Mobile fire support

[Demoulius]

small point on the storm raven (dont know if someone else mentioned it allready) relying on melta to bring them down is VERY unwise. they may just be AV 12 but they are immume to the extra D6 from melta weaponry...

[Brother_Byhlli]

small point on the storm raven (dont know if someone else mentioned it allready) relying on melta to bring them down is VERY unwise. they may just be AV 12 but they are immume to the extra D6 from melta weaponry...

 

Yup. Statistically you're not going to roll high enough on melta, plus it's short range means if you don't managed to destroy it, you're getting a pissed assault unit delivered in your face. If I was trying to take out a Stormraven, I'd be using lascannons or four-man missile troops of Devastators.

 

Stay away and put as many long-range low-AP high-strength shots into the thing as possible.

[Blindhamster]

four-man missile troops of Devastators

 

Yes.... come to the dark side :P

 

Just a picky-detail: if the plasma cannons need a priest to be safe, they cost 70 points more; not 20.

I'd suggest this isn't true, purely because most Blood Angel Players have an abundance of priests on the table anyway.

 

 

A tactic I'll be testing against my regular gaming buddies in the coming weeks will be to place a priest with Tactical squad and have them in the mid field (so their bolters are of use too), wait for enemies to charge them (or the tacticals to charge an enemy :tu: ) Then pile in a RAS that was waiting like a hunting spider... and in doing so both units get the benefit of the priest.

[Brother Ben]

It looks like the Stormraven debate has flooded over to this thread and hijacked it. Whether or not a melta weapon is effective against a Stormraven in no way, shape, or form helps Brother_Byhlli with what he is looking for. With that said...

 

@Brother_Byhlli

 

Just to recap on what it is your looking for. Your looking for something that can tie up a backfield unit, something similar to a unit of Devastators. If I recall correctly you were looking to avoid using tanks. Lastly, you are playing at 500 points and are looking at moving to 750 points.

 

There seems to be to trains of thought on how to deal with these types of units.

1) Shoot them

2) Tie them up in combat

 

You like the Vanguard Veterans, and I can see why. If you shoot at Devastators (or similar) they can shoot back. If you lock them into combat, you are effectively making them combat ineffective until the assaulting has be resolved. Vanguard Veterans can lock these units into combat, and they can do it on the turn they arrive. For the sack if this argument I am assuming that the dice roll favorably.

 

As you stated at the start all other "typical" option only shoot at the problem. They may be effective options, but the do not neutralize the threat. By neutralize I mean either kill or make combat ineffective (i.e. a Devastator squad with 4 missile launchers to shoot but are locked in combat).

 

With all that said, there is one other type of unit that can both:

1) Engage and neutralize a backfield unit

2) "put them to the sword."

 

The only con to what you are looking for is that it might not fit your theme of an all Jumper army.

 

Furioso Dreadnought

+Blood Talons

+Heavy Flamer

+Drop Pod

 

Comes in at 170 points. Only 5 points more then your proposed Vanguard Veteran Squad. This unit will be able to fulfill the same roll as your Vanguard at your points level, but with a few advantages.

 

1) AV13 Front Armor

2) WS6 and S6

3) Blood Talons (this has multiple advantages)

a) 4 Power Weapon attack on the charge

:cuss Re-roll failed rolls to wound

c) The ability to kill all the models in a unit in one round of combat.

4) Doesn't rely on a good reserve dice roll.

5) Effective Turn 1

6) Less chance of unfavorable scatter dice rolls

 

To further explain. AV13 is incredibly resilient. Yes a one lucky melta shot and its toast. However, most backfield units aren't carrying melta weapons, especially at the 750 points level. WS6 is an almost guaranteed 3+ to hit. S6 is an almost guaranteed 2+ to wound. Think about this a second, 2+ to wound. Combined that with Blood Talons and your re-rolling 1s, and then you get to attack again. The best advantage, at least in my opinion, is the reliability that you will get this unit on Turn 1, as per the Drop Pod Assault rule. This means that you will, generally, get this unit it into combat Turn 2. With the Vanguard Veterans, you need a favorable reserve roll, then a favorable scatter roll. Then if you are with in the 6" you can assault, but you can't shoot first. The Furioso is gets 2 rounds of shooting before the assault. With 2 Meltagun shots, and 2 Heavy Flamer templates, those Devastators are going to be hurting from Turn 1. The Heavy Flamer will also effectively deal with a "bubble wrap unit". Another reliability of the Drop Pod is that you can place it Danger Close to the unit you want to attack, with less fear of Deep Strike Mishaps. Yes they will happen, but not to the extent of a non-drop pod deep strike.

