Space Marine Scouts: Yay or Nay?

[JuggerNATE]

I have ten scouts in my army: 4 snipers, 1 heavy bolter, 1 missle launcher, and 4 bolters. When I use them, the only way I get anything accomlplished is when I sit back, snipe and HB the enemy from a distance, and use the bolters for wounds. I have never tried CC Scouts. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a good way to use them that I don't know?

[Koremu]

IMO, ranged Scouts are only worthwhile if the whole army is built expressly to include & support ranged Scouts. So what are you trying to use them with?

 

CC Scouts are great (as are Biker Scouts) for use as a Rapid reaction force and suppression. However, I tend to feel that they absolutely need an LSS, which bumps the cost and eats a slot

[Commander Sasha]

Until he wakes up and sees someone playing in his home field, here's a link to GreatCrusade08's tactica; he runs an ALL Scout army, and apparently does very well with it. Well written articles, all you'll need to know!

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...&blogid=476

[Commander Sasha]

Sorry, double post.

[Something Wycked]

lol you beat me to it Sasha, I was going to cast a Summon GC08 spell.

 

@ OP: If kitted out and used properly, Scouts can be very effective at shooting and melee. GC08 is the man to see with all of these questions.

[Marine Errant]

I always have two five man scout squads in my army. One with telion and a missile launcher, plus sniper rifles, and the second with snipers and a heavy bolter. They are, honestly, a little hit and miss but I do love the figures. Plus they fit well with how I see my army. Telion plus missile launcher is an almost guaranteed hit. Stick them somewhere with a good view and you can threaten anywhere on the board. Well worth it for that alone. The other squad I use as objective campers, using cameleoline to improve the cover saves.

[maturin]

I love scouts. They're so....cute and cuddly!

 

Well, maybe not, but I do tend to like the underdog.

 

Yes, read GC08's writings - they're a great way to start thinking about scouts.

 

Since you've only got the models you have - have you tried just using a small squad of 4 sniper rifles and 1 missile launcher? Infiltrate them on the board (hopefully in cover) to get shots at enemy side armour. It's more effective with Telion to grant his BS6 to the ML, but in any case it's a small cheap scoring unit. It's best to have another mobile unit in your army ready to support them, unless you're ready to sacrifice them...

[Gunslinger87]

I simply love my 5 man scout squad with Telion. 3 Snipers, 1 missile launcher and the dude :-) There's nothing like killing off those pesky IC's that finish comat with one wound left with no other CC unit nearby :-D I've had a game where he killed 3 sergeants with power fists and popped a rhino that was on its way to an objective with that guided missile launcher shot.

 

I'd like to field this as a 10 man squad but I prefer putting these guys all in the third floor of a ruin with an objective and the extra guys usually mean the squad is that much easier to CC. Plus, at relatively low cost (135) I don't mind too much when they underperform. At around 200 I'd usually go for an elite since I already have enough troops.

 

It's all about what you need from them, but in my experience (I have a LSS with CC scouts) the sniper role has been the only viable one. CC oriented armies kill scouts like lowly guardsmen and there isn't much more to use these guys for than late gam objective grabbing with the Land speeder. Plus, these kill points are too easy to give up. I find it strange to take CCW scouts for an extra attack that the regular troops of other armies already have with the bolt pistol that is somehow missing from our "well-rounded" Tactical squads. But I digress :-D

[Cmdr Shepard]

I simply love my 5 man scout squad with Telion. 3 Snipers, 1 missile launcher and the dude :-) There's nothing like killing off those pesky IC's that finish comat with one wound left with no other CC unit nearby :-D I've had a game where he killed 3 sergeants with power fists and popped a rhino that was on its way to an objective with that guided missile launcher shot.

As GK player I really appreciate the ability to allocatr wounds to a particular model. It was the reason for playing Vindicare. However my vindicare rarely payed his points cost back, maybe for Telion will be easier since he costs 1/3 of Vindicare and fire two shots, even though he cannot wound on 2+ and destroy Land Raiders. Increasing a the BS of a single scouts is very interesting, though.

