Liquidice Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 You may find out that the Ultramarines may be around 200k strong and that they fought a full scale word bearers/World Eaters attack on Calth. I would not be surprised if they lost half the legion there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2966990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I did note that IA11 along with some other SW fluff changes (full scale werewolves anyone) States "at least two chapters in the second founding came from the space wolves" so maybe GW has noticed the numbers issue coming from the numbers recon. I think there will be few of these... it maybe nothing at all. but GW fluff can change here a test for the oldies What was the Ultramarines and Space wolves original planets and leaders? What was Leman Russ's rank in 1st ed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 . Their casualties were probably horrendous. that's just pure guessingwork. In prospero burns Horus expresses disappointment at how much damage the 1000th sons do to the SW's saying he had expected better. Also the wolves have a force of sisters of silence with them and the golden boys(can't come up with their name at the moment,dammit!). If the wolves had been depleted i'm pretty sure it would also have been mentioned by now in one of the books. On the argument of prospero these things should be taken into account: -magnus shielded the space wolves on there way to prospero because he knew what had to be done. he had broken his fathers law and dissapointed him deeply. In fact, he had just ruined the whole future for the imperium. he knew he would get a serious spanking! This made that the 1000th sons were ill prepared for the assault and the space wolves could land relatively harmless. -Magnus orders his men to stand down and locks himself up in his chamber, so now you've got just the prospero PDF force fighting a legion -when the 1000th sons take action(despite magnus ordering not to) they find themselves unable to do their sorcery because of the sisters of silence, atleast for a big part. -magnus didn't stand by his men while russ did, so you've got a primarch wrecking things and a primarch locked up in his room. it's easy to see who will tipp the balance even further. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 . Their casualties were probably horrendous. Everything is pure guesswork. But part of intelligent, rational deduction comes from careful analysis. Intelligent, rational deduction tells us, based on the fact that the Space Wolves split roughly in half, that they only had the equivalent of two, perhaps three, and stretching it at four, Chapters worth of Marines. GW has retconned tons of fluff with the new HH novels and yet that bit of fluff has stayed the same throughout. They had to get to that small of a number somehow. Reason dictates they had been reduced in numbers. This is indisputable fact. Either we assume the Space Wolves were whittled down through sheer incompetence, or we assume that they were reduced in numbers by fighting worthy adversaries like the Thousand Sons and later during the Scouring. There's two sides to this coin. I feel like the Space Wolves were probably worn down by the extensive fighting on Prospero and onwards, but hampered by Fenris's inability to supply fresh troops fast enough. If you want to believe the Space Wolves just sucked at warfare and logistics so bad that the Raven Guard rebuilt faster, be my guest, I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 The problem is your using fluff from two different periods the fluff about 2 chapter comes from the time when legions where 10k therefore the wolves the wolves casualties are 6-8k when it was written. if you compare different perods of fluff you always get issues like why did the Ultramarines change primarch? because GW rewrote the fluff....... Why did the UM change homeworld ? because GW rewrote the fluff....... it not that emperor gave them to wrong guy Also the space wolves take on the Alpha legion on their way to earth and tell the white scars get to earth rather than help them so probably take a lot casualties then the recon has caused many number issues like how did the UM fall from 250k to 25k while sitting out most heresy according to fluff so far Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 but once a source mentions something as depleted it is considered depleted, before that happens we need to base our opinion on the wolves their number right after prospero as not so thinned out.(see earlier comment). On the other hand they were a force small enough to only split once. with the old 10K number this was perfectly fine given that after the assault on tisca russ had 7000 space wolves with him howling (and we even don't know if this was the entire space wolf legion since prospero was conquered with a mere two waves). then comes the route to terra, and afterwards the scouring, both considerably draining numbers. however with the retconned legion sizes (lets take 70000 as their starting legion size,making them smaller then the ravenguard) the maths dont add up: prospero: russ has 7000 wolves with him at tisca right after the assault, say this were all the space wolves there were left, that's only 10% of his force remaining! this would make them rather depleted no? and yet the fluff points out that horus had hoped for more casualties with the space wolves. given the actuall succes of prospero burns a fatality number of 20-30% sounds more logical