Space Wolf Legion

[TennisBall]

It was essentially said that Magnus invaded the Aett to stop the Tempering because of Wyrmblade's vision of an Empire of Wolves. Wouldn't it follow that the 1K Sons had something to do with the Wolf Brothers' genetic instability?

No. If it specifically affected the Wolf Brothers then the Space Wolves would have started another chapter using the fleet, armour etc from them, just not their gene seed. It apparently was bad enough that no future chapters would be created suggesting that the problem lay with the Space Wolves gene seed. If the problem lay with them though, how is it that they can create new marines but an offshoot can't. Big fluff hole there.

[frostclaw222]

This is a really interesting thread here.

 

"There are no wolves on Fenris," tends to suggest a baseline compatibility between Fenrisian humans (homo sapiens fenryka) and the Canis Helix. This would also support the argument that the original settlers fiddled with their genome to better adapt to the environment, screwed up, and that the fenrisian wolves are actually a genetic abnormality of the sapiens fenryka that either bred true or happens consistently enough that populations grew. Add in the members of the 6th that end up going wulfen, and you account for variances in size of the fenrisian wolves from typical to Thunderwolf.

 

As said above, there is no good reason why the Wolf Brothers would all go wulfen or mutate like the Thousand Sons at some point, unless some external factor was at work. I'd never considered Magnus having a hand in it, but the idea has merit. I mean, if the Wolf Brothers were looked at as a first step towards the Tempering, and Magnus feared the eventual results of the Tempering, you'd reckon he'd want to take care of the first iteration as well, right?

 

As for the Rout never reconstituting to larger numbers: yes, you have the Prospero, Heresy, and Scouring losses, which totaled up might well be significant. But also remember, once the Codex was applied, each legion became a chapter, and had to make due with a chapter's level of resource support from the Imperium and the Mechanicus. If you're down around two thousand astartes, keep going out there and fighting in conflicts, and are only recruiting from one sparsely populated deathworld, and all the material reinforcement you're getting is structured towards a support model of 1000 astartes, then that's seriously going to hamper ramping back up to legion strength. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Roboute was a genius in this regard, because it assured Ultramarine successor dominance for the next ten thousand years: there were just more of them, and splitting them up into smaller units placed a glass ceiling between the other legions and ever reaching those numbers of chapters/marines ever again.

[Tezzy]

I always assumed that the Space Wolves were a small legion to begin with (80K if we're using the new Raven Guard logic), lost half of their number in the battle for Prospero (they were fighting another Legion on their home world don't forget) and then gradually lost forces across the age of darkness and the scouring etc. That would say leave them quite depleted when they split in half again to form the Wolf Brothers.

 

The Space Wolves have never properly adhered to the Codex so maybe at the second founding they were a bit like the Black Templars and had a much bigger legion strength but on the quiet? Just because they ignore the Codex now but have a head count that isn't far off the accepted figure doesn't mean it was always only wry by a few hundred, give or take.

[A D-B]

I'm just guessing, here. Bear that in mind. This isn't inside info.

 

I wouldn't be hugely surprised if, at some point, the notion of Space Wolf Successor Chapters actually came into being. Or, as with Battle of the Fang, there were reasons the Space Wolves can't make Successors. But with the increase in legion sizes, I suspect that - at some point - we'll get an "updated" look at the Space Wolves and their ability to contribute to new Foundings.

 

I could easily be wrong. Like I said, it's just a guess.

[Tezzy]

It's one of those gaps in the fluff that has been left behind while other things have been updated.

 

Same thing with the World Eaters origin when Angron is transported away from the planet at the last second and whether the Legion was made up of Terrans or not as a result.

 

That one may be in for a retelling very soon though if ADB has his cauldron brewing.

[frostclaw222]

Okay, AD-B, and I really do hope that these not-insider-info inklings of yours will eventually bear fruit, but walk through the following with me:

 

2nd Founding: All chapters are restricted to a soft maximum size of battle brothers of 1000 astartes, give or take command staff, librarius, apothecarius, armory techmarines, etc. If the Rout created one successor chapter (the Wolf Brothers) and that chapter ceased to exist within a 1000 years, then that leaves something like 9000+ years wherein the Wolves could've grown and replenished their pre-Codex numbers.

