Is Loken a psyker?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Many people may not be happy with this topic but it almost got another topic locked so I thought it would be best to start a new one.

Oh NO YOU did not.....

 

Yep. I'm just sitting back and watching this topic.

Yeh, /RIGHT/! You are just like me. We are both like Roger Rabbit. Perrin just knocked "A shave and a hair cut..."

 

To answer the opening post though; even if Loken was insane he probably would have been able to use his powers while on Istvaan

to fight Garro's lot and the plague zombies. He probably would have been making enough "noise" for Rubio to psychically hear over the ghosts of the dead as well.

Guess this is a s good a place to wade in.

 

1) I think the word "power" describes exactly what Loken was showing,

to fight both Garro and the City/ Planet full of Plaguebearers daemons. He was there for by my calculations, at least 4 years ish. Alone. With out food, water. Unable to die. He tired to commit suicide at least once. He was like Tom Hanks in Castaway but Wilson was a Real dead guy and he had to fight a endless supply of daemons, every day.

 

When Garro fights Loken, he is in the Best gear the Empire can make. Has a Master Crafted Power Sword, and has not been fighting for his life, every day for the past x amount of years, with no resources. Loken on the other hand has gear that is described as "Blackend, War-damaged, 0:35 track 3 Lo1. Later as a Abomination, Beast, ragged. Got to give Garro credit, as he dose put up a fight but knows he can't beat Loken. Power fueled by madness and rage,

sounds like psychic's to me. The Same power that almost got Abaddon clipped in their fight pg 396 of Gif.

 

 

2) Rubio /DID/ hear Loken's "noise", over the ghosts of the dead.

Starting at 3:05 on track 7 of Legion of one. He searches for him but at first is unable to cut through the background noise because of the large number of people killed there 1:25 - 3:05 Track 7. Only after using his Psychic Hood is he able to filter out the dead chatter. I think there were thousands of ghosts in the area. It was a Very large building and important in the middle of the city. The story makes it very clear that there is massive psychic background interference, i feel that he was able to hear him at all, indicates that Loken's mind was strong. At 2:42 track 10 Rubio admits he cant touch his mind, says "the Turmoil is too strong, like a great mealstrom."

 

 

 

I think that people are getting too hung up on the "8 marines that founded the GK" business... Yes this may turn out to be Garro and his crew but at this point in time we don't know. Only 1 out of the 4 named marines featured in the audiobooks is even a librarian so I don't see why Loken has to manifest powers and the other two don't...

 

1) Sure we don't know, but this is a theory, not a fact. If we knew for sure we would not have to debate it.

 

It is at the heart of my theory that these 8 Astartes are a large part of what the HH is all about and a good part of the Tellers of the story. I will concede it is possible that we have not been introduced to them and could never be. But what fun is there in that? I think it is much more likely that by the time we get to the siege of Terra we will know them very well. I also feel that the clues we do know about Garro and his band fit very neatly into a what we know about the 8. We know they Come from the Traitor Legions. Garro wears Grey Armour. He Is called a Knight Errant. Has what will become the symbol of the =][= on their Armour. We also know Malcador is the prime force behind the 8 and Garro gets the orders directly from him. Garro is given a list of names to recruit for the Sigilte, and Loken is the last name on that list. Theses things to me add up clearly.

 

2) An Astartes dose not have to be a Librarian to be a Psyker, its the other way around. Also you say the other 2 do not. Well i feel Garro has on several occasions been hinted at be a psyker him self.

 

A) When he reaches Luna and encounters the SoS.

 

B ) In the Lo1

1:54 - 4:00, Track 4, i believe Garro has a reading of a object.

Psychometry, PG 172 Dark Heresy RPG. "With this power you can read the psychic traces that others leave behind,..."

 

C) I have no info on Verran..

 

From the other thread this topic nearly took over, it has the collected visions quote refering to 12 marines selected by Malcador, 4 who knelt before the Emperor first are referred to as 4 who are known to him and former marines from traitor legions.

Im sorry but you have this ALL Wrong. For clairity again.... the Quote.

'Sire, when last we met you commanded me to gather together a group of people whose loyalty to you and the Imperium was unquestioning. This I have done. I have worked long and hard to find those I thought would suit. I have personally overseen every aspect of the exhaustive test to which they have been subjected and can vouch for their character, loyalty and strength of their mind. They have many skills and will serve you well.'

 

Malcador gestured to the hooded figures behind him, as he did so four of them stepped forward and knelt before the Emperor. The Emperor nodded and acknowledgment of the their show of fealty to him.

