Mobile fire support

[Brother_Byhlli]

Hey, brothers!

 

I played a couple of games today and realised fairly quickly that I'm lacking in any kind of long-range fire support for my Assault Squads.

 

Here's the rub: there are plenty of long-range fire support options, but none of them fit with a mobile jump infantry army.

 

So, the question: if you had to pick a long-range fire support unit for a mobile jump infantry army, what would it be and why?

[Brother Excedis]

I personally use a baal predator with assault cannons and heavy bolter sponsons with a lascannon loaded out predator annihilator. Because they are both fast they can keep up and still blast everything they come against. The predator gets both a hk missil and storm bolter for 10 pts (loophole in the wording). and the baal gets a stormbolter. I use the baal for infantry and light vehicle eradication and the annihilator for major tank hunting. In three or four battles the annihilator has 7 or 8 armor kills (my friend uses ig) and multiple woundings, and the baal has 4 or 5 squad wipes and innumerable individual kills. The baal can flank so it can come in in a deepstrike esq way and the annihilator is fast so it will get up there quick but it doesnt have to.

 

excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes please....I'm terrible with checking my own writing :P

[Black Memories]

Devastators and attack bikes with multi meltas are good choices. The other option is drop your assault marines with meltas right next to the tanks and pop them.

 

Attack bikes are fast and hard to kill and excellent bang for the buck.

 

Devastators are not mobile, but they don't need to be and they'll keep firing even if shot at "usually" as they can't be glanced to death like vehicles. If you're in an all jump army throwing 1 vehicle in there is a bad idea, thats what all the enemies anti-tank fire will be targetted at. The trick to running vehicles at all is to run a bunch or none. BA can run all infantry armies, you just have to decide if you want to run an all-jumpers army (doa purist) or if you want a hybrid DoA/gun line with devs and the like.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Thanks, brother!

 

My problem is that due to the melta-meta game, I'm trying to avoid tanks. I appreciate that the Blood Angels are rocking some of the fastest tanks in the game, but I also know that if I try running tanks the first thing any of my opponents are going to do is slag them.

 

One melta shot can waste a 250 point Landraider almost as easily as it can waste an 18 point Space Marine. I prefer to take the fourteen Space Marines to provide redundancy and ablative wounds.

 

If I was playing Imperial Guard, I could see the point in taking tanks, because my infantry would be pants. But as Space Marines, I rather think that my basic units are well-enough equipped to take on almost all comers.

 

I just had a slightly bizarre idea: the reason that the Blood Angels need long-range fire support is to take care of the opponent's long-range fire support. The short-range and mid-range table is controlled entirely by our combat units and, given enough time, our combat units can cross the board and take care of any long-range threats. So the question we should be asking is not "how can we shoot the enemy's long-range fire support?" but instead is "how can we stop the enemy's long-range fire support from shooting us?" The answer? Vanguard Veteran Squads. Take a squad of ten Veterans, give them absolutely no upgrades other than jump packs and Descent of Angels onto long-range fire bases. They may not instantly win combat, but they'll get there eventually. In the meantime, they'll prevent any long-range attacks on our short-range and mid-range table. If you want, put a couple of power fists into half of the squads in case they run into tanks.

 

We don't have to shoot our enemy; we're Blood Angels. Let's put them to the sword.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

I've found that Storm Ravens are quite effective at long range fire power with a DoA list. I run a couple from time to time and they treat me well. Though as you said one good shot can kill any vehicle. But on the subject of VVs remember that while a lucky dice roll can kill a vehicle, an unlucky one can kill that unit of VVs.

 

-Samirus

[Brother_Byhlli]

I've found that Storm Ravens are quite effective at long range fire power with a DoA list. I run a couple from time to time and they treat me well.

 

I think that in a mechanised list, Stormravens can provide you with a mobile and highly dangerous fire base. However, I rather suspect that if my list is 1,250 points of Space Marines and two Stormravens, they're likely to get smashed up pretty quickly. Certainly if I was playing against an army fielding two Stormravens and nothing but infantry, I'd be sure to melta the living snot out of the Stormravens before they got a chance to cause serious damage.

