Opinions/Ideas

[PyronusSouria]

Maybe if I explain the premise a little more in-depth, people might see where I'm coming from. It works like a longbow in the sense that the projectile is fired by means of a longbow device. However, the projectile isn't an arrow, as much as it is a thinner, longer version of a bolt. It would have a head like the bodkin arrowhead, except larger, that would contain the mass-reactive component, as well as the diamantine tip. So essentially, it would have a small bolt as an arrowhead, plus a metal shaft that contained additional fuel to carry it the extra distance, as well as make it launch-able on the longbow. Since it has it's own propulsion, at short ranges the firer does not have to calculate the arc, and at longer ranges the arc will be significantly lessened.

 

Since Space Marines are already uncannily accurate with their bolters, my theory is that while they are being trained, the ability to judge distance and calculate an arc becomes so easy for them they can take very little time to reload, place their shot and take it. Of course, this training would be in place of bolter training.

 

In reference to the longbow, someone once said, "Fast, Far, and Accurate. Pick Two." -Sobansa

 

This is kind of my point. A Space Marine who is trained to fire this weapon will naturally fire it faster than the average person. So they halve their speed at a distance, but that distance is significant enough to make up for them losing that speed. Far+Accurate.

 

The other way around, at close range they don't need distance, so their aiming time is significantly reduced and their speed picks up. Fast+Accurate.

 

The Bolter fires mini-rockets, each one self-propelled. The idea that they are considered short range is a little silly. -Shinzaren

 

The reason I figure it would be short ranged is because the mini-rockets would run out of mini-fuel and fall to the big ground :)

 

Overall, I'm not trying to say this is better than the bolter. I'm saying that, while the bolter has this yet unnamed longbow weapon beat at close range, my weapon has it beat at a distance, and could lead to ending up in a fair fight.

 

Also, I think Space Marines with heavy duty looking fancy longbows could look really cool. :P

[Shinzaren]

The range of the bolter has been discussed before, multiple times; and while no consensus has been reached that I am aware, most people seem to accept the idea that a bolter can fire accurately up to 800m or more. Knowing that, what possible use could you have for a longbow, whose sacrifices to speed and complexity would make them untenable in comparison to the bolter? 800m is a really long way, and I have travel believing any arrow could travel that far, even a futuristic one. If the idea is that your 'arrow bolt' could travel farther than a 'bolter bolt', how? What are the bow string and bow limbs made of to provide such long distance strength? How would it be more accurate than the bolter? How would it be more useful than the bolter? I don't mean to sound rude or dismissive, and I apologize if I come off that way, but the longbow idea just seems silly to me.

 

Instead of organized, preloaded clips, carrying multiple rounds, you have to reach into a quiver to remove, nock, and draw an arrow before it can be fired, as opposed to just pulling the trigger or slapping a fresh mag in. Not to mention the size problem. 30 bolts fit into a sickle magazine quite compactly and a marine can carry multiple magazines. On the other hand, a quiver might hold 30 arrows total, and that quiver will take up most of his back, or his hips, depending on location, which limits the amount of ammo he can carry to between 30-60 arrows; while a bolter wielding Astartes can carry up to 120 rounds in half the space. While I know 40k has its oddities (emphasis on melee in the far future?), this one seems odd even for that; if only because it doesn't add anything. The Knight idea can be represented in better ways than the bow and arrow I think. Its sole purpose seems to be adding coolness for the sake of coolness, which is never a good grounds for an idea in an IA.

[Brother Leonidas]

The style of a mideverial chapter is a great idea, stick with it ^_^ .

 

Using crossbows on Scouts would be a great idea, as it is silent, lethal and has high accuricy. A perfect weapon of choice for stealth. You could use Chaos warriors helmets to create a more mideverial look to them.