 

'Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine . They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous command. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know they will be needed in the coming years'

 

'Malcador you have judged well, these eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy will they be.'

The first 4 of the 12 hooded figures are non Astartes.

 

We don't even know that the 8 founding members are even psykers to begin with nor would they need to psykers. Perhaps they were merely selected because of their extreme loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium. The Emperor probably expected them to bestow that loyalty, courge, honor, etc onto the psyker recruits waiting on Titan and forge them into the weapon the Imperium needed most to protect the future from daemons and chaos.

 

You are right that we don't know that the 8 are psykers but we do know they have "allied to their unflinching loyalty they each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your(Emp) previous command." What kind of "paranormal skills" can be "kept dormant"? On a list that has to be really short, psychic powers has to be at the top. The part that they go on to become the founders of a all psychic order is a not so small clue also. To me this is all is to do with Council of Nikaea. That is the place ware the Emperor gave out the order, that could be seen as to "keep dormant" psyker abilities. If there is a better explanation i'm open to it.

 

I don't think Loken is a psyker. If you search this forum you can find a few discussion titled "Loken Alive?" etc where we've discussed it to death (We got locked, it was going a bit circular)

 

But really you can always say "It's up to the author" and it is. The BL team can always pull a sneaky one and write something to try and explain it, but it would just fell wrong to me. I mean I kind of like Loken being dead. And I can't see where him returning with glowing eyes would really add anything and not stink a bit of laziness/indecisiveness. I'd probably still enjoy the books, but it would take some of the shine off it for me.

Have you listened to Garro: Legion of One? Because

That is exactly what happens.

 

 

It was never the people like me, who said Loken was alive, that pushed for those threads to be closed. It was people who felt Loken was dead, who thought people would not "listen to reason". People who feel that it cant be proved so its false. Taking the Time to provide quotes is looked at as making circular arguments. Daring to attempt to read between the lines, is called making up cannon.

 

This site is called bolterandchainsword, but try and argue about a Astartes who used, a bolter and a chainsword, to much and the power gets pulled on the whole gig.

 

 

Well, i just thought it was an interesting thing to discuss, surely that is the whole point of a forum? For people to talk about things that interest them.

There is no proof that Loken is a psyker, that is correct, but why does that stop people from talking about it? There have been a few topics about the Lost Legions, and they never get shot down due to lack of proof.

 

I didnt know i needed proof of something to talk about it <_<

 

If you arent interested in something... then dont open the thread? Thats pretty simple.

 

I honestly thought that this topic would bring about some interesting debate based on the amount that was written about it in the Best Marine topic, but obviously i was wrong.

 

If there are any mods reading this can you lock/delete this thread please? I'm not sure if I can do it myself and theres not really any point in keeping it open sadly.

 

EDIT: This mini-rant is directed mostly at Gunslinger and Lord Caerolion, and to a smaller extent ADB, not to the other people who contributed to this thread with posts about what i had wrote.

Hey man sorry. You should not have had to be the target for the firing squad. I will carry the water from here. Thank you for the company. It gets lonely way out here on this limb.

 

I get snippy about this topic because it's already been debated to death in other threads ...

 

You started this thread in the style of a debate, except that only the negative side had any points, with the positive only having "yeah but... it's possible!" Discussing the Lost Legions is possible because we know they existed, and we have been given snippets of information to work with. The psychic abilities of Loken, on the other hand, are nothing more than rampant speculation. There is nothing to discuss about it. The only thing that can be said for the affirmitive is "it'd be cool". Even A D-B, an author with knowledge of what is planned for the series, has discounted the theory.

 

By all means, you can continue the "discussion", but you have just as much backing as saying the Tyranids are one of the Lost Legions. After all, we know the Lost Legions existed, and GW can do whatever they want with their IP, so it's just as valid a theory as Loken being a psyker. As it stands, there cannot be a discussion, because there is nothing to discuss, unless you just want rampant wishing and speculation. All evidence in every book gives no hints to him being a psyker. A D-B has even said that being selected by Garro doesn't necessarily mean being one of the first Grey Knights, and discounts him being a Librarian in this very thread. People can want him to be a psyker all they want, but wishing does not make it so.

 

 

....... two Bites!!!

 

Interesting how you seem to look down at these "discussions" yet seem to post so often. "All evidence in every book gives no hints to him being a psyker" yet i offer quote after quote to back up my ideas. You just shoot them down with out offering anything other then opinion. You never seem to want to consider for a moment you could be wrong. How sure again were you that Loken was dead? How impossible was it to survive bombs that could flatten city's? Was that also "rampant wishing and speculation?"