 

Though as you said one good shot can kill any vehicle.

 

Right, but my point didn't end there: I was saying that if the shot is going to kill something, I'd much rather it's a Space Marine than a tank. Let's assume you play a six-turn game against an army with a melta. The worst thing that can happen is you lose six tanks. But now let's assume you play a six-turn game against an army with anti-tank weapons but you have no tanks. The worst thing that can happen now is you lose six Space Marines. *Shrugs*. With the meta game the way it currently is and with base-level Space Marines so potent on the table, I don't feel I have any reason at all to field a vehicle.

 

But on the subject of VVs remember that while a lucky dice roll can kill a vehicle, an unlucky one can kill that unit of VVs.

 

But this is a non-argument. I think what you're basically saying is "any unit can die". I completely agree. But, hey. Let's put it to the mathhammer test. Here's my challenge: assuming a range greater than 36" (so your Assault Squads will take more than two turns to get to the target), can you think of a single unit that the Blood Angels can field which can do a better job of preventing an enemy's long-range fire support from dominating the field than a 165-points unit of Vanguard Veterans?

 

My plan would be to run a full ten-man squad with two power fists, jump packs and nothing else. I'd combat squad depending on the enemy - if there are tanks mixed with long-range infantry, then both fists go in one squad to take on a tank while the other squad takes on a long-range infantry unit. If not, the fists split up to spread higher Initiative attacks through the two squads against infantry or power fist attacks against tanks, as appropriate. That's 350 points and at the very least it's tying up two long-range fire support units for several turns, if not completely destroying them in one turn. Again, I challenge you: beat that with any long-range fire support of equal points value.

 

I see the bulk of my army holding position on my side of the board until the Vanguard Veteran Squads have dropped in to provide cover from long-range fire and then slamming across the board into the short- and medium-range board targets. I honestly, 100% and genuinely cannot see a problem with this. There are obvious risks: the deep strike has to work properly, but with a 1d6" scatter, we have significantly more control over our landing than any other army.

 

With careful planning you can likely make sure that your Vanguard Veteran Squads are left in combat for an extra turn, too, which protects them from fire in subsequent rounds.

 

So. The challenge is set: can anyone convince me that Vanguard Veteran Squads are not the ultimate solution to the long-range fire support problem? Can anyone convince me that there is any part of my psyche - any part of the Blood Angels psyche - that allows for anything other than putting my enemies to the sword?

[Brother_Byhlli]

Devastators and attack bikes with multi meltas are good choices. The other option is drop your assault marines with meltas right next to the tanks and pop them.

 

Attack bikes are fast and hard to kill and excellent bang for the buck.

 

Devastators are not mobile, but they don't need to be and they'll keep firing even if shot at "usually" as they can't be glanced to death like vehicles. If you're in an all jump army throwing 1 vehicle in there is a bad idea, thats what all the enemies anti-tank fire will be targetted at. The trick to running vehicles at all is to run a bunch or none. BA can run all infantry armies, you just have to decide if you want to run an all-jumpers army (doa purist) or if you want a hybrid DoA/gun line with devs and the like.

 

Bikes and Landspeeders interest me. I need to look into them more.

 

Devastators may not suffer from glances as vehicles do, but there's more of a problem with them than just their lack of mobility: they simply don't have the firepower to cause enough real damage. I played two 500 point games today and I faced-off against 56 models in the first army and 40 models in the second army. Devastator squads don't have the numbers to deal with that kind of horde, do they?

 

With a Furious Charge against a Guardsman, standard Assault Squad models have a 2/3 chance to hit, a 5/6 chance to wound and then armour saves range from 2/3 fails to 100% fails for no armour. And let's not forget that in combat a standard model from an Assault Squad has 3 attacks. How many times can your Devastator fire? And that's ignoring shots fired from bolt pistols before combat.