 

But a great starting point for ideas is the Knightly orders of Caliban. They came from a death world, and the only remaining hightec stuff they had was chainswords, boltpistols and power armour. the rest of the planet was mideverial level of tecnology. Their purpose was to protect the people from the beasts in the forest (deamons kindalike), thus having a noble purpose. The also rode on horses.

 

But i would slope the longbows as they would not be that effective, as a longbow can fire 6 rpm, but a boltgan probably around 500 rpm. But there is a long distance version of the boltgun, the Stalker-pattern boltgun, that has a longer barell, and someting like a ACOG-sight.

 

But instead of horses use bikes with horse galleon figures.

 

Another idea is that each marine gets a personal heraldy.

 

Btw Witchunters can take a combi-weapon: bolter-stake crossbow witch fires a blessed silver bolt that immolates a target in holy fire.

 

These are my ideas

 

Leonidas

[PyronusSouria]

Sorry, I just can't see a bolter firing a shell like that over that kind of distance. As far as I've seen, and I've been reading up, a bolt is knocked out by an initial charge and then propelled solely by solid fuel. From what I've read, about 85-90% of a bolt is dedicated either to exploding or armor piercing, leaving 10% of a 3/4 inch by 2 inch shell dedicated to making it fly. The reason my arrow-bolt concept would fly farther is, while it is a narrower shell, it's much longer, and contains more fuel. Also, it is compounding additional fuel with the launch mechanism of the bow to generate more thrust and flight time. Since it would be fired on a minor arc, it would consume less fuel to create less, but longer, thrust, relying on the arc to add to it's distance.

 

Another point is that these are Space Marines. If we think of a longbow being used by a human, they can obviously only draw, nock and fire an arrow every 5 or 6 seconds. But a Space Marine, with enhanced speed, strength, coordination and overall superiority, as well as years of training on the matter, would have an inherent advantage, perhaps firing an accurate shot at a distance every 2-3 seconds.

 

My idea for coping with ammunition isn't fully formed yet, but the premise would be that there is a carrier along the entire body of the backpack, with a second one just below it. This would be mechanized to push the arrows to the right side of the pack where they could be drawn.

 

I don't want to just give up on this idea, as I'm sure there is a way it can be made to work. I'm enjoying all the criticism and conversation this has sparked, and it has helped me to develop the idea. Any further points against it are welcomed.

[Sigismund Himself]

I would ask what the bows add to the chapter. Are they really that important to the character of the chapter, does it somehow reflect their beliefs? As you can see, it's an idea that requires a lot of work to make people believe it's possible. It also just makes your medieval inspiration rather obvious, which can sometimes pan out badly.

 

For the moment, I'd advise to concentrate on the real motivation and character of the chapter, which is really the heart of what an IA should. What is is that makes the chapter get out of bed in the morning, brush their teeth and descend upon the enemies of the Emperor in a murderous rage? If you want to add bows, doing so later once we've got the background of the chapter to judge it against would work a lot better to my mind ;)

[Brother Leonidas]

The rate of fire of a bolter is still waaaay faster. But a english longbow could fire max 400m if you fire it at a 45 degree angle, and they were fired en masse. A modern day AK 5 or a M4 can at least hit a target at 500m with a maximum range of maybe 800m. Even though the bow idea is cool, space marines are mainly terror weapons. But you could use the longbow in the heraldry. But i still think that the bolter-stake crossbow was a good idea instead.

 

In Battle for the Abyss a Ultramarine and a Space Wolf have a honor duel using chainswords without armour, this would be a cool idea for chapter background. You could use the Blood Angels/Black Templar codices to create an army list as they are CC units, witch is how mideverials fought.

 

What do you think of my bike idea?

 

I don't want to sound like a pessimist, as i really like the idea and want to help. Hope you dont take offense. :P

[Dominicus]

Shinzaren

The Bolter fires mini-rockets, each one self-propelled. The idea that they are considered short range is a little silly. -Shinzaren

 

The reason I figure it would be short ranged is because the mini-rockets would run out of mini-fuel and fall to the big ground :P

 

Overall, I'm not trying to say this is better than the bolter. I'm saying that, while the bolter has this yet unnamed longbow weapon beat at close range, my weapon has it beat at a distance, and could lead to ending up in a fair fight.