there in lies the whole problem, prosperro was a succes, and when the space wolves were on their way to terra they were still a force sizable enough to make horus affraid and risk it all in a challenge to the emperor. this would mean the space wolves had to take enormous casualties during the scouring to actually make themselves depleted. in order to split them only in two chapters, taken that they follow the codex numbers (which is yet another point that can be agrued about). and yet we are not aware of any mayor battle during the scouring that the space wolves participated in and made them suffer those enormous losses. basicly it boils down to the fact that games workshop screwed over with the huge numbers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 basicly it boils down to the fact that games workshop screwed over with the huge numbers My point exactly. It is like the sole goal was to make the Horus Heresy stories more "epic", without ever considering the repercussions for established fluff like the Second Founding, which is like the fundamental piece of Space Marine history. And it is not only an issue because of Second Founding numbers. Some of the Legions, like the Space Wolves and the Salamanders, were also said to have kept some traditional organisations from their Legions, which again made more sense when they were supposed to be ten thousand strong Legions. The Space Wolves had 13 Great Companies. In a "small" Legion of ~7,000 that would amount to about 500 warriors per original Great Company, now reduced to about 150 warriors in the current Chapter. The Salamanders had used seven Grand Companies, one for each major settlement on Nocturne. Again, in a "small" Legion of ~7,000 that would amount to 1,000 warriors per Grand Company. Numbers wer are used to. However, if the Legions had been around 70,000 in size, then one Space Wolves Great Company would have been around 5,000 strong, and a Salamanders Grand Company would have been 10,000 strong (!). Now that is a bit excessive. Maybe GW will change that to 70 Grand Companies for the Salamanders. Ten for each major settlement of Nocturne. Or maybe the humongous size of their formations help explain why the Salamanders have a reputation of slower reaction times, here as a force rather than as individual fighters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 basicly it boils down to the fact that games workshop screwed over with the huge numbers My point exactly. It is like the sole goal was to make the Horus Heresy stories more "epic", without ever considering the repercussions for established fluff like the Second Founding, which is like the fundamental piece of Space Marine history. Remember, the larger numbers were set by the IP department far in advance of the novels, when the Heresy was finally detailed in the Visions books, and the Sabretooth card game, under GW's watchful eye. In fact, if you look at the novel series, even they used the older, smaller numbers for the first 13 novels. Thirteen novels, over several years, before they started using the newly established numbers. The novels really have nothing to do with it, beyond finally bringing the numbers into the public eye. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 and you suddenly see two legions--the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists--having a pretty decent upper hand when it comes to both random and nonrandom selection, with or without a primarch there to leverage it. Actually, if you think about it, the White Scars and possibly the Iron Hands probably have more 3rd Founding (and later) successors than the Imperial Fists. Their gene seed has no flaws we've been made aware of, they are mostly Codex adherent. why did the Ultramarines change primarch? because GW rewrote the fluff.......Why did the UM change homeworld ? because GW rewrote the fluff....... Wat? Guilliman has been the Ultramarines primarch and they have been from Macragge for over twenty years, for as long as the term Primarch has been used as far as I can tell. In the original fluff, Horus and Russ were both just generals, not Primarchs, but really, nobody uses the RT era fluff when determining canonicity anymore. What source lists a different home world/primarch for the Ultramarines? And I'm being serious, I'd actually like to read it. I have most of the old stuff, and I don't remember seeing that anywhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Remember, the larger numbers were set by the IP department far in advance of the novels Oh yes, I am not blaming some BL authors here. I am blaming GW. Or rather, I assume this one is on Alan Merrett. As the GW head IP guy, his word is basically "canon". But I cannot help but question a lot of the decisions that had been made. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 edit:we need to figure out how and where the space wolves suffered casualty rates great enough for them to make them with only 4000 maximum left (if we follow the codex figure and take the wolf brothers were 1000-2000 max)?. the way i read it the sacking of prospero was a great military succes given the task they had to perform and the space wolves legion came out of it with expected casualty rates,which were great none the less but in my opinion not more then 50% if even 50% (a 30%figure seems more logical). or, were they indeed depleted after prospero burns? i also seem to recall russ having 7000 space wolve with him howling but that might have also been in a thousand sons. if it was in prospero burns were these the wolves russ had with him at the pyramid of tisca, or on the whole of prospero? did the space wolves deploy their entire legion in such a short period? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viridia Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Remember, the larger numbers were set by the IP department far in advance of the novels, when the Heresy was finally detailed in the Visions books, and the Sabretooth card game, under GW's watchful eye. In fact, if you look at the novel series, even they used the older, smaller numbers for the first 13 novels. Thirteen novels, over several years, before they started using the newly established numbers. The novels really have nothing to do with it, beyond finally bringing the numbers into the public eye. since you actually wrote prospero burns you are the best source to ask how large a blow was struck to the space wolves. A D-B is actually Dan Abnett? :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Remember, the larger numbers were set by the IP department far in advance of the novels, when the Heresy was finally detailed in the Visions books, and the Sabretooth card game, under GW's watchful eye. In fact, if you look at the novel series, even they used the older, smaller numbers for the first 13 novels. Thirteen novels, over several years, before they started using the newly established numbers. The novels really have nothing to do with it, beyond finally bringing the numbers into the public eye. since you actually wrote prospero burns you are the best source to ask how large a blow was struck to the space wolves. A D-B is actually Dan Abnett? :lol: whoop massive mistake on my part! damn finals! *bangs head against the wall repeatedly* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Remember, the larger numbers were set by the IP department far in advance of the novels Oh yes, I am not blaming some BL authors here. I am blaming GW. Or rather, I assume this one is on Alan Merrett. As the GW head IP guy, his word is basically "canon". But I cannot help but question a lot of the decisions that had been made. I getcha. I'm always fearful when it comes to needing to make ultra-sure there's no potential for misquotes, so don't mind my rabid interjection above. edit:we need to figure out how and where the space wolves suffered casualty rates great enough for them to make them with only 4000 maximum left (if we follow the codex figure and take the wolf brothers were 1000-2000 max)?. the way i read it the sacking of prospero was a great military succes given the task they had to perform and the space wolves legion came out of it with expected casualty rates,which were great none the less but in my opinion not more then 50% if even 50% (a 30%figure seems more logical). or, were they indeed depleted after prospero burns? i also seem to recall russ having 7000 space wolve with him howling but that might have also been in a thousand sons. if it was in prospero burns were these the wolves russ had with him at the pyramid of tisca, or on the whole of prospero? did the space wolves deploy their entire legion in such a short period? Hey, dude. I'm Aaron, not Dan, so I wouldn't wanna speak for his novel. Like all of 40K, a lot comes down to what the writer themself thinks, and leaves a lot open for fan interpretation. Solid answers will always be rare, and this is on a topic that I'm not intimately bound to, exactly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hey, dude. I'm Aaron, not Dan, so I wouldn't wanna speak for his novel. Like all of 40K, a lot comes down to what the writer themself thinks, and leaves a lot open for fan interpretation. Solid answers will always be rare, and this is on a topic that I'm not intimately bound to, exactly. a massive mistake on my part, i blame it on an overdose of studying! :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ming Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 OK, I see it as such, and this what I try to tell myself so I don't go insane trying to make the fluff make sense :tu:: First the Wolves take casualties sacking Prospero. Then they get ambushed and/or intercepted by an Alpha Legion fleet. I think someone posted an excerpt from Collected Visions saying that Russ' fleet was getting the business end and that the White Scars had received orders to return to Terra, ASAP. So, to me, that means massive losses in his fleet. I'm betting, if he gets reinforcements to help him out of the trap, it's from the Dark Angels and this is when their drive to Terra starts. If what I remembered to have heard from the people who have shared their 2nd-3rd ed sources is right, Russ and Jonson start helping to free worlds on their way back to Terra. So more causalities. I wonder if they re-take any forge worlds from the Dark Mechanicus (Hurrah for campaign ideas!) Right, so there's all that and then The Scouring. I'm just gonna go out on a limb, and say that from what we've been told about Russ, he wasn't the type to be lax in retaking worlds. Now we get to the good stuff. M41 40k is full of Chapters that have no idea what Legion their gene-seed comes from, let alone when and where they were founded. So, GW says the Legions are about 10 times their size? OK, no problem, the battles are 10 times the size, the causality lists are 10 times as long, and their 2nd founding chapters are 10 times as many. The rest of The Wolves' successors got themselves destroyed sometime between m31 and m36. Unfortunately for us, all records of the successors (except for the Wolf Brothers) were lost during The Age of Apostasy. Or during The Nova Terra Interregnum, or the Age of Redemption, or a spell by the Daemon-Primarch Magnus. Or all of them B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 The rest of The Wolves' successors got themselves destroyed sometime between m31 and m36. Unfortunately for us, all records of the successors (except for the Wolf Brothers) were lost during The Age of Apostasy. Or during The Nova Terra Interregnum, or the Age of Redemption, or a spell by the Daemon-Primarch Magnus. Or all of them B) lol :tu: "but professor i swear i solved my entire test correctly! damn you magnus the thrice cursed!