Space Wolf Legion

[eyeslikethunder]

As much as I love Battle of the Fang, I wouldn't be surprised to see it suffer from a future retcon in the next Space Wolves codex. Of course, that's likely not going to happen anytime soon.

 

Again, it's just a guess, but one of the changes with increased Legion sizes could totally turn out to be Space Wolf Successors, one way or another.

 

I think this would great as we see players in the SW forums all the time asking if they can make successor chapters. Lost companies just don't quite have the same feel about them.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As much as I love Battle of the Fang, I wouldn't be surprised to see it suffer from a future retcon in the next Space Wolves codex. Of course, that's likely not going to happen anytime soon.

 

Again, it's just a guess, but one of the changes with increased Legion sizes could totally turn out to be Space Wolf Successors, one way or another.

if they really did that i just feel pitty for magnus and the thousand sons. makes me more inclined to give them a tap on the shoulder while giving them some mjod than to blast them to kingdom come

 

Well, they can bring the Battle of the Fang back to what it used to be, simply the Thousand Sons attempting to get revenge for Prospero, rather than furthering the whole "yeah, the Space Wolves are pretty much as anti-Chaos as the Grey Knights are, and are so awesome at beating other Marines that the Emperor had to limit them to recruiting from a single homeworld".

 

...Hang on... Anti-Chaos Space Wolves... new Grey Knights feasting, celebrating and boozing after battles? The Grey Knight geneseed is fixed Space Wolf geneseed!

[paulewaug]

...Hang on... Anti-Chaos Space Wolves... new Grey Knights feasting, celebrating and boozing after battles? The Grey Knight geneseed is fixed Space Wolf geneseed!

 

Use the Best when you want the Best!

;)

 

There is a way to make a Space Wolf Successor Chapter (or two) by way of the Astartes Praeses, it definitely provides some "wiggle room" for them to exist...

 

Not that that helps any numbers issues of splitting the chapter at the 2nd Founding, as it says those appear to have been created during the 2nd Founding, but made entirely "anew" from the Primarch's gene-seed.

 

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Astartes_Praeses

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem is though, Paulewaug, is that as of Battle of the Fang, the Space Wolf geneseed apparently cannot be implanted in anyone other than a native Fenrisian, thus limiting their numbers. Before, we didn't have to deal with that, and it just reeks of something brought in purely to show just how badass the Wolves are, above and beyond all other forces in the galaxy.

That's the reason the Wolf Brothers were destroyed, because they couldn't take in any new initiates.

[Captain Idaho]

There's always a way round things though. Only Fenrisian's can survive Geneseed implantation from Space Wolves? Well what is to stop an organisation with no scruples harvesting Fenrisian's, even just a single tribe, and putting them somewhere else in the galaxy?

[eyeslikethunder]

Also the original SW Geneseed worked on terrans so if Adeptus mech had some that in storage.....

 

 

Its only later seemingly after Russ and Fenris that it stops working on outsiders.

[eyeslikethunder]

It would have been interesting to see a terran space wolf to see if they were like......

 

Hopefully in future book

 

!

 

 

...Hang on... Anti-Chaos Space Wolves... new Grey Knights feasting, celebrating and boozing after battles? The Grey Knight geneseed is fixed Space Wolf geneseed

 

LOL

[hendrik]

actually the space wolves are on the totally different end of the spectrum when it comes down to anti chaos. general consesus is that rather then turning to the chaos gods a space wolf will transform into a wulfen. and as we know those are not the things you want to have around in your battlelines (heck in wolf's honour the wolf guard battle leader turns into a wulfen and slaughters the entire imperial guard high command and some of his battle brothers)

[Brother Captain Kezef]

actually the space wolves are on the totally different end of the spectrum when it comes down to anti chaos. general consesus is that rather then turning to the chaos gods a space wolf will transform into a wulfen. and as we know those are not the things you want to have around in your battlelines (heck in wolf's honour the wolf guard battle leader turns into a wulfen and slaughters the entire imperial guard high command and some of his battle brothers)

 

Well this is more wishful thinking than anything else.