 

However, taking into account that by administratively restricting the chapters to 1000 marines, Roboute not only limited the ability of a chapter master to cause any great, Heresy-level upheaval by going rogue, he also indirectly applied an actual resource limitation on those chapters via the Adeptus Mechanicus. The AdMech were suddenly shifted from providing for the loyalist legions to a multitude of smaller cadres of chapter size, each with their own armories that needed sustaining, but conversely, those armories only needed to sustain chapters of 1000+ astartes. So, yeah, more zip codes to deliver terminator suits to, but fewer terminator suits were getting delivered per zip code, and the waiting list was longer. Ergo, the Wolves would've never gotten enough material support to increase rapidly in numbers unless they could somehow find a way of speeding up the transformation processes for making more Space Wolves (via an effort like the Tempering), demonstrate that to the High Lords, and then secure an exemption allowing for increased material support from Mars or other Forge Worlds.

 

Guilliman was actually double-plus smart in how he limited the chapters going forward. This also ensured that the Ultramarines geneseed, barring some extreme cataclysms, would remain the dominant geneseed for thousands of years to come, as there were more chapters of ultramarines than anybody else's legion remnants could come close to on the loyalist side. That, coupled with the relative geneseed stability compared to other primogenitor chapters, would ensure a certain level of advantage for the Ultramarines and their genetic descendants.

 

I voiced this opinion once before and didn't quite get laughed out of the room. The sad thing was, the people saying I was smoking the krak grenade were Ultramarine fans, and I was actually pointing out how well Roboute had his eye on a long-reaching strategy for continued stability for the Imperium's remaining astartes in implementing these limits and keeping his boys having the upper hand. I think the implication ruffled some honor on the blue-and-gold side of the discussion, when in reality, I think it'd have been one of the most insightful, strategically brilliant things a primarch ever did.

 

I dunno, my two pence.

 

Don't get me wrong. I kind of like the notion Chris Wraight put forward, that the very notion of Fenrisian Successors ringing the Eye was enough for Magnus to risk all by attacking the Fang. It provides a nice transition from M31 to M32, and explains some things at M41. It's also been mentioned in some of these threads that it's very suspicious that the Wolf Brothers all went crazy chaos fleshwarpy all at the same time....and I look again to Magnus and wonder if he didn't have a hand in that, too.

 

Long story short, I think too often we look at Roboute and Rogal as great, honorable generals, but not as the political heavyweights they ended up having to be in the immediate years post-Heresy. I think they made some tough decisions, but I also think they were very, very clever dudes, and we might be selling their cleverness short by not looking deeply enough at the larger implications of their decisions. I mean, look at all the other loyal legions, and what's become of their numbers since. The Dark Angels and Blood Angels have a decent number of successors, sure, but some of the more ravaged legions, like the Iron Hands, the Salamanders, the Raven Guard, and the Wolves, never approach those numbers of successors, not even ten thousand years later. The material constraints may have been even more limiting than the post-Heresy legion numbers, going forward, is all I'm suggesting, with credit for those constraints being laid at the feet of the Codex and its author.

[spu00sed]

In the space wolf codex it mentions that sometimes a wolflord will not agree with the current great wolf and will leave the fang with his company and ships. When this happens they are counted amongst the 13th and a new company is formed.

 

Could this of happened to the legion?

 

Russ tells them the plan for splitting all the legions and tells his company lords that if they don’t like it they can leave and search for glory amongst the stars*. Many leave, leaving only enough marines for 2 slightly over strength chapters

 

 

*Reminding them that the fang will always welcome back its’ warriors.

[frostclaw222]

In the space wolf codex it mentions that sometimes a wolflord will not agree with the current great wolf and will leave the fang with his company and ships. When this happens they are counted amongst the 13th and a new company is formed.

 

Could this of happened to the legion?

 

Russ tells them the plan for splitting all the legions and tells his company lords that if they don’t like it they can leave and search for glory amongst the stars*. Many leave, leaving only enough marines for 2 slightly over strength chapters

 

 

*Reminding them that the fang will always welcome back its’ warriors.

 

Okay, this raises a possibility for explaining some of the losses otherwise unaccounted for in terms of 6th legion numbers post-heresy.

 

Obviously, though, since there's no documentation of rogue great companies returning, the latter part of your theory doesn't hold true. Besides, I don't think Russ would be so permissive/flippant with elements of his troops cutting and running and then just showing up a few centuries later. In this one respect, I really kind of think of the Wolves like the mafia. There really isn't any coming back. The 13th Company is the exception, as that was sanctioned.