 

"as much backing as saying the Tyranids are one of the Lost Legions".................... Why would you even bother to post on a thread with this type of nonsense? I think this is a low blow. Ill be ok, just give me a few moments to gather my self.

[Reyner]

Here is your answer. Sorry if this causes any odd looks towards you when you click it <_<

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I think people just want to splooge of the idea that loken became a psyker god like warrior simply because he was awsome in the books, he was awsome without the powers and thusly doesnt need them and this because he has a greater power, the power to teach others how to be resilient to evil. If he will defy his own Primarch/ farther figure and cast him to damnation he is truly worthy to teach the next genoration how to do so.

[Walter Payton]

Next week's thread title: Is Loken a woman?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Interesting how you seem to look down at these "discussions" yet seem to post so often. "All evidence in every book gives no hints to him being a psyker" yet i offer quote after quote to back up my ideas. You just shoot them down with out offering anything other then opinion. You never seem to want to consider for a moment you could be wrong. How sure again were you that Loken was dead? How impossible was it to survive bombs that could flatten city's? Was that also "rampant wishing and speculation?"

 

"as much backing as saying the Tyranids are one of the Lost Legions".................... Why would you even bother to post on a thread with this type of nonsense? I think this is a low blow. Ill be ok, just give me a few moments to gather my self.

 

No, you offer quote after quote that only after twisting fit your answer. You've come to your conclusion, and look through the books for anything that can tenuously be linked to support it. Cases in point, Loken "telepathically reading" Lucius in their fight, or the "Librarians use symbolism, the Mournival uses symbolism, therefore the Mournival are Librarians". I can only discount your quotes, unless you'd rather me quote the massive, massive sections in which Loken/Garro don't display anything even vaguely matching the loosest descriptions of psychic powers. I'll also point out that in your big counter-argument to prove your position, you ignore the posts by A D-B regarding your stance.

 

I can, however, point you towards the comments of A D-B stating that Loken isn't a psyker. He's commented on this topic numerous times, saying that being recruited by Garro in no way means he's one of the Grey Knights, and that he isn't a psyker. You've got direct quotes from a member of the HH team, who is a participant in the discussions as to what will happen in the series, who is saying that this speculation is false. I'm not sure how more clear we can make it.

I try to keep an open mind, yet I read the entire opening trilogy before first hearing the "Loken's a Grey Knight and an ex-Librarian!" arguments, yet I had never once in any of the three books noticed even a hint of Loken being psychic.

 

As I've also said, I "look down" on these discussions, because these are how internet "facts" are started. I already suffer from one of these, playing Night Lords with the ever present "Night Lords are nothing but Raptors!" fallacy, started in just this way. One person asks something as a theory, another half-remembers it as fact and presents it as such, yet more take it as fact, and the snowball continues to build.

We have a Horus Heresy team member "unsubtly hinting" that Loken isn't a psyker. If there's one thing you can say about A D-B, it's that he's open with his fans, and doesn't deliberately lie to them. So no, as much as you may wish to read into the subject, Loken is not a psyker. He is not intended to be a psyker. He will not be revealed to be a psyker.

 

Regarding the other threads being locked, it was because they were only going in circles. Nothing you could say could convince us, nothing we said could convince you, much like it is now, so the thread simply went in circles, the same things being repeated over and over. So please, don't attempt to play the victim, acting like the voice of truth being oppressed by the system. As I said above, if you would like me to provide quotes as to Loken not being psychic, here you go.

*snip*

 

*snip*

 

*snip*

 

Finally, I'm doing my part, and providing quotes showing Loken isn't psychic! Really, what were you expecting? That I'd point to a passage you'd not noticed, which read "And then Loken wished he were psychic, so he could telepathically read the mind of his enemy. Alas, he wasn't psychic"? You're making the positive claim, it's up to you to prove your point, not up to us to disprove you. Otherwise, I'll ask for quotes proving that the Tyranids aren't a Lost Legion. If not, you're just not "reading between the lines", as you put it.

You call it reading between the lines, yet you never once take the time to think that you're reading things that simply aren't there, yet you convince yourself that they are. I have provided credible, logical counter-arguments to all your arguments regarding him being psychic, and have a member of the HH team backing this position up. You simply repeat the same arguments over and over, accusing those who disagree as not reading between the lines.

 

Lastly, I don't see how Loken using a bolter and chainsword is relevant at all to the topic at hand. Yes, it's also the forum name, but last I checked there aren't any forum rules giving preferential treatment to the discussion of characters wielding those items. Lokens bolter and chainsword mean nothing on Bolter and Chainsword.