[DarkGuard]

I like the idea of Scouts, but have always struggled to get them to work in my lists. I have a 10 man sniper squad with heavy bolter and camo cloaks for objective sitting, and a 5 man shotgun squad with power weapon for outflanking and being a nuisance. However, I never take the full 10 man sniper squad, preferring a smaller, 5 man squad. The reason for this is that when I take snipers I don't expect them to kill anything, but rather to just sit around and hold an objective and/or not die.

 

At the moment I'm using the 5 man power weapon squad, fortunately our boards are 4x4s, so they don't really need a Storm. Only played one game with them recently, and they killed half a Purgation squad. But then they died horribly, so not sure about them. I'd love to be able to use them well, but finding it difficult. I'm now thinking of having a 5 man unit in a Land Speeder Storm with all manner of meltas attached, could be fun.

[Cmdr Shepard]

At the moment I'm using the 5 man power weapon squad, fortunately our boards are 4x4s, so they don't really need a Storm.

If you play on 4x4 boards have you ever considered to play several "boarding missions"(IA vol.9 expansion) games? You cannot field vehicles except dreads but it's a fun variation to 40k games. Just my thought.

[DarkGuard]

I'm afraid we haven't. None of us either own IA9 or bring one in, and the store don't seem to mind enough to let us know the instructions. Could be interesting, but I can see a lot of people moaning because there's a lot of mech here.

[greatcrusade08]

weird double post

[greatcrusade08]

lol you beat me to it Sasha, I was going to cast a Summon GC08 spell.

 

i felt this sudden pull to check out the tactica forum... makes sense now ;)

i did see this briefly before i slumped into bed this morning, but with no sleep for 24 hours i was way too bleary eyed and incoherant.

 

alot of people struggle to get scouts just right.. in truth they arent the easiest units to use, they have weaker armour, worse BS and WS than thier tactical counterparts.. however they do get all sorts of juicy rules and unit options that you cannot get elsewhere in a space marine army.

 

if your aiming for one or two units and no more then IMO you need to stick to the two principles of scout warfare.. hidden snipers and/or close quarters ownage

snipers are the simple choice, they do exactly what it says on the tin.. they snipe.

i would suggest that the lower BS almost demands a full ten man unit, they certainly need ten to 'gaurantee' (if you like mathhammer) a rend.. but as all dice rolls go some turns they do nothing, others they kill a DP in one turn.

if your taking snipers logic dictates you take camo cloaks to keep them around for longer, although if your taking a ten man squad and you want cloaks your far better off taking the Telion upgrade.. he essentially gives the whole unit claoks for free and is the nastiest sniper since the vindicare.

Telion has two big rules that you need to know:

 

eye of vengeance (EoV) you can allocate his wounds to whichever models you wish.. which means 'hidden fists' and special/heavy weapon carriers cannot hide behind thier units anymore... how many times do we here "this unit existys to get the sergeant into combat"... well begone evil sergeant.

 

voice of experience (VoE) you can 'loan' Telions BS to a member of his squad, he has to forgo shooting himself, but this combo works brilliantly with the ML for sniping tanks and getting that extra wound on an Mc.

 

things to remember, unlike the snipers in his squad, he doesnt have a sniper rifle, so he doesnt wound on a 4+, this is a mixed bag, most opponents are T4 so it matters little, against T3 he will perform better, but generally speaking snipers go for high Toughness targets, so hes better off using VoE to help the heavy get his shot away. Telion can also use his special abilities with his pistol before the charge.. gives you a last ditch attempt to pick off that power weapon wielding nutter before you close for asault.. its important to note that Telion is no slouch in assault either with WS5 and 2 attacks base.

