Space Wolf Legion

[Icee77]

So, when Roboute Guilliman separated all the legions into chapters, making more and more chapters, what happened to the Space Wolf Legion? The Space Wolves only made one chapter and even that one was disbanded. What happened to the Space Wolf numbers that made it at least a bit Codex-friendly? It's obvious that the Space Wolves have more Marines than a regular chapter, but even that many cannot equal those that equaled a legion. It is noted that their numbers were pretty low as a legion, but the average number for a legion is 10,000. How could 10,000 or even 5,000 become 1,300?

Also, If there already is a topic about this, sorry. The Search engine for me is weird, taking a long time to load.

[esinhorn]

In the new book battle for the Fang they touch on this, Half Became the Fated Wolf Brothers.

[Legatus]

It is noted that their numbers were pretty low as a legion, but the average number for a legion is 10,000. How could 10,000 or even 5,000 become 1,300?

Some of them died?

 

And while that did make some sense back when a Legion was on average 10,000 strong, where you could easily imagine that after assaulting another Legion's homeworld and fighting through the rest of the Heresy and the Scouring a smaller Legion of 7,000ish have been down to 2,000 or 3,000, according to the newer black library Materials a Legion now is supposed to be 100,000 strong on average.

 

I.e., the Space Wolves did not lose 4-5K out of 7K (roughly 60-70% casualties). They lost 67K out of 70K (~96% casualties). Ouch.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, they got fairly badly mauled during the Fall of Prospero, and still did their best to get involved during the rest of the Heresy, so they didn't take any time to sit back and regain their losses.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Remember... 10K number for the average legion has been officially retconned. 100K is the average size.

 

Raven Guard were considered small at 80K. Perhaps the SW's were the same size.

 

Unfortunately I think this is one of those where there just isn't an answer as GW/BL have not thought about it in depth(SW size).

 

But without any cleared up we can assume P. Burns, the Battle against the Alphas, other fighting on the way of Terra, the split into the Wolf Brothers and finally the scouring have limited the numbers tremendously.

 

Note, the assumption is that Guilleman/high lords, would have given up on SW's modifying their numbers to be in line with the Codex after the ill fated Wolf Brothers.

 

Current day numbers as stated are very tricky. There have been millions of internet hours cleaved in the Fang Forum debating this. Currently there is sticky discussing any new info.

 

That said, for me, utilizing the description of Ragnar's Company as a guide in the current codex, I'm guessing current numbers are around 1,500-1,600.

[Gree]

Remember... 10K number for the average legion has been officially retconned. 100K is the average size.

 

A D-B retconned that again, the Word Bearers where stated to be the second largest legion at 100,000 Astartes, which would put the average sized legion below that, but above 80,000 Astartes.

[Purge The Weak]

Attrition Happened, they whittled down till there was only around 1300 left. And also tried founding the wolf brothers using geneseed, but that never worked out!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

well, after Prospero, the rest of the heresy and the scouring, i would place the Wolves at around 4.5k.

 

 

then, as told in Battle of the Fang, the Wolf Brothers got half of the remaining legion. the surviving Space Wolves, after the losses suffered in Magnus's trap, purging Fenris, and the decimation of a Great Company numbered just over 2k. this was said at the end of the book. using this number, we can guesstimate that when the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers split, the Legion numbered around 5k.

 

 

so, what happend to the Wolves legion? they were lost in the most terrible wars of mankind and the purge of traitors that happened after it. while Fenris kept enjough recruits during the Great Crusade to replenish the Wolves's losses, it appears that the new, slower, and more stringent Marine creation process hampered the rebuilding of the Legion.

 

the only real question i have it why the Wolves havent rebuilt the Wolves themselves over the last 10,000 years...

 

WLK

[Kizzdougs]

Don't forget the disappearance of the 13th company. Although a single company might not seem like much, pre-heresy companies were considerably larger than those of the chapters in the 41st millenium.