 

The Chaos Codex clearly has an example of Space Wolves turning traitor and joining Badab's mob. It's been made clear that the only Astartes who have never turned are the grey knights.

 

In Wolf's Honour the Wolves turned wulfen as a reslt of the Thousand Sons casting some huge fricking spell that was deliberately aimed at causing all the Space Wolves to turn, it was Ragnar who (with a contingent of the 13th) stopped the ritual in time to prevent it being a permamnent thing.

 

It has been hinted that the whle Canis Helix is a result of the Emperor's geneseed interacting with the alredy gene-adjusted native Fenris stock, suggesting that the Wolf Brothers screwed up because they could not replace their losses with Fenrisians.

 

As for their size, Space Wolves selection is more demanding than most chapters and their methods of war where more costly than most. The whole concept of sending in recruits to "learn on the job" is far more costly than the training methods of other chapters. Then you have to factor in the assault on Prospero which (once the Thousand Sons got their act together and Magnus stopped sulking) inflicted massive casualties on the wolves, it's understandale that the chapter could be reduced to around four thousand Astartes who where then split in half to form the wolf brothers giving the rough number of two thousand stated in battle for the fang.

[hendrik]

the chaos dex thing is the only reference for any space wolves joining with chaos and even about those we do not know if they sore loyalty to one of the chaos god.

the wolf's honour mentioning you make is actually what is understood as the anti-chaos defence. when the evil magic hit them it caused them to turn wulfen. i started a topic a while back about understanding the curse of the wulfen a while back and it contains a lot of qoutes from the books. here's a link:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=244223

note that it's more about the transformation into a wulfen and how they look. but in general it has always been seen as the space wolves their last line of defence against chaotic sorceries. rather then infused or the likes with them the inner wolf takes over and they turn wulfen. examples of this are both found in wolf's honour and prospero burns and have led to a belief that instead of being able to get chaos blessings or the likes a space wolf exposed to such powers will turn wulfen instead

[Lord_Caerolion]

They do seem more resistant to physical corruption and mutation, courtesy of the Curse of the Wulfen as you mention, but they're just as easy to corrupt spiritually as any others. We also know that there's the Chaos warband of Skyrar's Dark Wolves, first seen in the Fenris sector, and GW has shown off an army of Khorne-corrupted Space Wolves on their homepage before, so they can indeed fall to the Dark Gods. They're far more likely to change to Wulfen and stay relatively sane thanks to their more primal mindset, in my opinion, but they can still fall. Everyone can fall to Chaos, the Wolves are no exception.

[eyeslikethunder]

Then you have to factor in the assault on Prospero which (once the Thousand Sons got their act together and Magnus stopped sulking) inflicted massive casualties on the wolves

 

They can not been that massive as Horus states at the end of prospero burns "The wolves remain in play...Vlka Frenrya remain stark and extant danger to me".

 

 

 

After 1K sons fail to live up to horus's plans. The wolves fight the Alpha legion and during the scouring go hunting the traitor legions in the eye of terror.

 

I suspect the Alpha legion surprise attack to more significant factor as the AL has surprise and numbers exactly what the SW have on prospero.

 

Then the battle at Tallarn

 

Also if they were a small insignificant force why do the DA delay for them on their way back to earth. suggesting they are they have mililtary merit to the DA otherwise they would have just left them (especially given their relationship)

 

and the tour through the eye of terror killing traitors in Chaos's backyard would come at some cost I expect.

[WolfLordKejl]

In the book it does describe as Space Wolves joining chaos, and we see it in the Chaos codex as already stated. However, the Space Wolf dex states that Wolf Lords can and will sometimes leave the fang with their company because they don't like which ever great wolf is in power. This would account for entire companies heading off and out into space to form their own crusade of a sorts.

 

This doesn't mean the legion is split apart, it just simply means that the chapter is probably over strength and there isnt much the Imperium can do about it. This would also not be enough of a reason for another chapter to go after them when they clearly haven't broken any real rules.

 

Several chapter appear to be over strength and not falling into " regulation" numbers. The Imperium can only really shake a finger at them.

[Legatus]

However, the Space Wolf dex states that Wolf Lords can and will sometimes leave the fang with their company because they don't like which ever great wolf is in power. This would account for entire companies heading off and out into space to form their own crusade of a sorts.