 

i got a little sidtracked with Telion there, but hes one of the best scout options in the dex.. snipers in general are best used to whittle down heavy infantry.. what we call MEQ (marine equivalent) this covers Chaos, necrons anything T4 with a half decent saving throw.. they can also be used in a pinch to target low AV mech/skimmers.. AV10-11 can be penetrated with a rending hit.. in a ten man squad 8 snipers and telion aiming the missile tube will normally rid the world of a rhino or land speeder..

the best use for snipers is to target monstrous creatures, wounding on a 4+ means you can put wounds on greater daemons, carnifexes and the like.. redning hits remove armour saves, so unless they have invs (nids are outta luck) your getting instant wounds.

if your not using Telion, the HB upgrade can be very useful, it can fire as standard or with the hellfire option.. which is a small template, this counters the lower BS of the scouts and wounds on a 2+ making it very deadly to high toughness opponents or enemy who are cramped together

 

as a final note to scout 'campers' (this applies to bolter scouts too) with infiltrate and scout moves, your not restricted into deploying during the normal phase.. you set up after the enemy has deployed regardless of who gets first turn.. its easy to forget how wonderfully tactical this can be.. you can maximise your lines of fire and lines of sight whilst minimising thier proximity to dangerous enemy units.. this combined with thier long range rifles gives them a half decent edge..

of course if you have a ruins in your DZ and a techmarine in your army why not combine all the factors to get 2+ cover saves.. without heavy flamers your opponents wont be able to rid themselves of the scout nuisance sniping off your unit sergeants and heavy weapons.

 

onto the second type of unit.. close quarters madness.

its important to highlight at this point that scouts have Ws3 and a save of 4+, in comparison to normal marines these guys may aswell ride the little bus to school.. an MEQ will hit them on a 3+ instead of 4, this makes alot of difference.

again what this means is you have to play more tactical.. be the bully unit, take down units you know doesnt have many attacks..

the good thing ive found is that you care less if the enemy has a hidden power weapon.. whoop-de-doo you killed a scout ;)

ok the basics of assault scouts.. offensively they are identical to thier assault marine counterparts, they have 3 attacks each on the charge (which is brilliant) and hit most opponents on a 4 (anything Ws7 or better and we need 5's) and with S4 we wound most on a 4 too.. a unit of ten with 30 attacks can cause a fair amount of damage!

a solid choice of targets for me is a nice juicy tactical squad.. if you get the charge your hitting with 30+ attacks against 12.. lower WS be damned, you should still win the fight.. of course you have to be careful not to overeach, the tac squad is the top end of targets id engage.. especially at full strength.

if your snipers hit them first and knock off the sergeant and a trooper or two, id definately spring the cc scouts into action and finish the job.. which is how you define a bully unit.

things like necrons, ork lootas, devestator marines, weaker units like grots and enemy scouts, eldar, tau etc are all fair game for scouts to asault.. with equal or greater numbers your almost gauranteed to walk away with your heads held high.

infact as ironic as it sounds cc scouts is the best way to flush out enemy snipers ;) (bar of course a heavy flamer speeder)

 

the big reason cc scouts are effective is their special rules, scout and infiltrate puts them on the enemy doorstep turn one, which of course limits how much shooting the enemy can weather them down with.. this is probably the wrost part about assault marines, by the time you get into combat half the unit is dead.

now on tghier own scouts cant get into combat turn one, but if your running shrike every single scout suddenly gets a fleet boost and is almost guaranteed first turn charges (alpha strikes as we call them).. this has two effects, firstly your hitting with a virgin scout unit, thats at full strength, secondly its a big knock to your opponents game plans.

there are of course two additional ways to get scouts into combat turn one, the first is with land speeder storms, the second is with scout bikes..

scout bikes have the T5 which makes a huge difference, with a 12" move they are in combat first turn and smashing face.. i really would recommend these guys if anyone has a FA slot spare.. they arent as handy in assault as cc scouts (they have one attack base) but add in a fist and your T5 can carry the day against MEQ opponents.

bikes also have an upgrade whcih is unique for the C:SM dex and thats the astartes greande launcher, its rapid fire and can fire in two different forms

krak grenade: S6, this is brilliant in combo with scout special deployment rules, amny a time ive gotten behind a vehicle/dread and destroyed it with rear armour shots, the second type is frag S3 template.

now that probably doesnt sound very strong, but with 3 in a unit rapid firing, thats 6 templates, even at an average 4 hits per template, you can force alot of saves on enemies with these weapons.. if you know the game well you can maximise how many hits you can get with templates, hit deepstrikers, or smash open a vehcile and hit the uniut as they disembark all cramped together... make the opponent cry with handfuls of dice.