Have the SW only ever had 13 companies? If so and we assume the SW companies were roughly the same size as each other, we could say the 13th was around 6,100 marines strong. Going by the 80,000 strong legion estimate.

[Icee77]

Before I completely submerged into 40k lore, I always thought that Space Wolves were put into stasis, like Skajlds are. You know, so as to have reinforcements if they suffer losses.

[Legatus]

then, as told in Battle of the Fang

The Battle of the Fang happened after the Second Founding, and after the diappearance of Leman Russ. Or does the book retcon that? Or is it about an entirely different battle?

[Lord Ragnarok]

then, as told in Battle of the Fang

The Battle of the Fang happened after the Second Founding, and after the diappearance of Leman Russ. Or does the book retcon that? Or is it about an entirely different battle?

 

And don't understand what you are eluding? Kieran kind of did a backwards guesstimate based on the surviving number of wolves as described in the book "Battle of the Fang".

 

 

Before I completely submerged into 40k lore, I always thought that Space Wolves were put into stasis, like Skajlds are. You know, so as to have reinforcements if they suffer losses.

I have never heard this in my 7 years of wolfdom.

[Lord_Caerolion]

then, as told in Battle of the Fang

The Battle of the Fang happened after the Second Founding, and after the diappearance of Leman Russ. Or does the book retcon that? Or is it about an entirely different battle?

 

Yes, it happened after, but it apparently referenced the Second Founding, specifically the split of the Legion into the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

then, as told in Battle of the Fang

The Battle of the Fang happened after the Second Founding, and after the diappearance of Leman Russ. Or does the book retcon that? Or is it about an entirely different battle?

 

And don't understand what you are eluding? Kieran kind of did a backwards guesstimate based on the surviving number of wolves as described in the book "Battle of the Fang".

 

 

Before I completely submerged into 40k lore, I always thought that Space Wolves were put into stasis, like Skajlds are. You know, so as to have reinforcements if they suffer losses.

I have never heard this in my 7 years of wolfdom.

 

while the final numbers i guesstimated where from the end of the book, during the book some explanation of the Wolf Brothers is given:

on page 420 of Battle of the Fang, it is said that the Wolf Brothers were to be as numerous and powerful as the Space Wolves. They were also given half the armory, fleet and priests of the Wolves. So from this we can project that they and the Wolves were simular size, right?

Now after the Battle of the Fang, only 22 Wolves survived from Greyloc's great company. During the new Great Wolf's speech it is said that the entire Chapter is present on Fenris. When they cheer at the end of the speech, it is said that 2,000 Wolves raise their voice.

 

using this information, and guessing at the losses suffered from the siege and the hunt for magnus, i would put the Wolves chapter at around 2,400 at the time of the Battle of the Fang. is this was their usual strength, then i would assume that the Wolf Brother's strength be in the same ball park.

 

this is my logic, i am not sure how sound it is. it works for me.

 

 

@kizzdougs: i didnt forget the 13th Company, but figured for the purposes of figuring out the strength of the Wolves they could be ignored, as they arent under the command of the Space Wolf Chapter. also, their loss wouldnt effect how the Legion was broken down if everything was separated as i said above.

 

WLK

WLK

[ninja6fett]

I thought A D-B said something about how legion size/numbers weren't officially codified by BL until after the release of Prospero Burns?

[Lord Ragnarok]

then, as told in Battle of the Fang

The Battle of the Fang happened after the Second Founding, and after the diappearance of Leman Russ. Or does the book retcon that? Or is it about an entirely different battle?

 

And don't understand what you are eluding? Kieran kind of did a backwards guesstimate based on the surviving number of wolves as described in the book "Battle of the Fang".

 

 

Before I completely submerged into 40k lore, I always thought that Space Wolves were put into stasis, like Skajlds are. You know, so as to have reinforcements if they suffer losses.

I have never heard this in my 7 years of wolfdom.