 

Our combat troops just put out an obscene amount of damage. There are definitely targets out there that we don't want to end up in combat with so far as standard Assault Squads are concerned, but we have elite troops who can deal with those - and if our elite troops can't deal with them, then the multitude of plasma and melta that we can field by selecting infantry over tanks certainly will.

[SevenExxes]

HB/Typhoon Land Speeders.

[Brother_Byhlli]

HB/Typhoon Land Speeders.

 

Cost/attack range/weapons loadout/damage output?

 

Edit: just looked it up. Response below.

 

Ok, we're looking at 100 points per model here, so we can get one-and-a-half per combat-squad of Vanguard Veterans.

 

I'm not counting the heavy bolter because its range is 36", which is within range of Assault Squads with a couple good movement phases. I'm looking at taking out long-range heavy support.

 

We're talking potentially three wounds from krak missiles or three blast templates - if we're very lucky - bang on target.

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the frag missiles and assume they each hit four models. Against GEQ you're doing an average of eight wounds (assuming they don't have better than a 6+ armour save and they don't go to ground). Against MEQ you're doing an average of two wounds (one with Feel No Pain).

 

I would expect Veteran Vanguards to not only destroy a ten-man Guard unit but very probably to destroy two ten-man guard units if they're close enough to be multiple-charged. And the Veteran Vanguards would certainly tie up a MEQ unit, likely killing one or two models but also stopping them from firing during their next firing phase.

 

I remain to be convinced!

 

:)

[SevenExxes]

Typhoon rockets are Heavy 2 weapons, that's potentially 6 shots not 3 in a squad of 3 models.

They can move 12" and fire the HB's plus all frag rockets, that's gotta hurt someone.

They can keep up with jump infantry and can also deep strike, albeit less effeciently then DoA.

 

And I think it's 90 points per model, not 100.

[JMac]

You make a great point. The BA shooting strength lies in very few units, but combine as one mega-force makes them just as good as an all out marine army with VVs. Those few units are Razorbacks, Preds (both Baal and Dakka), and Vindis. Obviously, you can't take all these units for the price of one VV but the points saved from the absence from them are definitely put to good use. You can take 3 Preds with AutoC/HB and 1 Baal Pred with AssaultC/HB for 445 pts and those 4 units are pumping out 34 shots at 24" AFTER moving 6".

 

The reason this build is so popular with BA is because all these tanks are fast, which means they can move and fire all weapons, or move far and still fire some weapons. Flexibility: a vital key to any army.

 

Brother_Byhill, I do not wish to persuade/convince you that any one unit is better point for point than VVs (mainly because VV are awesome and have there place as a valuable unit in lots of army lists).

 

I only play devil's advocate right here because I'm not sure that an all infantry unit is best here. Time after time have some of my units been bested in combat by something that is 3x the size of a marine with 6 wounds **cough**BUGS!**cough** Even as blood angels, some armies have to be shot at and the sword isn't always the solution.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

HB/Typhoon Land Speeders.

 

I much prefer the HF/Typhoon speeder

 

Same cost. Gives you the cover ignoring template and since often times the speeder wants to be buzzing around at 12" a turn it wouldnt be firing the Krak Missiles to full affect.

 

Against Marines the HB doesnt do much. The HF doesnt do terribly much either but its not bad.

Against hordes the HF will kill alot more and gives you the option for a last minute cockblock by zipping forward Double Blast, Flame Template thats alot of template coverage on a big unit.

Against Tanks the HF and HB are both pretty much moot (ok against Raiders the HB might be useful)

 

Against anything heavier duty you're probably not using the Speeder anyway.

[Corby]

HB/Typhoon Land Speeders.

 

I much prefer the HF/Typhoon speeder

 

Same cost. Gives you the cover ignoring template and since often times the speeder wants to be buzzing around at 12" a turn it wouldnt be firing the Krak Missiles to full affect.

 

Against Marines the HB doesnt do much. The HF doesnt do terribly much either but its not bad.