Well, without the proper facilities (and not to mention suitable recruits from Fenris) such a company would not survive for much longer than a couple of centuries. So it is not like there are 20+ companies of the last ten thousand years out there somewhere. There are one or two such companies, tops. However, there might be the remains of the previous companies burried somewhere on a distant world, or floating silently in a derelict ship.

 

 

This doesn't mean the legion is split apart, it just simply means that the chapter is probably over strength and there isnt much the Imperium can do about it. This would also not be enough of a reason for another chapter to go after them when they clearly haven't broken any real rules.

 

Several chapter appear to be over strength and not falling into " regulation" numbers. The Imperium can only really shake a finger at them.

The "roughly one thousand warriors" is described as a "guideline", and it is explained in the Space Marine Codex that Chapters will often exceed those numbers in times of prolonged warfare. Educated estimates put the Space Wolves at somewhere around 1.800 warriors, which while significantly over strength is not yet enough to warrant a split into two separate Chapters. The Space Wolves are probably permitted such numbers because they are constantly in a state of war, because they have a bit more leeway as a First Founding Chapter, and because no one messes with the Space Wolves if it isn't absolutely neccessary.

[Conn Eremon]

It has been hinted that the whle Canis Helix is a result of the Emperor's geneseed interacting with the alredy gene-adjusted native Fenris stock, suggesting that the Wolf Brothers screwed up because they could not replace their losses with Fenrisians.

 

In Deliverance Lost, it actually states that the VI Primarch had non-human genetic material, 'possibly canine' in origin. Which gives credence to the idea that Fenrisians are a required recruitment pool, given that they are as you said, already gene-adjusted to varying degrees.

 

However, there can be nothing definitively said until we know more about the Terran-born Space Wolves and their interaction with the Wulfen. If Fenrisian-stock is a requirement, then how could there have been a VI Legion in the first place, founded as it was on Terra?

 

However, there could a really interesting way to keep it in there. That the pre-Fenris Space Wolves were in the same boat as the Thousand Sons. Namely, rampant mutation (more specific in the Space Wolves, of course) and degradation leading to imminent Legion death or execution. The Thousand Sons overcame it thanks to Magnus' deals with Tzeentch. The Space Wolves could have done it by replacing the recruitment stock with a suitable one. Kind of sounds like something Russ would do or say. Find out about the issue, laugh it off and confidently declare that real Fenrisian men would overcome such hardships no problem.

 

Eh, who knows.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Then you have to factor in the assault on Prospero which (once the Thousand Sons got their act together and Magnus stopped sulking) inflicted massive casualties on the wolves

 

They can not been that massive as Horus states at the end of prospero burns "The wolves remain in play...Vlka Frenrya remain stark and extant danger to me".

 

 

 

After 1K sons fail to live up to horus's plans. The wolves fight the Alpha legion and during the scouring go hunting the traitor legions in the eye of terror.

 

I suspect the Alpha legion surprise attack to more significant factor as the AL has surprise and numbers exactly what the SW have on prospero.

 

Then the battle at Tallarn

 

Also if they were a small insignificant force why do the DA delay for them on their way back to earth. suggesting they are they have mililtary merit to the DA otherwise they would have just left them (especially given their relationship)

 

and the tour through the eye of terror killing traitors in Chaos's backyard would come at some cost I expect.

 

 

Where do you go from me saying "massive casualties" to "insignificant force"?

 

I never said the assault on Prospero made the Wolves combat ineffective, i merely stated they would of taken massive casualties, this would of lead to thier decline in numbers. ONE factor, not the sole reason.

 

It has been hinted that the whle Canis Helix is a result of the Emperor's geneseed interacting with the alredy gene-adjusted native Fenris stock, suggesting that the Wolf Brothers screwed up because they could not replace their losses with Fenrisians.

 

In Deliverance Lost, it actually states that the VI Primarch had non-human genetic material, 'possibly canine' in origin. Which gives credence to the idea that Fenrisians are a required recruitment pool, given that they are as you said, already gene-adjusted to varying degrees.