 

Sergeant Telion would like to have a word with you...( Yes, I know, Matt Ward fluff, but who cares?)

 

And, I'm just saying, steer clear of Tyranid swarms and ork hordes.

Just saying.

 

Besides, there are stories of Marines using bolters to cover large distances and are accurate firing from the hip.

[thade]

Sorry, I just can't see a bolter firing a shell like that over that kind of distance. As far as I've seen, and I've been reading up, a bolt is knocked out by an initial charge and then propelled solely by solid fuel. From what I've read, about 85-90% of a bolt is dedicated either to exploding or armor piercing, leaving 10% of a 3/4 inch by 2 inch shell dedicated to making it fly.

You are under-estimating their fuel efficiency, which is probably considerable for a peoples that have various forms of interstellar travel. 10% of that shell is probably more than they need for flight-fuel...which, btw, could still contribute to the hit when it detonates.

 

There's one thing about this bow-and-arrow thing that no one's addressed, so I'll start it up. The Imperium doesn't really know how to make bolters, or anything else they wield in combat. It's all reverse engineered hand-me-downs from the Dark Age of Technology. Seriously, to "fix a thing" they spend hours chanting and maybe a quarter of that time tinkering and sprinkling incense on it. The reason bolters are still around is their remarkable durability. They're the AK-47s of the Grim Dark. So consider:

• How did your chapter techmarines invent a device that is superior to a boltgun? They didn't. Nobody invents anything anymore. :P
  
• How when they found this device (which they didn't invent, as we discussed) did they establish it still needed a string (unless you assert the string also survived)?
  
• Have you ever fired a bow? How about a bow with a propelled arrow? How does the arrow know to begin propelling itself? RFID? Good luck getting that to work on a battlefield full of jamming devices.
  
• If your chapter found it (or even invented it) - given its rarity - it would be wholesale confiscated by Adeptus Mechanus. Good luck telling them no.
  
• If your chapter claimed to have invented it, congratulations. The Inquisition thinks it's Xeno/Demonic tech and thus you are Heretics.
  
• There are reasons that modern soldiers carry firearms and not longbows.
  

So I'm sorry to say, I don't buy this.

[Bad Monkey]

this

 

I'd advise to concentrate on the real motivation and character of the chapter, which is really the heart of what an IA should. What is is that makes the chapter get out of bed in the morning, brush their teeth and descend upon the enemies of the Emperor in a murderous rage?

 

and

 

How did your chapter techmarines invent a device that is superior to a boltgun? They didn't. Nobody invents anything anymore.

How when they found this device (which they didn't invent, as we discussed) did they establish it still needed a string (unless you assert the string also survived)?

Have you ever fired a bow? How about a bow with a propelled arrow? How does the arrow know to begin propelling itself? RFID? Good luck getting that to work on a battlefield full of jamming devices.

If your chapter found it (or even invented it) - given its rarity - it would be wholesale confiscated by Adeptus Mechanus. Good luck telling them no.

If your chapter claimed to have invented it, congratulations. The Inquisition thinks it's Xeno/Demonic tech and thus you are Heretics.

There are reasons that modern soldiers carry firearms and not longbows

 

are two of the best bit of advice you could get one this. The medevl theme dose work well, but be careful of over theming the chapter with what is effectivly a gimic. Work more on thier character, maybe work the bow into thier icon or heraldry...

[PyronusSouria]

I'm glad to say that the post by thade completely convinced me of the inconceivability of this idea, although I'm not sure what RFID stands for. :) So I will be sticking to the bolter for my chapter. I'm going to keep the medieval theme, however.