Against hordes the HF will kill alot more and gives you the option for a last minute cockblock by zipping forward Double Blast, Flame Template thats alot of template coverage on a big unit.

Against Tanks the HF and HB are both pretty much moot (ok against Raiders the HB might be useful)

 

Against anything heavier duty you're probably not using the Speeder anyway.

 

Part of what makes the heavy bolter / Typhoon speeder so good is its ability to plaster infantry by moving 12" firing its heavy bolter , and two frag templates as defensive weapons.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

But this is a non-argument. I think what you're basically saying is "any unit can die". I completely agree.

 

Actually the point I was attempting to make if you're going to have VVs do the dirty work of "Long Range Fire Suppression" you need to be using them with a "Go big or Go home" mentality. Bearing in mind I'm not trying to dissuade you from using them. I do almost exactly what you're talking about every game. What I am trying to say is Mishaps happen. Even with a 1d6" scatter. Yes, a 5 man VV unit no matter how its equipped should destroy a unit of guardsmen or equivalent but not if that first model lands on one of theirs and the unfortunate happens.

 

So. The challenge is set: can anyone convince me that Vanguard Veteran Squads are not the ultimate solution to the long-range fire support problem? Can anyone convince me that there is any part of my psyche - any part of the Blood Angels psyche - that allows for anything other than putting my enemies to the sword?

 

My understanding of your OP was to ask for other options than VV, not saying they are the only option. You also did not state what point level you are talking of playing at here. Obviously putting the better part of 400 points into a pair of SRs is not a wise choice at 1250, but if you play generally at 2000 or above I might consider the SRs.

 

-Samirus

[breng77]

It really depends on what you want out of your long range fire support, and how many points you are playing. Devastators with Missiles function very well with assault marines with jump packs. Missiles do a good job of taking out most vehicles, squads of marines, or on frag setting, hordes.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Actually the point I was attempting to make if you're going to have VVs do the dirty work of "Long Range Fire Suppression" you need to be using them with a "Go big or Go home" mentality. Bearing in mind I'm not trying to dissuade you from using them. I do almost exactly what you're talking about every game. What I am trying to say is Mishaps happen. Even with a 1d6" scatter. Yes, a 5 man VV unit no matter how its equipped should destroy a unit of guardsmen or equivalent but not if that first model lands on one of theirs and the unfortunate happens.

 

Right, sorry - I misunderstood! (As it happens, my comment originally read "what you're saying is..." before I realised that telling you what you're saying is somewhat obnoxious and presumptious! And it turns out it's a good thing I changed it, being as I properly misunderstood you! ;) )

 

I do wonder about the "go big or go home" on Veteran Vanguards. My problem is that I genuinely don't want them destroying units on the turn they arrive. Don't get me wrong - given a choice of me destroying their unit or their unit destroying me, I'd obviously prefer not to be losing models. However, if I could choose, I'd stick in combat until the next combat phase, allowing me to move on in my next movement phase without being subjected to retributive fire. It's a fine balance between doing enough damage to stay in combat without losing, but also not obliterating the enemy unit.

 

I guess my concern here is that if you go too big, you will go home. Does that make sense, or am I talking gibberish?

 

Interesting that you use them regularly, though. Can I ask how they tend to fare? Presumably if you're using them fairly often, they're doing a good job for you. How do you kit them out? What do they tend to do when they arrive?

 

My understanding of your OP was to ask for other options than VV, not saying they are the only option. You also did not state what point level you are talking of playing at here. Obviously putting the better part of 400 points into a pair of SRs is not a wise choice at 1250, but if you play generally at 2000 or above I might consider the SRs.

 

Actually, I'm just looking for options generally. My original question was what options we had for long-range fire support, but I realised quite early on that I much prefer the idea of Vanguard Veteran Squads suppressing opposition fire bases than trying to shoot them down with tanks or Devastators. I just kinda think it's a novel way of approaching the problem that isn't really an option for other armies. It also seems to me to be the very best use of Veteran Vanguard Squads.