 

However, there can be nothing definitively said until we know more about the Terran-born Space Wolves and their interaction with the Wulfen. If Fenrisian-stock is a requirement, then how could there have been a VI Legion in the first place, founded as it was on Terra?

 

However, there could a really interesting way to keep it in there. That the pre-Fenris Space Wolves were in the same boat as the Thousand Sons. Namely, rampant mutation (more specific in the Space Wolves, of course) and degradation leading to imminent Legion death or execution. The Thousand Sons overcame it thanks to Magnus' deals with Tzeentch. The Space Wolves could have done it by replacing the recruitment stock with a suitable one. Kind of sounds like something Russ would do or say. Find out about the issue, laugh it off and confidently declare that real Fenrisian men would overcome such hardships no problem.

 

Eh, who knows.

 

Makes you wonder, assuming this theory has validity, how much control the Emperor had of where the pods landed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Personally, I always preferred my theory that the Emperor didn't make the Primarchs with the quirks they have, but rather that they were still developing when they were taken, and adapted to the planet they landed on.

[eyeslikethunder]

Are there any quotes suggesting they believe they are legion exercutioners or is just that they have been used this way?

 

 

Of course the difference would be that the wolves will ruthlessly follow their orders while the other WE and NL will ruthlessly do whats neccessary to win even if this exceeds their orders.

 

I suppose as a commander it might depend on what you require....

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Are there any quotes suggesting they believe they are legion exercutioners or is just that they have been used this way?

 

 

Of course the difference would be that the wolves will ruthlessly follow their orders while the other WE and NL will ruthlessly do whats neccessary to win even if this exceeds their orders.

 

I suppose as a commander it might depend on what you require....

 

Throughout the Heresy books there has been a common theme. The Asartes tend to react with doubt and disbelief, some need encouraging to turn traitor (some need to be weeded out entirely). On the loyalist side there is the same angst, Astartes have a hard time accepting the concept of fighting other Astartes, even legions who have been at odds sytill react to that sense of brotherhood and belonging.

 

With one exception.

 

The Wolves have no hesitation, no regret, no sense of doubt when they go after the Thousand Sons. The way they are portrayed as a Legion, not the words of one character lead credence to the theory that they are the executioners. Alone of the legions they seem to have no problems with doing what must be done.

[Marshal Rohr]

I doubt its because they are so much harder than any other legions, more because their culture is based on conflict and survival of the fittest, same as the Fenrisian tribes. When they are ordered to fight another legion, they do it simply because thats what they were ordered to do.

 

I like A D-B's little blurb about them being War dogs and not wolves, simply because wolves have no masters.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I doubt its because they are so much harder than any other legions, more because their culture is based on conflict and survival of the fittest, same as the Fenrisian tribes. When they are ordered to fight another legion, they do it simply because thats what they were ordered to do.

 

I like A D-B's little blurb about them being War dogs and not wolves, simply because wolves have no masters.

For once, I agree with you. I also want to throw in that Russ REALLY didn't like Magnus due to sorcerory/being a psyker and what not, and thus the Wolves cleansing the filthy witches was no problem. The fact that it was one of their brother legion and its primarch meant nothing before upholding their personal beliefs. Why? Because they're SW. Part of their mentality, part of what they value, is their honour and pride, and they value it more than life. To humble themselves to the point where they admit that they are wrong, especially when most of the Imperium agrees, or destroy one of their brothers who they despise...?

 

Why would anyone think that anyone else would be so willing?

[Marshal Rohr]

DAT you often say 'for once' when agreeing with me. And you do agree with me frequently. Maybe we generally agree about all things not related to heresy and chaos traitors? ;)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

DAT you often say 'for once' when agreeing with me. And you do agree with me frequently. Maybe we generally agree about all things not related to heresy and chaos traitors? ;)

That and Dorn. Have to say, not his biggest fan, might put us a little at ends :(

[Russ Brother 92]

IIRC there is a piece in either Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns which actively calls them the "emperor's executioners" - I'll go and check now, but I distinctly remember it coming up, either spoken by Russ himself, Magnus or one of the Custodes.

[Leonaides]

At that point, any chapter would/could have been termed as the Emperors Executioners...