 

But it does help explain how they never got near to full reconstitution of legion numbers, despite ten thousand years and only one split.

 

It does beg the question, though: how many rogue great companies are out there, and where doe their loyalties lie?

[spu00sed]

My comment of him saying the door open was a bit flippant, but at the same time I can see the wolf king using this as a way to keep his forces large but not officially under his command.

 

Guilliman: “What do you mean you have misplaced 10,000 warriors?”

 

Russ:”Well they didn’t like the legion idea so stormed off seeking a glorious death.”

 

Guilliman:”Can’t you just call them back?”

 

Russ:”They are proud warriors seeking a good death, they will not listen.”

 

Guilliman:*sigh*, “Okay we will say your legion’s strength is only 2,400 and split it in two.”

 

Russ:”Yes I only have command over 2,400 wolves. The rest will never listen to me.”

 

 

Russes problem would have came later. He probably didn’t know that the Cannis Helix meant he could only harvest from Frenris. As such, the “missing” companies slowly died out.

[Freakiq]

Wait, I don't really get this...

 

Space Wolves can't have successors because recruits have to come from Fenris so what's the story behind Björn and the other Terran Space Wolves?

[mactire]

i think it might be that at the start with the first founding you had thousands of terran recruits implanted like all the other legions then when russ was found a huge amount of native fenrisians were also upgraded to astartes this is what gave you the figures in the tens of thousands. i do think that the canis helix was causing some "mutations" leading to the wulfen/werewolf legends on fenris. it may also be the case that not all of the terran recruits were implanted with the canis helix. when you think of the destruction of the conflicts pre, post and during the heresy its not beyond belief that the casulties were huge also your talking about 10000 years of constant conflict.

its also possible that the canis helix is unique to fenris and that its use off-world could lead to the mutations, perhaps the wolf brothers home world was closer to the eye and this made it more open to chaos. this could be worth considering imo because the fenrisian relationship with chaos seems to differ from a lot of planets - there seems to be little or no mutation among the native population, the rune priests use the warp in different ways to other librarians and also the use and effectiveness of talismans and runes seem unique to fenris. also given their strong superstitions it might be that one failed attempt at splitting the legion might have been enough to put them off it for good.

as regards to recent numbers imo each company is closer 200 marine when you include transport etc plus the great wolfs company (priests, scouts ,dreadnaughts etc.) this would give a figure up around the 3000 mark. when you then consider that they only recruit from fenrisian warriors proven in battle nowadays it would explain how present numbers are maintained.

[Legatus]

But also remember, once the Codex was applied, each legion became a chapter, and had to make due with a chapter's level of resource support from the Imperium and the Mechanicus. If you're down around two thousand astartes, keep going out there and fighting in conflicts, and are only recruiting from one sparsely populated deathworld, and all the material reinforcement you're getting is structured towards a support model of 1000 astartes, then that's seriously going to hamper ramping back up to legion strength.

Hm, that never occurred to me. Though the Black Templars seem to be able to get by with significantly larger forces than usual. (They also seem to get by without Librarians for psychic screenings, but that is another matter.)

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Roboute was a genius in this regard, because it assured Ultramarine successor dominance for the next ten thousand years: there were just more of them, and splitting them up into smaller units placed a glass ceiling between the other legions and ever reaching those numbers of chapters/marines ever again.

Yeah, you are still wrong though... :)

 

 

I voiced this opinion once before and didn't quite get laughed out of the room. The sad thing was, the people saying I was smoking the krak grenade were Ultramarine fans, and I was actually pointing out how well Roboute had his eye on a long-reaching strategy for continued stability for the Imperium's remaining astartes in implementing these limits and keeping his boys having the upper hand. I think the implication ruffled some honor on the blue-and-gold side of the discussion, when in reality, I think it'd have been one of the most insightful, strategically brilliant things a primarch ever did.

...mainly because there are some issues, which had been pointed out to you, such as Guilliman "dying" a thousand years before any further founding occured (Guilliman died 100 years after the Second Founding, Third Founding was about a thousand years after the Second Founding), and issues with the geneseed of the other gene-lines only later becoming apparent. So the notion that Guilliman had arranged for the other gene-lines to rarely being used, and that the High Lords/Adeptus mechanicus would primarly use Ultramarines gene-seed as ordered by Guilliman a thousand years after he had gone, remains an unsupported conspiracy theory.