 

At the moment, I couldn't even field a Stormraven in my army. I'm currently playing 500 points, but I have plans for moving up to 750 points (including a unit of Vanguard Veterans, incidentally, which is why I'm keen to hear your war stories from using them!) in the next week or so. It's entirely possible as my army grows that I'll start looking for greater variety in my units, but for now I'm delighted with the jump infantry and excited by their potential against literally any kind of target out there.

[Brother_Byhlli]

It really depends on what you want out of your long range fire support, and how many points you are playing. Devastators with Missiles function very well with assault marines with jump packs. Missiles do a good job of taking out most vehicles, squads of marines, or on frag setting, hordes.

 

My problem with this is that I believe Vanguard Veteran Squads are the ultimate answer to Devastator Squads.

 

What I'm looking for isn't necessarily a way to shoot things from far off - what I'm asking is whether we are better to focus on stopping the enemy shooting us from far off and concentrating on dominating the short game with our Assault Squads.

 

Veteran Vanguard Squads potentially offer a way of tying up Devastator-esque squads for a few turns without running the risk of being shot-up en-route. Nothing else we own can do that.

[breng77]

While that is true VVs are expensive for that (especially at 500 points). On top of which you do run a risk of them getting shot up on the way in. When you drop VVs 3 things can happen.

1.) You are successful, they drop in, assault and either kill or tie up their target, or possibly lose combat.

2.) They mishap, which means you get another chance 1/3 of the time, 2/3 of the time they become more or less useless.

3.) They drop in and fail their charge. Either they scatter beyond charge range, or your opponent is in cover and you fail your difficult terrain roll, they get stuck in the open and get shot to death.

 

It really depends, it also depends on your local meta game, if you are seeing lots of Grey Knights, then Vanguard vets are more or less useless against Warp Quake, if you are seeing a lot of Unsupported Long fangs and devastators, they they could be worth the points. If you see lots of vehicles I would rather have honor guard with melta guns.

[Brother_Byhlli]

While that is true VVs are expensive for that (especially at 500 points). On top of which you do run a risk of them getting shot up on the way in. When you drop VVs 3 things can happen.

1.) You are successful, they drop in, assault and either kill or tie up their target, or possibly lose combat.

2.) They mishap, which means you get another chance 1/3 of the time, 2/3 of the time they become more or less useless.

3.) They drop in and fail their charge. Either they scatter beyond charge range, or your opponent is in cover and you fail your difficult terrain roll, they get stuck in the open and get shot to death.

 

It really depends, it also depends on your local meta game, if you are seeing lots of Grey Knights, then Vanguard vets are more or less useless against Warp Quake, if you are seeing a lot of Unsupported Long fangs and devastators, they they could be worth the points. If you see lots of vehicles I would rather have honor guard with melta guns.

 

I actually think they're really cheap. They only cost 165 points for a squad that can pull shooting away from your 235 point Assault Squad.

 

I agree that deep-striking for Heroic Intervention is not always viable, but even in the scenario where there's no safe landing zone and no reliable unit to charge, you have a five-man unit that can hit as hard as a ten-man Assault Squad. It's smaller which makes it more maneuverable and easier to hide.

 

Thing is, even if you have a unit that has the option of deep-striking into combat, you don't have to do it. Having the option, however, is very, very nice.

 

In terms of vehicles, my 750 point list contains three meltaguns, two power fists and, if needed, my Librarian's Blood Lance. The Vanguard Veterans do something that no other unit can do in the army: engage, negate and destroy enemy infantry units that supply long-range fire support, without taking one single shot against.

 

I'm not saying that Vanguard Veteran Squads are the answer to every question, but when the question is "how do I stop my opponent's long-range heavy weapon infantry unit shooting at me?", there is simply no better answer than Vanguard Veterans.