 

With this, good sirs, I retire from this debate. I'm tired of repeating the same arguments over and over, only to have the same lines thrown back at me. I don't know what else we can do. We've provided arguments, we've provided what quotes we can, we've even got a Horus Heresy writer himself staunchly disagreeing with the position. There is literally nothing more I can do in this debate, short of hope for a line in the next book, explicitly and unarguably stating that Loken is not a psyker. Apparently nothing else is good enough. Now, I'm off.

[The Broker]

Lorne Walkier wouldn't stop believing Loken was a psyker unless Alan Merrett,Dan Abnett and Jervis Johnson made a podcast denying it.

 

And even then he'd "read between the lines" and start braying about how Loken's a pariah.

[Skirax]

He has already split Alpharius into two and turned his Legion into maybe loyal maybe not, and turned the SW into fake barbarians.

Well, one, the Alpharius Omegon theory has been established canon for a while, mostly as a rumour, but widely accepted and almost definitely confirmed. Two, I don't agree with your second point, but that's your opinion, and changing that would be as hard as changing the tides.

 

And Lorne Walkier, I'm actually concerned about your knowledge and interpretations :)

[Tutteman]

I don't think Loken is a psyker. If you search this forum you can find a few discussion titled "Loken Alive?" etc where we've discussed it to death (We got locked, it was going a bit circular)

 

But really you can always say "It's up to the author" and it is. The BL team can always pull a sneaky one and write something to try and explain it, but it would just fell wrong to me. I mean I kind of like Loken being dead. And I can't see where him returning with glowing eyes would really add anything and not stink a bit of laziness/indecisiveness. I'd probably still enjoy the books, but it would take some of the shine off it for me.

Have you listened to Garro: Legion of One? Because

That is exactly what happens.

 

 

It was never the people like me, who said Loken was alive, that pushed for those threads to be closed. It was people who felt Loken was dead, who thought people would not "listen to reason". People who feel that it cant be proved so its false. Taking the Time to provide quotes is looked at as making circular arguments. Daring to attempt to read between the lines, is called making up cannon.

 

This site is called bolterandchainsword, but try and argue about a Astartes who used, a bolter and a chainsword, to much and the power gets pulled on the whole gig.

 

 

I haven't listened it no, I'm afraid I'm somewhat restricted in funds due to being an unemployed student and I GW stuff was near the top of the list of things I don't need. Shame really but ah well can't say audiobooks are my thing. Might give it a try if money falls into my lap. Is it any good?

 

And to be honest the real reason those threads got locked was because someone would put forward a theory of how Loken would survive. Someone else would try and shoot this down. Someone else would present a minor variation on the theory, someone else would try to shoot it down. It wasn't going anywhere and lets face it, we were just going carry on rehashing the same ground so it got locked. I certainly don't remember pushing for the thread to be closed but I certainly understand why it was :P This site IS called BolterAndChainsword. But it is not "Let sit and waste time watching a bunch of pig headed guys argue over a fictional maybe dead/maybe alive guy" (And I will willing accept the "HE'S DEAD JIM" faction are/were just as pig headed and the "ALIVE" faction ;) )

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

No, you offer quote after quote that only after twisting fit your answer. You've come to your conclusion, and look through the books for anything that can tenuously be linked to support it. Cases in point, Loken "telepathically reading" Lucius in their fight, or the "Librarians use symbolism, the Mournival uses symbolism, therefore the Mournival are Librarians". I can only discount your quotes, unless you'd rather me quote the massive, massive sections in which Loken/Garro don't display anything even vaguely matching the loosest descriptions of psychic powers. I'll also point out that in your big counter-argument to prove your position, you ignore the posts by A D-B regarding your stance.

If you think i am getting the quotes wrong please point out what i missed. If you think im Twisting the meaning i can understand that. I am as you said searching for information in the books to support a conclusion i have made. I freely admit that. That dose not make my conclusion invalid. I think the word tenuous accurately describes some of the points i try and make. I have admitted that i am out on a limb. I am aware that most people feel im flat wrong. I think the writers have intentionally tried to obfuscate the answers i seek. If they did not i think the story might be worse. I see it as good writing having hidden meanings right in plain site. Just like they did with the fate of Loken. They knew that Loken was going to live past Isstvaan III before Horus Rising but went out of their way to convince us that he would die. Why? I don't think the idea that they changed their mind after the popularity of Loken became clear holds water, do you? I think they calculated that when people found out that Loken was alive when they were sure he was dead, they would become even more enthralled by the story. If they knew he was going to live, as i have argued, then they as good writers, would give themselves cover from the inevitable backlash that was sure to come from those who they fooled. They would have to have parts of the stories they can point to and say it foreshadowed his survival. I chose to not wait for them and looked for these hints before it was clear the end was survival. The books were already out, why wait? If you re read the books with the knowledge that Loken Lives many parts show different meanings. Like looking at a bed with a black light. In the light that most use a bed might look clean, a black light shows a much different picture.