[frostclaw222]

Actually, Legatus, check the most recent C:SM. It specifically states (and I'll provide the page ref tomorrow when I've got it in front of me) that the successor Ultramarine chapters still pay fealty to the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. Sounds like somebody was looking for a power bloc. Now, whether that was Roboute's instruction or just rabid loyalty to Ultramar itself, none of us can say. And I think we could argue that all successor chapters give a little more weight to the "mother" chapter that still bears the legion's colors (the Ba successors, for instance), so don't think I'm cherry-picking.

 

Where I disagree with your last is on the following two points:

 

1) This doesn't make Guilliman a bad guy. I actually think it makes him an even better administrator in the Emperor's torporous absence, and yet I get the sense you are disagreeing with me at least in part because you think I'm knocking Roboute. I actually think this would make him even more of a strategic genius.

2) The "death before 3/5ths paid off" argument doesn't hold water. If the Ultramarine Legion split at the 2nd Founding sufficiently that they already outnumbered other Legions' successor chapters, that majority at that point would provide them with a much larger likelihood of UM geneseed being selected at subsequent foundings merely by dint of there being so ding-dang much of it. I mean, even if all legions' geneseed were equal in purity/stability, 3/5ths of the total is still 3/5ths of the total. Add in the instability and/or concerns over purity of some of the other legions' geneseed (Wolves, Salamanders, BAs after the death of Sanguinius), and you suddenly see two legions--the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists--having a pretty decent upper hand when it comes to both random and nonrandom selection, with or without a primarch there to leverage it. All the pieces were already in place before the primarchs started disappearing. Think of it this way: I put all 200,000 bucks on one spot on the roulette table, or I spread it out to 20 spots. How much better are my odds compared to the guy who only has 2 spots with a wager on them, when under the previous scenario, we had fairly equal chances despite the size of the wager?

 

Agree with you on the Librarius BT issue, which heretofore hadn't occurred to me. As for how the BT got bigger...a very good question, particularly when the Imperial Fists seem to be pretty much straight up and down Codex. The initial impulse is to argue that they're fleet-based, but so are the Fists. I guess the next argument would be initiate-to-novice ratios, and the inherent larger turnover caused by having their novices in squads that do a lot more assaulting than traditional novices. But then there's the Blood Claw problem to that argument. I mean, it might mitigate the need for more power armor due to novices dying like flies after beefing up the rolls, but it doesn't cover the fact that the Templars have managed to amass that many marines. And it's not like the Imperial Fists had the Heresy off or anything; I mean, they were the line astartes at the Siege.

 

Is it possible that it was all just a happy coincidence? Sure. But, after all the immaturity and impetuousness of some of their brothers being displayed in the HH novels, I've gone back and looked at Rogal and Roboute, and I'm actually growing to admire the restraint, forethought, and genius of these two in particular, and I'm beginning to think they might have been capable of such long-term strategy. But when Dorn soldiered off after the Siege to crusade, Roboute found himself in a place where he could actually put such strategies into play.

 

Again, I agree to disagree with you, and I'll be the first to admit, there's no smoking gun here. But I'd like to think at least one primarch was actually worthy of the hype.

 

Anyhow, my two pence.

[Legatus]

While such a ploy would have been pretty "clever", it would also have been selfish and underhanded. Something a lot of critics try to attribute to Guilliman, inspite of him ending up commanding only a single Chapter for the remaining hundred years of his life.

 

At the time of the Second Founding the Ultramarines accounted for not quite half of the created Chapters (the sources say they accounted for more than half at some point during the Scouring, but if you add up the number of Chapters created, the 24 Ultramarine successors are outnumbered by the combined 27 Chapters created from the other Legions. That is, of course, until those numbers are being retconned by GW.) You are then assuming that a thousand years after Guilliman's death, when it was time for a Third Founding, the High Lords/Mechanicus deliberately chose to make a majority of the newly created Chapters from Ultramarines gene-seed, instead of maybe balancing the gene-seed sources between the existing sources. Obviously we know a lot of reasons why this or that Legion's gene-seed is not used that much, but that was not known (and certainly not "arranged") by Guilliman at the time the Codex was implemented.

[frostclaw222]

Okay, going to have to be brief here, as I'm about to start my day over here. So, please, forgive the brevity.

