Shinzaren Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Take for example the Blood Angel Rhinos. Their Rhinos are faster than most rhinos. Why is this? Because Matt Ward wrote that Codex and Fluffiness. Also, Simple things (such as a mechanical crossbow) can still be invented, and those aren't within the confinds of the AdMech. Those are basic tools that are "easy" to replicate. What can not be invented however, are the COMPLEX tools. But no bow this 'simple' would be able to outclass a bolter in any sort of situation whatsoever. Yes, I agree, there should NOT be combat bows. I said in my post that they should be ceremonial. However, there is a way to justify one or two people using them in combat. Scouts and Stealth. Then the person can also choose between three types of arrows or bolts. They could choose normal, which are silent. Poisoned, which are also silent, but more powerfull, or they could choose explosive, as these are all types of projectiles used by Bows and Cross Bows. But the Stalker pattern bolter is better all around for stealth. Why bother with the bow? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2806879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Because Matt Ward wrote that Codex and Fluffiness. Fluff still equals fluff, so it is right. But no bow this 'simple' would be able to outclass a bolter in any sort of situation whatsoever. Not debating this, as I completely agree. But the Stalker pattern bolter is better all around for stealth. Why bother with the bow? Why bother with STCs? Why not just invent something? Why not use the vastly superior rail gun? Why bother with swords? Why bother with knifes? Why bother with hammers and claws? Why bother with Claymores? (Storm Wardens). Why bother with chainswords? Why bother with horses and rough riders? There are vast multitudes of weapons far superior to the ones used by space marines and the Imperium, but their mindset is that those are their holy weapons. The same can be said for this bow. This said chapter likes bows. As the Original Poster has been convinced and stated, they are more of a ceremonial tool, but the chapter still "values" them. So, why can't one person, who values his ceremonial weapon, not use it? I mean, if you look at all of the other crazy things the Imperium does, this is, in my opinion, quite small. One person, in one chapter that values their old way of life uses a bow in stealth combat. Heck, I would like to even point out something the IG codex pointed out. "There are some regiments that are fielded with only pikes and swords." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2806911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyronusSouria Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Why does everyone lay so much hate on Matt Ward? The stuff he writes isn't even that bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Why does everyone lay so much hate on Matt Ward? The stuff he writes isn't even that bad. CAREFUL less you derail your own thread with anti-Matt Ward propaganda. <_< (I don't mind most of his stuff. Most.) Making Rhinos faster by over-driving the engines is not invention; it's just a modification. Even their fancy Baal Predators aren't inventions, they're just plans that only the BA and their successors have access to (and they haven't turned them over to Mechanus, which is a point of contention). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Why does everyone lay so much hate on Matt Ward? The stuff he writes isn't even that bad. CAREFUL less you derail your own thread with anti-Matt Ward propaganda. ;) (I don't mind most of his stuff. Most.) Making Rhinos faster by over-driving the engines is not invention; it's just a modification. Even their fancy Baal Predators aren't inventions, they're just plans that only the BA and their successors have access to (and they haven't turned them over to Mechanus, which is a point of contention). But they don't "over drive" them anymore. That was old stuff. In new stuff they use the engine from the Baal Pred, so they reinvented the Rhino with a differant engine. That is my point. I did say that it used parts from other, already existing techs, but in a way, it is an invention because those parts weren't in the original STC for the Rhino. It was a renovation. +edit+ I have no problem with Ward at all. You will find I am one of his defenders if you search the forums. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Incorporate the bow into a Chapter ritual... Probably the transition from recruit to Brother marine... ? You must kill the Big Scary Monster of the Forest, with this bow, and this knife... Then, to prove that you done so, you will skin the Big Scary Monster of the Forest, and wear his hide back to the Keep... If you fail, then die with honor.... Sort of thing... But, I was always under the impression that, bows are not chivalrous...? The sword, the axe, the flail, the mace, and the halberd bring you glory and into close-combat with your enemy. Plus... I've never really understood the Space Marines on Animals thing... I always imgaine this metric ton weighing super-human balanced precariously on a Mechano-Horse... >.< I'm still waiting for the White Scars to get their Own horses... Since Clearly they're "Mongolian"... -.- Some things that strike me for a 'medieval theme': Grim sense of life, Honor is Everything, Seek out the Biggest, or Deadliest, or Most Dangerous thing you can, and slay the Heck out of it for Glory!, the more Tales that Are Told about Your daring exploits, the better... Don't get hung up on equipment... Saying 'I have 100 Terminator suits of armor' isn't interesting... Saying 'I have a bow-gun' isn't either... The character flaws, and strengths, that are incorporated into your Chapter, are though. It's why I like the Black Templars... They have cool "stuff", but it's that sense of eternally seeking redemption, the endless crusade, unthinking pro-humanist and viciously anti-witch ideals, along with many other things, is why I like them... Not because 'They have guns with cool stuff on them'... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Monkey Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Don't get hung up on equipment... Saying 'I have 100 Terminator suits of armor' isn't interesting... Saying 'I have a bow-gun' isn't either... The character flaws, and strengths, that are incorporated into your Chapter, are though. Do this, and you will succeed. focus too much on the shiney toys and you will fail. Use bows as a badge of office by all means, maybe work it into some honour badge, the mark of the huntsman or somthing like that, mutant clydesdales and robo-ponies add nothing to the chapter. Look more to the culture of the medievil world rather than the stuff they had. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyronusSouria Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 +1 point for saying mutant clydesdales B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Incorporate the bow into a Chapter ritual... Probably the transition from recruit to Brother marine... ? You must kill the Big Scary Monster of the Forest, with this bow, and this knife... Then, to prove that you done so, you will skin the Big Scary Monster of the Forest, and wear his hide back to the Keep... If you fail, then die with honor.... Sort of thing... Yes, this indeed. Maybe not the wearing part and what not, but the hunt. Like how nobles would go on hunts. Of course, it doesn't have to be a scout thing, it could just be something you chapter does on celebrations or free time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 @Telanicus... What better way to prove how manly-manlike you are than wearing the skin of your enemy?... Mua ha ha ha! ... I just thought (Ow my brain-organ! )... Incorporate the Killer Bunny of Caerbannor... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 @Telanicus... What better way to prove how manly-manlike you are than wearing the skin of your enemy?... Mua ha ha ha! ... I just thought (Ow my brain-organ! :( )... Incorporate the Killer Bunny of Caerbannor... :P Well I still thought it was a good idea. It is just a little bit more... Spartan and more vicious,thats all . For chilvilrous I would picture their nobles doing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Touche... It does seem very barbaric... *Puts on his Ork-skin jacket and marches off* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyronusSouria Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Isn't wearing skin more of a Flayed Ones thing? :P Anyway, this is essentially what I have for my chapter so far -heavy bike mounted knights with power lances/storm shields -longbow used for ceremony/initiation -each company will have its own heraldry Next question: Is it unrealistic for my chapter to interpret the Emperor's will as urging them to defend the Imperium with more of an intent to protect her people rather than exterminate everything that isn't human? I mean, can they undertake missions to save civilians in a chivalric manner? Obviously I don't mean they'll show mercy on any xeno. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Isn't wearing skin more of a Flayed Ones thing? :P Anyway, this is essentially what I have for my chapter so far -heavy bike mounted knights with power lances/storm shields -longbow used for ceremony/initiation -each company will have its own heraldry Next question: Is it unrealistic for my chapter to interpret the Emperor's will as urging them to defend the Imperium with more of an intent to protect her people rather than exterminate everything that isn't human? I mean, can they undertake missions to save civilians in a chivalric manner? Obviously I don't mean they'll show mercy on any xeno. Sure they can! The Sallies themselves do such things. My Sanguinary Crusaders do as well, but they are a little unforgiving should said citizens had have contact with chaos, aware or unaware. You know, I actually have in notebook a chapter a lot like this one, I call them the Brotherhood of the Lance. They are knightly, love bikes/mounted warfare, use lances, and their companies are called "Realms" and they have 7of them. Each realm has its own colors, but its heraldry changes as the "Lord Knight Commander" changes. The Squad Leaders are calld Knight Bannerets to eachother, their differant squads are called differant things as well, and the Tactical Squads are the first line. They are called known Feudal Knights, and as they display skills in other ways, they are inducted into other "Orders." The orders are the assault and close combat orders. Of course, this is what they call all of these in their own company, but they know the traditions ofthe space marines, and when they are talking to say... the Ultramarines, they still call all of their stuff "Devs, assaults, tacs, etc." But to them, they are all known by differant names. I know, a lot of people will get mad at this because it is "uncodex" and very differant, (hence why I did not post it... yet), but I have a history lined out and the world they come from, as well as events in the past, have transpired to cause this. So yeah, way to steal my ideas :P I'm just kidding, but anyways, I would recommend sticking to codex ;). Of course, I put all of these up here so you are free to look at them and take from them what you want. Just remember, the closer to codex, the better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Now... Being "pro-civvy" isn't unheard of... But don't forget... Space Marines aren't Boy Scouts... They are in this to kill and butcher, not build bridges... Well... Kill and butcher WHILE building a bridge, maybe... You are a HUGE investment of resources for the Imperium, and the pinnacle of human greatness... In fact, you're probably More Than human now, after all the things you've been pumped full of... It'd be a waste of Everything you are to worry about what Average Citizen Jim does... Remember, if the Imperium has crap loads of Anything, it is lives... Not so much equipment... You can replace a trooper in the Imperial Guard potentially easier than you can a Leman Russ, so to speak... For every million dead, there's one billion more, sort of mentality. Don't forget... Knights were very condescending, and really, very non-concerned about the peasant's lives, etc. I don't see them as "goody-goody lovers of the Average Joe" so much as a haughty view of "the mighty must do what they can to save the 'little people' Guffaw Guffaw Guffaw" Maybe take a look at th eBretonnians, in the same GW vein... They've gotten Alot darker, and I like it... The peasants are more heavily downtrodden, while the rich live Richly, and are more concerned with their affairs of the joust, and kissing fair maidens, then whether or not Peasant Jim died of the Plague... Well, if he did die of the Plague, you can segregate yourself in your castle, adn let the population die... Anyways! Remember... You kill... THAT is the ONLY thing you do... And you DO IT very very well... Everything else, comes Second to everything that you are as a Marine... You butcher, THEN you ask questions... Asking questions, THEN butchering, is dangerous... The Iron Hands, while proficient in technology, butcher and kill... The Salamanders, burn and destroy... The Ultramarines, who've I've always seen as a very "Humanitarian" Chapter, butcher and kill... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Chap' is right. Knights really didn't care. However, your chapter can care about the general survival of the civilians, they see that as their goal. For the Imperium to survive, so must its subjects. and they can still be honorable. All in all, you can be pro civilians, but you are a tool of war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyronusSouria Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Alrighty, thanks guys. :D I was just saying that they would follow more of a chivalrous ideal, protecting the weak and whatnot. Their attitudes towards the civilians would likely change from company to company, with some Captains being holier-than-thou towards them and feeling as if it is a chore to protect them, but that their duty requires it. Other Captains would take pride in their duty and, while seeing it as difficult, never question it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2807998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominicus Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Alrighty, thanks guys. :D I was just saying that they would follow more of a chivalrous ideal, protecting the weak and whatnot. Their attitudes towards the civilians would likely change from company to company, with some Captains being holier-than-thou towards them and feeling as if it is a chore to protect them, but that their duty requires it. Other Captains would take pride in their duty and, while seeing it as difficult, never question it. If you want, in regards to the Captains who have the holier than thou attitude, you could make the Chapter Master continually have to keep bashin' some 'eads to keep them in line with Chapter ideals, which results in friction between those Captains and the Chapter Master, and could lead to a schism. It would be interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2808116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Take for example the Blood Angel Rhinos. Their Rhinos are faster than most rhinos. Why is this? Because the red wunz go fasta. Even the Orks know that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2808285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Angels of Death people. They come in. They kill. Humanitarianism is for the weak of will :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2808332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyronusSouria Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Who says you can't be a humanitarian and mercilessly murder everything that isn't part of the Imperium? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2808335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 People in 40K are a dime a billion. Worlds are worth defending with your life. Not people. Think about it like this. The Imperium is concerned with worlds. There are around 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, if not a little more. This doesn't count the number of worlds controlled by Orks, who actually control more worlds than the Imperium, being the most populous race in the galaxy. The Imperium is expanding, Crusades are constantly being launched to bring new sectors into the Imperium, similar to how religions want religious converts. Its the space marines job to protect the converts and bring in new ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2808343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Right, but there can be a degree of "humanitarianism" for some space marines. For example, your marines might not think that they should be used as canon fodder. They might not think that they should be executed for seeing something they shouldn't have seen, and they might not think they should be used as slave labour, etc. So that would make them defend those aspects. If a general is wasting millions upon millions of soldiers that could be spent in ways better than the, "Send in the next wave!" tactic, then maybe your marines will do something about it. If you see other space marines treating the locals like crap (like in several stories), you might jump in, punch the marine and say, "We do not treat citizens like this!" (though, keep in mind, that might have other effects 0.0) so, there are ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2808441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyronusSouria Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Right, but there can be a degree of "humanitarianism" for some space marines. For example, your marines might not think that they should be used as canon fodder. They might not think that they should be executed for seeing something they shouldn't have seen, and they might not think they should be used as slave labour, etc. So that would make them defend those aspects. If a general is wasting millions upon millions of soldiers that could be spent in ways better than the, "Send in the next wave!" tactic, then maybe your marines will do something about it. If you see other space marines treating the locals like crap (like in several stories), you might jump in, punch the marine and say, "We do not treat citizens like this!" (though, keep in mind, that might have other effects 0.0) so, there are ways. That's exactly what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure how to say it. Thanks Telanicus. Well maybe I wouldn't have them punch the marine, as that kind of defeats the purpose of chivalry :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2808462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobansa Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 throw down a power fist perhaps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232761-opinionsideas/page/3/#findComment-2808590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.