[Blindhamster]

I've had a fair bit of success with vanguard squads in the past, they can hit really hard, and can make for a great way to force you opponant to deal with them rather than the rest of your army. That being said, you charge most other armies elite melee squads and they'll go down (or if you purchase storm shields for the VV they end up being horribly expensive)

 

10 man devastator squad with 4 rocket launchers, combat squaded can be a very nice unit by the way. and relatively cheap to making them more viable :P

[Brother_Byhlli]

I've had a fair bit of success with vanguard squads in the past, they can hit really hard, and can make for a great way to force you opponant to deal with them rather than the rest of your army. That being said, you charge most other armies elite melee squads and they'll go down (or if you purchase storm shields for the VV they end up being horribly expensive)

 

10 man devastator squad with 4 rocket launchers, combat squaded can be a very nice unit by the way. and relatively cheap to making them more viable :P

 

Mhm, I don't see Vanguard Veterans as an option against elite melee units. They're more like flying scouts. I would expect to use a plasma-heavy Honour Guard against units I can't take in close combat.

 

I see myself using Devastators in a different type of list. But for the mobility you need to efficiently run a jump infantry army, I think they're too slow.

 

In a list with tanks, Terminators and suchlike, I would definitely consider Devastators for fire support.

[Blindhamster]

In a list with tanks, Terminators and suchlike, I would definitely consider Devastators for fire support

 

in such a list, they aren't really needed, tank heavy lists usually have enough fire support without devastators, however, 48" range is enough to cover most of a table, meaning a well placed dev squad can be very effective at supporting your melee elements. Another way to run a ten man unit would be 3 rocket launchers and one lascannon, combat squad with the lascannon placed with the sergeant, the rest of the heavys with 2 standard marines. a Lascannon that hits on 2s all game can be quite handy.

[Brother_Byhlli]

In a list with tanks, Terminators and suchlike, I would definitely consider Devastators for fire support

Another way to run a ten man unit would be 3 rocket launchers and one lascannon, combat squad with the lascannon placed with the sergeant, the rest of the heavys with 2 standard marines. a Lascannon that hits on 2s all game can be quite handy.

 

I rather like that idea!

[Godhead]

Vanguard Vets can also suffer from bubble wrap. When your opponent surrounds that piece of long range fire support with a bunch of bodies, you might not have a path to assault the unit you need too in order to keep the rest of your jump infantry safe. Guard can take a platoon squad and just run them around say a russ or medusa or whatever else. A balanced attack will do more for you than just assault assault assault. I also prefer speeders. They are relatively cheap and super versatile. Attack bikes are also really good. The other thing is if you are playing against another Blood Angels army, how does your VV do against 12" moving vindis? You would only hit on 6s, and the vehicle damage chart isn't that kind to you. So there is a good chance to do nothing and then get smoked next turn. At the very least you can bring an honor guard with 4 meltas, they are pretty decent as they come with their own built in priest. Also, my stepson will just simply take an assault marine squad and combat squad them putting 2 meltas into a unit and deep strike the meltas close enough to shoot something.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Vanguard Vets can also suffer from bubble wrap. When your opponent surrounds that piece of long range fire support with a bunch of bodies, you might not have a path to assault the unit you need too in order to keep the rest of your jump infantry safe. Guard can take a platoon squad and just run them around say a russ or medusa or whatever else. A balanced attack will do more for you than just assault assault assault. I also prefer speeders. They are relatively cheap and super versatile. Attack bikes are also really good. The other thing is if you are playing against another Blood Angels army, how does your VV do against 12" moving vindis? You would only hit on 6s, and the vehicle damage chart isn't that kind to you. So there is a good chance to do nothing and then get smoked next turn. At the very least you can bring an honor guard with 4 meltas, they are pretty decent as they come with their own built in priest. Also, my stepson will just simply take an assault marine squad and combat squad them putting 2 meltas into a unit and deep strike the meltas close enough to shoot something.

 

Yup. Against tanks, I'd use melta - probably in a combat-squadded Assault Squad.

 

The more I read, though, the more I'm convinced that a balanced approach is strongest. I'll see how my list pans out as it gets bigger, but I'm definitely keeping heavy support options in mind.