 

while the final numbers i guesstimated where from the end of the book, during the book some explanation of the Wolf Brothers is given:

on page 420 of Battle of the Fang, it is said that the Wolf Brothers were to be as numerous and powerful as the Space Wolves. They were also given half the armory, fleet and priests of the Wolves. So from this we can project that they and the Wolves were simular size, right?

Now after the Battle of the Fang, only 22 Wolves survived from Greyloc's great company. During the new Great Wolf's speech it is said that the entire Chapter is present on Fenris. When they cheer at the end of the speech, it is said that 2,000 Wolves raise their voice.

 

using this information, and guessing at the losses suffered from the siege and the hunt for magnus, i would put the Wolves chapter at around 2,400 at the time of the Battle of the Fang. is this was their usual strength, then i would assume that the Wolf Brother's strength be in the same ball park.

 

this is my logic, i am not sure how sound it is. it works for me.

 

 

@kizzdougs: i didnt forget the 13th Company, but figured for the purposes of figuring out the strength of the Wolves they could be ignored, as they arent under the command of the Space Wolf Chapter. also, their loss wouldnt effect how the Legion was broken down if everything was separated as i said above.

 

WLK

WLK

 

Agreed. 13th shouldn't be counted once they disappeared. Also the 13th Company is not the only lost company. Many have been lost after the HH and no exact number known.

[Kizzdougs]

Haha. I wasn't suggesting that the 13th should be included in the current number of SWs. I was simply putting forward another reason why the SW were so depleted after the heresy. Attrition durring the heresy and scouring, splitting of the legion and the disappearance of the 13th.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

oh, my mistake then.

 

so, does my answer make sense to anybody or is it complete bull?

 

WLK

[A D-B]

Remember... 10K number for the average legion has been officially retconned. 100K is the average size.

 

A D-B retconned that again, the Word Bearers where stated to be the second largest legion at 100,000 Astartes, which would put the average sized legion below that, but above 80,000 Astartes.

 

That's paaaaaaartly an assumption, Gree. I've been clarifying on forums for ages that the average Legion size was 100,000, which is true, and that "smaller" Legions clocked in at about 80,000ish if we go by Raven Guard figures. But the only fact we've got is that Legions averaged at 100,000, and the Raven Guard were considered a smaller Legion at 80,000.

 

Remember, a lot of The First Heretic is set almost 50 years before the height of the Great Crusade, when the Heresy kicks off. The Word Bearers are at 100,000 then, but they've got time to grow hugely before Isstvan (and indeed, they do, once Lorgar returns from the Eye).

[Legatus]

Remember, a lot of The First Heretic is set almost 50 years before the height of the Great Crusade, when the Heresy kicks off. The Word Bearers are at 100,000 then, but they've got time to grow hugely before Isstvan (and indeed, they do, once Lorgar returns from the Eye).

But... they were said to be extremely active after the rebuke from the Emperor. If they had been that active, all while growing in size to be the second largest Legion, then that would indicate that they had an even better recruitment regime than the Ultramarines...

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Remember, a lot of The First Heretic is set almost 50 years before the height of the Great Crusade, when the Heresy kicks off. The Word Bearers are at 100,000 then, but they've got time to grow hugely before Isstvan (and indeed, they do, once Lorgar returns from the Eye).

But... they were said to be extremely active after the rebuke from the Emperor. If they had been that active, all while growing in size to be the second largest Legion, then that would indicate that they had an even better recruitment regime than the Ultramarines...

 

Not necessarily. The worlds left in the wake of the Word Bearer's venting are described as lifeless balls of rock. Sounds like most of the astartes level fighting was made after a lot of explosives were rained down.

 

Also, your confusing timelines.

 

Lorgar's rebuke - The venting - The Eye of Terror - Growing of Legion. The venting, before, the growing, after.

 

You also have to realise that as such a large legion, the Ultramarines would see a lot more fighting (as their are more brothers to go around and fight on various places) and therefore lose a lot more astartes than the Word Bearers would.

