports enough, even for GK who are stellar at firing on the move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2800038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
black.water Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Well im not sure that im that opposed to vehicles actually. Right not im thinking something like closecombat henchmen with meltas, 2-3 squads with incinerators in transporter some of those autocannon dudes.. maybe a dreadknight. Now i havent worked out all the kinks and such yet, but seems to be a fairly good mix. Greyknights should demolish power armour, Incinerate hordes with,, incinerators.. Closecombat henchmen with meltas for utility.. Psyfledreads for general armour and dreadknights can teleport in and munch up some tanks and what have you (if i understood correctly) But yeah maybe i can borrow some rhinos or something.. hm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2801432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
black.water Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 bump ;:o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2802818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 HQ[80 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, hammer, psycannon Elite [110 pts] Techmarine, conversion beamer [110 pts] Techmarine, conversion beamer What instigated this choice of layout for these boys? I would have been more inclined to go: 80 Xenos Inquisitor with Conversion Beamer, Plasma Syphon 70 Xenos Inquisitor with Conversion Beamer 110 Tech Marine with Conversion Beamer Which gives you 40pts to either up the Hammer count on the interceptors. Throw in a couple of Halberds or what have you. I propose this for three key reasons 1) You can opt out your Syphon Inquisitor out of shooting and push him up the board with some Striker cover allowing you to cover your troops against a plasma heavy force (or tau!) 2) This gives you three unique Conversion beamers letting you to group em up and sit them in a back corner while your other strikes do other things. Their range should protect them and if not then you get to assign wounds and minimize the incoming damage. 3) The Malleus inquisitor only adds a little bit to the list IMO. Where as the Extra Beamer gives you all sorts of options for tank poping, Paladin poping or just being a jerk to things in general. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2805107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 HQ[80 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, hammer, psycannon Elite [110 pts] Techmarine, conversion beamer [110 pts] Techmarine, conversion beamer What instigated this choice of layout for these boys? I would have been more inclined to go: 80 Xenos Inquisitor with Conversion Beamer, Plasma Syphon 70 Xenos Inquisitor with Conversion Beamer 110 Tech Marine with Conversion Beamer Which gives you 40pts to either up the Hammer count on the interceptors. Throw in a couple of Halberds or what have you. Your changes make the list worse. The OM Inquisitor is required to give you a 3rd midfield striker unit with a hammer and 2 psycannons. Complete symmetry attained. Without it, you have a weak link in the midfield, which is unacceptable. Two conversion beamers at 1500 pts is sufficient, but you can't afford any inefficiencies at 1500 pts, either. At 2000 pts, sure, there's some allowance for more fun choices ... like a plasma siphon. Speaking of the plasma syphon, it will never get used because you put it on a guy carrying a conversion beamer. The conversion beamer is only useful deployed deep into your deployment zone. When is syphon ever going to be near any plasma weapons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2805132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 The OM Inquisitor is required to give you a 3rd midfield striker unit with a hammer and 2 psycannons. Complete symmetry attained. Without it, you have a weak link in the midfield, which is unacceptable. Two conversion beamers at 1500 pts is sufficient, but you can't afford any inefficiencies at 1500 pts, either. At 2000 pts, sure, there's some allowance for more fun choices ... like a plasma siphon. Speaking of the plasma syphon, it will never get used because you put it on a guy carrying a conversion beamer. The conversion beamer is only useful deployed deep into your deployment zone. When is syphon ever going to be near any plasma weapons? You'd still have 2 out of three of your main mid field units. Your third would in this case be more of a support unit. With the added points you could fill in a hammer in that squad which would make it of more use for example. Alternatively I think there is potential here for the small psycannon squad to be sitting back covering the Conversion beamers whilst the full on ten man squads give you extra push up the middle. Im not trying to argue that it would play Identically I just think there is something to be said for the utility unique beamers and syphon offer. I did specify against certain opponents you might want to opt out of the conversion beamer shooting to push the syphon up the board (tau was my example) Having said that I think I can perhaps see your point in which case would it not be better to do the following with the list? Saving you 40 pts which could go into 2 small henchmen squads to set the beamers into. Which would double the number of Bodies pushing in your mid field in the list. HQ [70 pts] OX Inquisitor, Conversion Beamer [70 pts] OX Inquisitor, Conversion Beamer Elite [20 pts] 5 Warrior Acoylte [20 pts] 5 Warrior Acolyte Troop [230 pts] 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, justicar w/hammer [230 pts] 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, justicar w/hammer [230 pts] 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, justicar w/hammer Fast Attack [315 pts] 10 Interceptors, 2 psycannons, 3 hammers, justicar w/hammer [315 pts] 10 Interceptors, 2 psycannons, 3 hammers, justicar w/hammer Total: 1500 pts PS: I pretty much only play 2K Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2805141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Alternatively I think there is potential here for the small psycannon squad to be sitting back covering the Conversion beamers whilst the full on ten man squads give you extra push up the middle. That's not how the list is designed. The 10-man striker units combat squad. Each conversion beamer gets attached to a unit of 5 vanilla GKs. The 3 midfield Striker units are just 5-man units. They work in conjuunction with the large -- NOT combat-squadded -- interceptors. Having said that I think I can perhaps see your point in which case would it not be better to do the following with the list? Saving you 40 pts which could go into 2 small henchmen squads to set the beamers into. Which would double the number of Bodies pushing in your mid field in the list. I think 35 Marines in midfield at 1500 pts is sufficient. I'd rather have the GKs bodyguarding the conversion beamers than naked do-nothing warrior henchmen. They're more resilient than warriors and inquisitors. GKs -- and a techmarine -- can at least DO something if confronted with, say, outflankers. The Striker bodyguard prevent deep strike threats because of Warp Quake. That's yet another something that Warriors cannot do. You have to look at the ENTIRE list and the way it works. There are no substitutes possible. All possible substitutes will weaken the list and the way it is designed to play, both on offense and defense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2805205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 You have to look at the ENTIRE list and the way it works. There are no substitutes possible. All possible substitutes will weaken the list and the way it is designed to play, both on offense and defense. Ok. The list I propose: -maintains up to 3 Striker combat squads that are deployable where needed be that mid field or in the back (thats only a gain of 5) -Brings 10 additional ablative wounds or shields just for the beamers In my experience these things are good. Perhaps I have had different experiences then you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232677-gk-army/#findComment-2805236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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