 

My next topic for discussion: bikes vs. some sort of living mount. I'm not sure which way to go on this one, and how to make it work if I choose to go with the living mount. Suggestions?

[Shinzaren]

The problem with a living mount is that an Astartes stands 7.5-9ft tall, and weighs in excess of 325kg, unarmored. Add in an additional 200kg or more for armor, and another 50kg give or take for weapons and other gear. All told, your average marine clocks in at around 575kg or more, all rough estimates. That much weight is far more than nearly any organic creature could viably have riding on it. Not to mention that any creature capable of carrying so much weight would almost assuredly carry it at an exceeding slow pace. The idea that Space Wolves ride into battle on gigantic cyberneticly enhanced wolves is ridiculous, so I wouldn't use that as precedent or justification.

 

In my mind, the best idea for making a knightly chapter would be the simple idea of armoring the bikes more heavily, and giving them the same type of 'barding' as was used on a warhorse. Your bikes might be a little slower, but still quite fast. It would also serve as a place for individual marines to display their heraldry, and give them the overall mounted knight feel. It would be a simple and easy explanation that still shows the knightly theme.

[PyronusSouria]

This was an idea my friend had, he has a rough understanding of the 40k universe.

 

"Why not gene-enhance the horses or whatever like they do with the Space Marines?"

 

So essentially, what he was saying is that they would subject the steeds to a similar gene-therapy, using enhanced gene-seed from an initial steed. My point against it was that it would likely be viewed as heresy, but he said since the Emperor never did that, they wouldn't be trying to improve on it. I said it would probably be impossible anyway. Opinions?

[Shinzaren]

Why? That's the persistent question that is going to pop up a lot during discussions like this. Why would the Adeptus Mechanicus -who would have to handle something this complicated- waste the time and effort to modify the genes of horses or what have you, when they can just build some bikes? The amount of work that would go into something like this, only to make the chapter more knightly, just wouldn't make sense. My advice is that simple is better. Don't go through the massive undertaking of redefining mounted warfare to carry Astartes when it has already been laid for you. Bikes.

[PyronusSouria]

Yeah, that's what I was telling my friend.

 

So with the bikes, what were you thinking? I would see them having that hanging cloth-type thing that old horses had, as well as additional armour. I would likely sacrifice the bolters in the front for the armour, and the riders would have a storm shield and a sort of lance weapon.

[Arkangilos]

Now wait, I wouldn't put bows out completely for the chapter, there is a way to keep the bow as a "weapon."

 

Some chapters have their trademark items, which some use in combat, and some do not. Maybe your chapter recruits from said feudal and knightly world, where bows are used on hunts and in tournaments, and the higher up kids (or maybe even poor ones who need food) learn how to use at a very very young age. So, when teh recruiters come around and pick their cadidates, they hold on to them as a memory of those they once were, to help them remember their cause in defending the Imperium.

 

They don't use them in combat, but they carry them with them as icons to remember, and maybe when the chapter has its celebrations, they hunt the local beasts for the celebrations food. Well, what do they use on this ceremonious hunt? Their own bow that they made!

 

So, as you can see, your chapter can use it as an icon, as a ceremonial piece, or as a hunting tool.

 

Heck, you can even make it to where only the chapter command can have bows, as on their world, the only ones allowed to hunt were the Knightly Lords.

 

Also, I would say to go with bikes instead of horses.

[Marshal Rohr]

Bows are a peasants weapon. What honorable European knight archetype would use a bow over a sword :tu:.

 

 

That's why you should have bolters that fire rocket propelled swords instead of grenades. They can ride on the back of your thunderknight horses. Chapter Master Arturias Pendragonus should have the Excalibus patter bolter that is a double barreled sword shooter. ^_^

[Brother Leonidas]

I just remebered in Horus Rising they fight humans who have a society together with ailiens (freaking heretics), and they are armed with bows. Abbadon find it hilarius but later on those bows fire straight through Power Armour.