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 States "at least two chapters in the second founding came from the space wolves" so maybe GW has noticed the numbers issue coming from the numbers recon. I think there will be few of these... Whoa! What???? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ming Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 States "at least two chapters in the second founding came from the space wolves" so maybe GW has noticed the numbers issue coming from the numbers recon. I think there will be few of these... Whoa! What???? It could be saying that the Space Wolves Legion created the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter. At least. Yay DIY Space Wolf successors! (j/k ;) ) I'm telling you, it was Magnus. The Curse of the Trojan Horse corrupted the records, every chapter that didn't have a back-up was :D . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 yup IA11 has a lot revelations for the space wolves I cannot recommend it enough States "at least two chapters in the second founding came from the space wolves" so maybe GW has noticed the numbers issue coming from the numbers recon. I think there will be few of these... Whoa! What???? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 this new retcon screws battle of the fang however, unless those other succesors also suffered from a form of genetic instability etc. afterall, destroying the tempering was magnus his only way to prevent the space wolves from creating succesors, an undertaking for which he risked his whole legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Kinda awkward in that case. Magnus, back in the Eye: Haha! I've stopped the Wolves from ever making any Successors! Victory for Chaos! *evil cackling, crashing thunder* Russ waltzes in. Russ: Uhh... yeah... About that. You see, we uhh... We kinda made a few dozen already. Sorry to ruin your fun. Now, down to business. Russ gets out axe with one hand, a beer with the other. Russ: Time to finish what I started! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2967654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 . Their casualties were probably horrendous. that's just pure guessingwork. In prospero burns Horus expresses disappointment at how much damage the 1000th sons do to the SW's saying he had expected better. Also the wolves have a force of sisters of silence with them and the golden boys(can't come up with their name at the moment,dammit!). If the wolves had been depleted i'm pretty sure it would also have been mentioned by now in one of the books. But we've seen practically nothing of the Space Wolves post-Prospero. So their losses aren't really shown yet, whatever degree they are. Plus, they've got another 7+ years of galactic war to survive. this new retcon screws battle of the fang however, unless those other succesors also suffered from a form of genetic instability etc. afterall, destroying the tempering was magnus his only way to prevent the space wolves from creating succesors, an undertaking for which he risked his whole legion As much as I love Battle of the Fang, I wouldn't be surprised to see it suffer from a future retcon in the next Space Wolves codex. Of course, that's likely not going to happen anytime soon. Again, it's just a guess, but one of the changes with increased Legion sizes could totally turn out to be Space Wolf Successors, one way or another. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2969785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The most imporatnat thing to remember about GW fluff is that it is all lies, rumors, and propaganda. As evidence I'll quote this truth about the Ultramarines as published by GW (White Dwarf, Issue 97, published Jan 1988) : http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/NewBitmapImage.png To wit, the Ultramarines are a Third-founding Chapter and not a Heresy-era Legion, although they do have the gene-seed of the original traitor legion... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2969804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 As much as I love Battle of the Fang, I wouldn't be surprised to see it suffer from a future retcon in the next Space Wolves codex. Of course, that's likely not going to happen anytime soon. Again, it's just a guess, but one of the changes with increased Legion sizes could totally turn out to be Space Wolf Successors, one way or another. if they really did that i just feel pitty for magnus and the thousand sons. makes me more inclined to give them a tap on the shoulder while giving them some mjod than to blast them to kingdom come Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232695-space-wolf-legion/page/5/#findComment-2969808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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