 

I'm in no way suggesting Guilliman did it for selfish reasons. Yes, he might have been a little underhanded in its application, but I think he looked at his scions as the most reliable in terms of loyalty, along with Dorn's, perhaps. When you add into the equation a lot of the post-Heresy discoveries (BAs with psychic wounding from the death of their primarch leading to rage issues, the Wolves basically doing their own thing as ever, Manus's throwing away of his elites at Istvaan in anger, Corax possibly compromising the geneseed by experimenting at accelerating the templating process, etc), he might not have been doing it to achieve dominion for himself so much as preserve his father's empire with the most reliable cadres he can find. Despite the rap some people lay on him, Roboute doesn't seem to me the guy who'd betray his brothers like that. However, in a period following a massive betrayal wherein nobody really knew who was friend or foe, you'd be forced to go with what/who you knew you could trust.

 

As for the numbers: I think my "odds on favorite" argument still holds water. Whether greater or just below 50% of total, there would remain a much higher probability that Ultramarine geneseed would be selected. It's negative attrition over time, with the Ultras having the advantage of numbers at the start of it. And while some of the genetic weaknesses may not have been apparent at the time of the Codex being implemented, other issues (the outsiders' view that the Wolves were merely savages, for example) would still have been present and had weight.

 

At any rate, as much as I'm looking forward to the rest of the HH series, I'm actually also looking forward to the Scouring being documented. I think politically, it's at least as interesting as the Heresy itself, with all the shifting and transforming of the Imperium's structure and the fact that the remaining primarchs are left to themselves (with the high lords, of course) to hold piece back together the tattered remnants of their father's empire, without his presence and guidance. Who knows, maybe we'll see a couple primarchs debate this very theory, whether true or not?

[calgar101]

I sort of agree with you Frostclaw, Guilliman is my favourite Primarch, I'll try not to be biased. I do think he intended to create a power bloc out of Ultramar but not to try and usurp the throne but because he could only trust his Astartes and that realm. How can he fully trust his remaining brothers? Even if they fought for the Emperor during the heresy, Roboute has been through two heresy's; Gallan and Horus. He isn't sure how the future is going to play out, will he or any of his brother survive the following years? He plans for an Imperium without the Emperor or Primarchs to lead it, one that has humans (with all their faults) at its helm. If a Primarch can fall then so can an Astartes and a human, Guilliman draws up a plan alongside the High Lords that makes sure that no one can wield a large portion of the Imperiums military might and avoid another Heresy or limit the damage of some thing like that happening again.

 

As for the creation of chapters well two reasons, no one can wield the power of the legions and the changing of the Astartes role. Every one bangs on how good the legions were (yes they were awesome) but a million marines is still a million marines; their number or power doesn't change if in legion form or spread out as chapters. Yes in a warzone a legion is more effective due to its size but they are quite ponderous in responding to threats. The Imperium was in ruins, the Great Crusade over and thus rapid strike forces were needed to respond to the myriad and numerous threats. Thus chapters were born. Guilliman was making and putting in place checks and measure to enable the balance of power could never fall too much in any ones hands, a bit like Hitlers generals in WW2. However we do not know if Guilliman intended for this to last 10 millennia? Who knows if he survived log enough he may have thought that the Astartes had to be reformed again? Larger chapters to respond to the new threats, Necrons, Tyranids and Tau?

 

But I do think he intended Ultramar to be a bastion within the Imperium, a safe haven if you like. Did he envision his geneseed being used the most? Who knows, we do know he was a brilliant strategist and logician, so I wouldn't put it past him. He could trust his gene sons the most and so would make sense for him to try and have his Astartes have the largest presence. Guilliman intended that another Heresy was to be avoided and not take control himself but I bet he did try and weight some power in his favour as he could trust himself above anybody.

[Legatus]

As for the numbers: I think my "odds on favorite" argument still holds water. Whether greater or just below 50% of total, there would remain a much higher probability that Ultramarine geneseed would be selected.

Aside from the assumption being made that the High Lords would proceed to use the genetic material that was already in the large majority, and not attempt to get a more even distribution of the viable genetic sources, this also somewhat rests on the assumption that Guilliman knew, at the moment he was formulating the plan to reform the Legions into Chapters, that the Ultramarines Legion would be at full strength by the time that plan would be implemented, while all the other Legions would not. That could easily not have been the case. The Raven Guard managed to split into 4 Chapters, so we cannot say why the Salamanders did not manage to do the same. The Raven Guard even attempted to replenish their stock via shady means, but failed to achieve positive results. The Blood Angels split into 4 and the White Scars into 5 Chapters, so had not the Imperial Fists Legion obsessed with hunting down the traitors and devoted more time to rebuilding their ranks, they could probably have produced some more successors as well. The Dark Angels were not that badly hurt in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, but they would suffer horrible casualties later when they returned to Caliban and were attacked by the Fallen.