 

I agree with the horse idea as that horse would still be outrunned by a normal bike, but why not add horse motifs/galleon figures on them and equip them with lances. Just imagen the awesomeness of a bike riding Astartes ramming his lance in a Chaos Marine riding on and inpale him on a nearby wall.

 

Why dont use a lot of storm/combat shields on marines and have cool hearaldry on them? add that to a Company Command Squad with lances/chainswords. Have you planned any colors you want yet? That could be a good starting point.

 

P.S the Exalubur patter bolter woulb be sweet. Just imagne an eldar inpled on a wall wit 30 swords stuck in his chest.

[Paradill]

I just remebered in Horus Rising they fight humans who have a society together with ailiens (freaking heretics), and they are armed with bows. Abbadon find it hilarius but later on those bows fire straight through Power Armour.

 

The interex were openly using filthy xenos tech. If a chapter were to do this, they would find themselves swiftly bereft of fortress and allies.

 

 

I like the idea of knights on bikes looking knightly. It is quite a common theme but one that can be pulled off really well. The longbow can be a symbol or rank marking as previously mentioned, or it could be dropped completely if you like, either way, just don't use it as a main weapon :)

 

Paradill

[Commander Sasha]

Bows are a peasants weapon. What honorable European knight archetype would use a bow over a sword :).

I think the battle of Crecy answered that one quite effectively!

 

I think it's a shame that too many players of 40K are letting themselves be railroaded into only working within GW's framework of fluff: if you want to be an author for the BL, of course you will have to keep to the rules of the mechanicum, and your bolters should deliver a hail of fire at a range of hundreds of metres.

 

However, if you are modelling your little plastic soldiers, and making up stories about them, you can do WHATEVER YOU LIKE! If you want to be accepted in the 40K community, you will have to stay within reasonable limits, but GW does not represent the absolute limit of your imagination.

 

24" on the table is certainly within the scaled range of a bow, and 12" short enough that you could loose 2 arrows without taking too long about it, especially if your genetics and your armour were helping you.

A tradition of using bows is no more unreasonable than a tradition of wolf pelts, chopping your hands off and replacing them with robotic ones, or painting yourself bright frigging yellow instead of camoflage!

 

Please, Please, at least make one Archermarine before shelving the idea, this has the potential to be a handsome army. How about Razorbacks with Ballista-sized bows on the turret (Check out WHFB High Elves)

[Arkangilos]

In fact, there is a way you can make at least ONE work into 40k fluff.

 

Remember what I was saying earlier? Its sort of a symbolic/ceremonial thing? Well maybe you have a scout sergeat, who is extremely experienced. It would make sense for a scout to use one, and that fits with the "symbol of rank" option.

[PyronusSouria]

I'm loving some of these ideas, and I think you might have convinced me to stick with some use of the longbow concept. Also, I love the Razorback with the ballista turret on the back. Also, thanks for reminding me of the interex :P Now if only there were a way I could use those without being all hereticy :D

[thade]

How is it that my apparently success in saving you was undone so quickly? haha. Alright. Here we go again.

 

IF you use a NORMAL BOW (literal wood bent against its tension strong with some type of sinew) for ceremonial purposes, that would fly. Don't expect that bow to punch through power armor, i.e. it will not convincingly count as a boltgun or any other modern weapon. Anything more complicated (even a mechanical crossbow) really falls out of the realm of possibility for the same reasons I outlined above:

• The only equipment the Space Marines use is handed down or reverse-engineered from literally ancient technology. If bows existed and were in use, we'd know about them.
  
• Nobody invents anything anymore.
  

This also applies to genetically modified ponies, sadly. Sure, they can modify people. Does this mean they could just modify ponies too? No. No it does not. Because the only reason they can modify people (into Space Marines or anything else) is because they have hand-me-down tech that they've been using for centuries which, if you recall, they believe they invoke by chanting and hurling blessed water and incense about. If there were purposefully mutated ponies, we'd know about them.