 

Furioso Dreadnoughts are also effective at anti-tank roles. It has a Meltagun, coupled with the Drop Pod means that you will probably get 2d6 penetration more often then not. If the Meltagun fails, next turn shoot and assault it. Yes they could move the tank away from assault range and/or shoot your Furioso. If they do that then you are effectively neutralizing that tank from shooting your Assault Squad. The Blood Talons are effective against most tanks, S6 against the "typical" AV10 Rear Armor. It is not the best Anti Tank unit, but is just as effective as your 165 Point Vanguard Veteran Squad. If I recall the Blood Talon rule also works on tanks, but don't quote me on that.

 

It's late and I think that I might just be rattling on. If I typed something that was worded confusingly, let me know and I will clarify.

 

Thoughts? Comments?

 

-Brother Ben

[d503]

I second the furioso dread idea, but mine carries a frag cannon and a meltagun. I find the frag cannon with it's rending and cover-ignoring antics utterly tears apart rear-field units of all kinds, and the fact it still has a DCCW makes it handy for killing tanks too - it's much more versatile IMO.

 

Again though, be careful with fielding only jumpers. By all means do it, but you are limiting yourself away from some beautifully effective supporting units that will be the yang to your jump-trooper's yin.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Brother Ben

 

You're thoroughly trawling the barrel of our forum here, aren't you? :D I think this post is over a month old, haha!

 

But, thanks for pulling it up. The question has become less important to me personally as my army is becoming more settled and has developed up above 1,500 points, but it's still a valid question for others who are starting out. The basic issue of whether Vanguard Veterans are valid backline harassment units is still valid, too, since they're pretty much confined to that role unless you're relying on dropping multiple units in close proximity to each other (for Feel No Pain and Furious Charge).

 

The problem with a Furioso Dreadnought in my opinion is that while you do get a round of shooting against the unit you're planning on damaging, they also get a round of shooting at you. And if we're talking about disrupting a backline heavy weapons team, that probably means four missile launchers, or some lascannons, or whatever, being pointed directly at your 170 points of death walker. You absolutely can't kill them all in your first turn of shooting and the danger presented to you from S8 or S9 missile and lascannons or S8+2D6 melta is extremely real. You're looking at maybe three hits out of four shots and for missile launchers you can be fairly sure that one of those hits will at least glance, if not penetrate. A battery of lascannons is coming awfully close to statistically getting two glancing or penetrating hits. In my opinion, really too risky.

 

Drop Pods I think are mostly viable if you use a good number of them. Even three of them in your list means two Dreadnoughts coming down on turn one and suddenly you're not only doing more damage but also making it significantly more likely that one of them will survive to charge in the following turn. But at that point you're doubling the points cost of the Vanguard Veteran Squad.

 

Actually, my response to long-range fire support in most situations at the moment is to ignore it. Because I flood the field with so many jump infantry bodies, I have come to accept that some of them will die on their way across the board, but will leave the army itself totally viable due to the number of bodies that are still there. Also, because my entire army is designed for combat, I have a good chance that my units are going to be tying themselves and the opponent up in combat, which keeps them safe from long-range fire support.

 

I have more playing to do to confirm to myself whether this is truly viable, but honestly I haven't yet come across any long-range danger that I can't deal with ultimately by ignoring it as I cross the board and then smashing its face in. (Obviously, I don't entirely ignore these threats. What I mean is that, while I will hide my units behind such terrain as is available either to totally deny line-of-sight or to provide a cover save, I don't take anything that is specifically intended to deal with long-range fire support.)

 

In my more recent lists I've developed a taste for Stormravens and Land Raiders, which interestingly have a different approach. Although they tend to have less use against things like Devastator Squads, they're heavily useful against enemy tanks, which oftentimes play the role of long-distance fire support.

 

Gah. I'm now not thinking in straight lines. The beer has taken effect and I'm not longer writing real thoughts. Rubbish.

 

I'm off.