 

ok lastly is the land speeder storm, there are several ideas on how to run these bad boys, i know one chap who has alot of success with a dual HB dakka build

LSS with HB

5 scouts with HB..

sits them in the rear and throws lots of shells at the opponent.

 

the two main builds are the melta and flamer builds, within each one there are multiple ways of running them with different wargear options, but the two types have 'set' uses.

the melta build.. my fave is this tri-melta AV14 torpedo

LSS with MM

5 scouts with combi-melta and meltabombs..

people usually say that the low BS of scouts doesnt make the MM a worthwhile upgrade choice, i respectfully disagree.. yes you miss every second shot on average, but combined with the combi-melta (hitting at BS4 on the sergeant) and the meltabombs.. (first turn they auto hit vehciles) you stand a very good chance of taking out an enemy land raider.

you can add a fist to this unit for taking out secondary vehicles like vindicators/razorbacks/preds and the like, auto hitting with a S8 fist (3 attacks) against rear armour ten usually results in a mess.

 

the second build is the double flame grilled whopper ;)

its LSS with heavy flamer

5 scouts with combi-flamer.. i usually pair iot with a fist, but i know people who forgo the combi and switch to PW and pistol for 4 Pw attacks on the charge.

this unit is a real troop killer, the heavy flamer completely bypasses the low BS of scouts and the power weapon hits from the sergeant really hammer your squad home.. this combo works really well with the LSS cerberus launchers which give the enemy -2Ld when you charge from it.. when you win combatg, the enemy is more likely to flee and never return ;)

 

i hope this covers most of it, im sure ive missed plenty..

[DarkGuard]

GC08, great post. May I ask a question? For an small outflanking unit designed to cause mischief or mayhem, would you recommend shotguns or CCWs? The Sergeant has a power weapon, as IMO, with the squad being small and only having a 4+ save I don't want to risk him not hitting. At the moment they're modelled as shotguns, as I get better shooting running in, but in assault they get worst I suppose. Would CCWs be better, especially as, with them Outflanking, I'm getting in combat quite easily most of the time?

 

Thanks.

[greatcrusade08]

GC08, great post. May I ask a question? For an small outflanking unit designed to cause mischief or mayhem, would you recommend shotguns or CCWs? The Sergeant has a power weapon, as IMO, with the squad being small and only having a 4+ save I don't want to risk him not hitting. At the moment they're modelled as shotguns, as I get better shooting running in, but in assault they get worst I suppose. Would CCWs be better, especially as, with them Outflanking, I'm getting in combat quite easily most of the time?

 

Thanks.

 

its almost dependant on the enemy actually

in terms of shooting a shotgun has twice the shots of a bolt pistol, however the bolt pistol fares better with its AP5 than the shotguns AP-

shotgun scouts have one attack base 2 on the charge whereas cc scouts have 2 attacks base, 3 on the charge..

essentially it doesnt really matter

shotgunners shoot twice and charge with 2 attacks.. in essence 4 attacks

cc scouts shoot once and charge with 3 attacks.. in essence 4 attacks

 

in this direct comparison the bolt pistol is better against enemy with armour 5 or 6.. Ig orks and the like

however an enemy with a higher initiative (5+) will kill some of your scouts before the get to attacks, which means the favour swings towards the shotgunner.

again if your opponent has WS7 or better your ccw scouts need 5's to hit in combat so the shotgunners will fare better only needing 4's to hit.