 

So, I still can't see bows being even remotely plausible...nor horses. However you could, maybe (and I will regret saying this) claim to have found alien beasts of burden that happen to look much like horses. Or giant riding lizards. Or raptors. Or giant mechanized wolves. Hey...waitaminute...

 

So there's some precedent to plugging cybernetics into beasts of burden if you can find over-sized beasts of burden. :P

 

So how about ceremonial bows and cybernetic horse/lizard things?

[PyronusSouria]

I didn't like the idea of genetic mounts, I just want to clarify that :) And I said I was keeping the bow around in some sense, like a ceremonial thing. Donut worry thade, you still won :P

[thade]

Ha! It's not about my victory. :) I just want to save you a world of ridicule.

 

It occurs to me that the Inquisition uses single-shot (once per battle) crossbows. Recall that they hage the best of the best gear...maybe that is some perspective. :P

 

There's a lot you could do with this as others have said. Custom crests for each marine; maybe paint some members of the tac squad (or neophytes if BT) as squires. Power lances as power weapons for your bikers. Always bring a captain that's tricked out for melee as your Champion (again the BT have this covered). Put power swords on your sergeants. Vanguard, Honor Guard, sword-wielding command team...use DA and BT bits for capes and cloaks. :)

[Arkangilos]

How is it that my apparently success in saving you was undone so quickly? haha. Alright. Here we go again.

 

IF you use a NORMAL BOW (literal wood bent against its tension strong with some type of sinew) for ceremonial purposes, that would fly. Don't expect that bow to punch through power armor, i.e. it will not convincingly count as a boltgun or any other modern weapon. Anything more complicated (even a mechanical crossbow) really falls out of the realm of possibility for the same reasons I outlined above:

• The only equipment the Space Marines use is handed down or reverse-engineered from literally ancient technology. If bows existed and were in use, we'd know about them.
  
• Nobody invents anything anymore.
  

This also applies to genetically modified ponies, sadly. Sure, they can modify people. Does this mean they could just modify ponies too? No. No it does not. Because the only reason they can modify people (into Space Marines or anything else) is because they have hand-me-down tech that they've been using for centuries which, if you recall, they believe they invoke by chanting and hurling blessed water and incense about. If there were purposefully mutated ponies, we'd know about them.

 

So, I still can't see bows being even remotely plausible...nor horses. However you could, maybe (and I will regret saying this) claim to have found alien beasts of burden that happen to look much like horses. Or giant riding lizards. Or raptors. Or giant mechanized wolves. Hey...waitaminute...

 

So there's some precedent to plugging cybernetics into beasts of burden if you can find over-sized beasts of burden. :)

 

So how about ceremonial bows and cybernetic horse/lizard things?

 

The Imperium is known for genetically modifying animals, though. The Rough Riders ride genetically enhaced horses, so it is entirely feasible. Also, there have been some "invintions." True, they all have some sort of STC behind it, but the STC did NOT lay out the design for what they were.

 

Take for example the Blood Angel Rhinos. Their Rhinos are faster than most rhinos. Why is this? Because they took an STC from ANOTHER design, and "invented" a better Rhino using parts of the seperate STC.

 

Also, Simple things (such as a mechanical crossbow) can still be invented, and those aren't within the confinds of the AdMech. Those are basic tools that are "easy" to replicate. What can not be invented however, are the COMPLEX tools.

 

Yes, I agree, there should NOT be combat bows. I said in my post that they should be ceremonial. However, there is a way to justify one or two people using them in combat. Scouts and Stealth. Then the person can also choose between three types of arrows or bolts. They could choose normal, which are silent. Poisoned, which are also silent, but more powerfull, or they could choose explosive, as these are all types of projectiles used by Bows and Cross Bows.

 

So, again, I would only advice one or two people using them, but any number as having them. (they can put them on their back packs or something.) Or maybe just the Captains and Higher ups have them. Its all up to you.