 

Isn't it a bit funny that Guilliman was the one indtroducing the reforms, and now, ten thousand years later, his gene-line is the by far dominant one? Yes, but we are explicitely told why it turned out this way (large Legion, stable gene-seed, reliable/adherent to doctrine, issues with the other gene-lines, etc). Since we are not told that Guilliman had planned for his successors to be and stay in the majority, that is what is called a "conspiracy theory".

[Marshal Rohr]

It not a scheme, it's just using the abundant materials at hand. You have a ton of pure and stable geneseed, and 8 other sources that are less abundant and some have serious flaws.

 

 

It only makes sense to use what you have. In reality using the other 8 sources is filler to keep the numbers at quota. If you need to create 20 chapters in a founding, and use your stock of UM geneseed for 18 of them, it's not a conspiracy, it's simple math. If I have 20 apples, 5 oranges, and 3 peaches and need to provide 23 pieces of different fruit the apples will always outnumber everything else.

 

And I'm pretty sure geneseed is neutral until activated by a Primarchs blood, only after the Heresy did the start recycling, right?

[dustermaker]

I don't know if this has been brought up before or not, and it is purely me just thinking out loud. What if the Space Wolves, after giving half their armory, fleet, etc.. learned that something was wrong or corrupt with their new successor chapter. They have fought other marines before, imo this wouldn't be something totally out of the question. Then after the Wolf Brothers are all but destroyed they never really speak of them again and just say they died off because of some gene flaw. It would also explain why the Wolves never really had the numbers for another successor or really the will to make a new one.

 

After saying that, I do really like the Space Wolves and am not trying to bash them in any way.

[Captain Idaho]

Ultramarines discussion in a thread called "Space Wolf Legion". Can you guess what I am going to say?

 

Don't make me get all super-heated portable flame based weapon on this thread. Other Mods are far less tolerant of this sort of thing (I appear to be the most forgiving out of the bunch of them it seems), so this is the best warning I can give. Take the hint guys.

[frostclaw222]

Idaho, totally my fault. Apologies. My intent was to suggest how my "conspiracy theory" about Roboute may have impacted the Wolves' post-Scouring ability to rebuild their numbers of marines, and the inherent limitations placed upon that effort by the Legions-to-Chapters transition from an available material support aspect, and apparently we ended up going too far down the rabbit hole.

 

Sorry to anyone who ended up with blue and gold bling in their mjod. :)

[Captain Idaho]

Well there is a certain amount of cross over initially so it's an understandable direction of discussion. We just have to be mindful of how far a discussion goes off topic.

 

No harm, no foul.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I always assumed that the Space Wolves were a small legion to begin with (80K if we're using the new Raven Guard logic), lost half of their number in the battle for Prospero (they were fighting another Legion on their home world don't forget) and then gradually lost forces across the age of darkness and the scouring etc. That would say leave them quite depleted when they split in half again to form the Wolf Brothers.

This is the most likely explanation. The Space Wolves, just prior to the Heresy, attacked a Space Marine Legion on its own planet. Their casualties were probably horrendous. Then they get dragged into the battles of the Heresy and the Scouring, without time to properly replenish their numbers.

[TennisBall]

Of course worrying about what happened to even 77,000 Space Wolves is nothing compared to what happened to the Ultramarines. If that legion had 250,000 marines at the beginning of the heresy and there are only 20 something chapters created from them, then during the heresy and the scouring some 200,000 Ultramarines disappear or die.

[Legatus]

Yes. Obviously that part of the fluff made much more sense when the Ultramarines Legion had been 25.000 strong. Apparently the fluff is now being retconned to explain that there had been hundreds of Second Founding successors of the Ultramarines. Probably more of the other Chapters as well, so thirty-ish Imperial Fists successors instead of three. The Space Wolves will likely still only have split into two Chapters (it is kind of a basic part of their fluff) and the Salamanders have no known Second Founding Successor, being the ones to then sorely stick out. So, yay for retconning the Legions into formations of 100.000! :)