 

if you using a power fist on a scout sergeant and not taking a combi, always take the shotgun, as for the scouts its personal flavour.. a good balcne is normally best (assume your building an all rounder list) so no more than 50% shotguns IMO.. or 4 shotgun scouts per unit.. of course YMMV

after the intial charge, shotguns become less useful than ccw scouts, in a prolonged assault i take off the shotgunners as causalties first if possible, which allows the cc scouts to hit with thier extra attacks.

 

of course something to consider is the act of removing casualties from shooting and/or assaulting into cover.. there may be situatuons when a charge fails due to these things, so the shotguns allow for a higher number of casualties.. this is only a minor consideration however.

 

bottom line is aslong as your decision is an educated one, then its down to personal preference.. i favour cc scouts myself as they are more useful for when the enemy charges me.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for replying in that great detail GC08. I think I may be sticking with shotguns at the moment, mostly because they are already modelled on the models!

 

However, I think that for a big unit I may well have them half and half, and that would also let me choose between which small units I want.

 

Thanks again.

[maturin]

Keep in mind that only wounds caused in CC will count towards who wins combat - so that might sway you toward CC scouts if you plan on getting them stuck in CC anyways.

[DarkGuard]

Or away. Remember that if you were to win combat and run down an enemy (or force enough wounds to kill Marines off) then you've got your 4+ unit sitting in the open. But if you had less attacks you may be more likely to not cause your enemy to run away in your turn, but in your opponents. Sometimes less is more.

[MagicMan]

But again, if you're in a protracted combat, you lose alot with shotguns as you can only fire them once...

 

 

They look badass though.

[Commander Sasha]

To GC08: you discuss how Scouts fare against Meq; how do you deal with Terminators? 30 attacks on the charge still isn't much when facing 2+ armour, and I don't see you having much AP2/1 in a scout army, nor enough power weapon attacks.

(This is starting to feel like we're all sitting round a fire...tell us, venerable one!)

[greatcrusade08]

To GC08: you discuss how Scouts fare against Meq; how do you deal with Terminators? 30 attacks on the charge still isn't much when facing 2+ armour, and I don't see you having much AP2/1 in a scout army, nor enough power weapon attacks.

(This is starting to feel like we're all sitting round a fire...tell us, venerable one!)

 

to be honest im not a big fan of terminators :cuss .. but they arent unbeatable.

if like me your not packing lots of Ap1/2 then you need the bucket of dice approach to killing termies, this is usually acheived with my thunderfires, but my scout bikes have been known to chop down a 5 man termie squad with thier grenade launchers bolters and assault.

 

generally as i said its buckets of dice, i have taken down lysander and 5 hammernators in one round of combat by shooting and multicharging them with 3 squads of scouts.

although i often favour my ccw scouts, they do well becuase i join them to my counts as shrike, with his re-rolls he can do a few MEQ/TEQ kills per turn, the scouts finish the job..

 

rending snipers can help, they can be hit or miss if relying on rending, i also take a combi-weapon on every sergeant.. even a lowly combi-flamer can causse multiple wounds on a squad of TEQ.. it all helps in the long run

[DarkGuard]

I'd forgotten that you took Shrike. I suppose that weighs the favour to CC Scouts more than shotgun Scouts, as if you're using Fleet to get in combat the shotguns will be wasted and you might as well get the extra attack in combat. It's a unit I do like the look of though. In larger point games have you considered a Chaplain for added kick? Or do the 10th not have a Chaplain, I can never remember.

[greatcrusade08]

I'd forgotten that you took Shrike. I suppose that weighs the favour to CC Scouts more than shotgun Scouts, as if you're using Fleet to get in combat the shotguns will be wasted and you might as well get the extra attack in combat. It's a unit I do like the look of though. In larger point games have you considered a Chaplain for added kick? Or do the 10th not have a Chaplain, I can never remember.

 

yeah tenth have a charlie.. i added a chappy in with my last changes at 1750, im back at 100% scouts (bar the t-fires)