 

Not everything is a slight against the Ultramarines, Legatus. The other Legions have their own strengths too, some of which might be similar to the Ultramarines. That does not make the other legions better, simply similar.

[Dinks]

Not everything is a slight against the Ultramarines, Legatus. The other Legions have their own strengths too, some of which might be similar to the Ultramarines. That does not make the other legions better, simply similar.

Indeed, about time Legatus realised that.

[Legatus]

I wouldn't see this as a "slight", as more of a simple break of canon. But then as an Ultramarine player I would be one of the few people even familiar with this particular canon. One of the points made in the Ultramarine background is that the Legion's supply lines and their recruitment program were organised so effectively that even while making faster progress than other Legions, they would be supplied with new recruits so fast that they were growing in strength. (Though another factor was that they were also suffering fewer casualties than other Legions.) But they had 200 years to reach the numbers they had at the end of the Crusade (or a bit less, depending on when Guilliman had been found.) If the Word Bearers manage to be extremely active all while growing (supposedly even faster than the Ultramarines, since it happens over a shorter period of time), then there should be an explanation. If it is possible for a Legion to grow this quickly, why were some of the Legions permanently smaller? (ECs, TSs, Sals, SWs come to mind)

 

But then, maybe their hasty drafting process is one of the reasons why the Word Bearers were not possible to overwhelm the Ultramarines defending Calth, even with a numerical superiority?

[The Broker]

It's possible that the Word Bearers had a habit of recruiting from many of the worlds they pacified (and had converted to the Lectitio Divinatus) before Monarchia.

 

I certainly like the idea of Lorgar seeing the devotion of a population and rewarding them by recruiting from their world.

 

Over time, if most worlds which were converted by the Word Bearers did this, and recruitment was ramped up after Lorgar went into the Eye, I could see how the Word Bearers could grow at an unprecedented rate. Since Chaplains would be indoctrinating recruits as well as the populace, they could corrupt a world to the worship of Chaos while swelling their ranks.

 

It's also worth remembering that Ultramarines took great care when recruiting Marines - the process they had was slower, and more reliable, and since they recruited from the many worlds in Ultramar, this was never a problem.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

No, the failure at Calth (IIRC) was solely because Zadkiel was a moron. He is to us Word Bearers like Uriel Ventris is to the Ultramarines. I'm sure you understand :)

 

Also, in regards to Ultramarines knowing info that others don't - both yes and no. I'd consider that peice of information an Ultramarine 'need to know' but not necessarily for the wider fanbase. However, you'd be surprised what users pick up from the various debates that circle around the forum. Just look at me :P

 

Back to the topic at hand.

 

Partially what the Broker just said, although, during the fifty years following Lorgar's trip to the Eye all the chaplains were tied up infiltrating the other Legions.

 

Partially, the points I stated previously. Again, the Word Bearers didn't lose a whole lot of astartes, so they don't have to make up as much the Ultramarines do, who have a higher number of losses because of their large size, despite the fact that they probably lose less per engagement, they still have a lot of engagements. Indeed, this is why the Ultramarines are said to have gained most of their honours - they had so many astartes they could do a lot more than the other legions could.

 

To the other legions remaining smaller... I don't have a good answer for that. Why didn't the Word Bearers use their resources to grow before Lorgar went into the Eye of Terror? Maybe it was because of homeworld issues? Maybe some legions, like the Space Wolves, felt that they had the 'right' amount, for reasons undoubtably logical only to themselves*. Maybe some, like the Emperor's Children, only used the best of the best of the best of the best - that is to say, they were much more harsher in their recruitment than the other Legions. Maybe they had geneeed issues, like the Thousand Sons. I don't have a definitive answer.

 

*Part of why I like the Ultramarines - their take on things is ' how can I do this in the most effecient/effective/best way' as opposed to the Space Wolves who are more of 'The skjald said do it this way, praise Russ and the sky gods. We get to have some fun'