 

The 1st dual between Lucius and Loken is one such event. If you feel Loken dies on Istvaan III then i think it is easy to over look the hidden meaning and importance of this scene. If Loken is just a another dead body on a forgotten world who cares what he said to Lucius "the Eternal". Simple enough to chalk up his win to luck or as you might think, using an old warrior talent to study ones foe to gain a competitive advantage over him. On the surface i agree that is what it appears. If on the other hand you view this scene with the idea that Loken is going to live beyond Isstvaan, maybe well beyond, maybe long enough to himself be considered "eternal" then you might see some hidden meanings. We know what happens to Lucius. If Loken goes on to become one of the founding Grey Knights then a win in a duel with this ARCH multi-traitor becomes a very important moment. Now turn it up a notch. If Loken is also a psyker, something while seemingly unlikely, would fit nicely into the idea that he is a Grey Knight, dose that not offer a possible alternate explanation as to how Loken was able to defeat Lucius? Lusius is described as the best humanity had produced with a blade. Yet Loken, a unenthusiastic participant in the dual, is able to defeat him in two shakes of a lambs tail? You feel he just read him like people have been doing from the start. I think that is what Abnette wanted people to think, but not the truth. Not only did Loken beat Lucius, he told him how he was going to do it. Told him this would not just be about blades. Told him he could read him. Him, the best humanity had produced with a blade. Him, a villain destined to become known throughout the galaxy as a Warrior with "Martial Pride". Add to this the person doing the reading goes on to become 1 of 8 Founders of a all Pysker order. With one of the descriptions being that they had Powers held dormant. Yes i know its a LOT of "ifs"

 

You can do the same thing with most of the scenes with Loken in them. The Mornivouls joining Ceremony is another. If Loken dies on Isstvaan III, his oath that only death will break meant little. But if he Lives........ he has a unbreakable "link" with some one who will in time lead the whole rebel force for the next 10k years.

I can, however, point you towards the comments of A D-B stating that Loken isn't a psyker. He's commented on this topic numerous times, saying that being recruited by Garro in no way means he's one of the Grey Knights, and that he isn't a psyker. You've got direct quotes from a member of the HH team, who is a participant in the discussions as to what will happen in the series, who is saying that this speculation is false. I'm not sure how more clear we can make it.

I try to keep an open mind, yet I read the entire opening trilogy before first hearing the "Loken's a Grey Knight and an ex-Librarian!" arguments, yet I had never once in any of the three books noticed even a hint of Loken being psychic.

Ill quote my self...

 

"Now as for Mr A D-B, I will admit that his comments hear give me SERIOUS pause. It was his comments on his BLog that was the tipping point in the "is Loken alive" debate. Although he did not agree with how it happened, he made it CLEAR for any who would listen that Loken would be back. Though some would STILL not give in and go with me, most at least kept their thoughts to them selves. I have no doubt that IF Loken is indeed a psyker, that A D-B would have access to that info. I only can hope that i misinterpreted his comments and he was not blowing big holes in my idea. "

 

You say " You've got direct quotes from a member of the HH team, who is a participant in the discussions as to what will happen in the series, who is saying that this speculation is false." but i see A D-B saying "You have no idea how much I want to type "Oh my, no." right now.", and "I'm trying to save you time, dude, through the medium of unsubtle hinting." I say again that this gives me SERIOUS pause. What i choose to do with my time is up to me. There is no need to save me from myself. I do not see this as a categorical rebuke of everything i feel on the matter. Maybe i should.

 

Lastly, I don't see how Loken using a bolter and chainsword is relevant at all to the topic at hand. Yes, it's also the forum name, but last I checked there aren't any forum rules giving preferential treatment to the discussion of characters wielding those items. Lokens bolter and chainsword mean nothing on Bolter and Chainsword.

Wow. I was trying to say that i find it frustrating that talking about ideas i have about 40k on a 40k fan fiction site could be viewed as irrelevant. I see it as ironic that Loken's using a bolter and chainsword in every description of him thus far in war, dose not elevate him to a higher status here.

 

"Lokens bolter and chainsword mean nothing on Bolter and Chainsword"... wow.

 

With this, good sirs, I retire from this debate. I'm tired of repeating the same arguments over and over, only to have the same lines thrown back at me. I don't know what else we can do. We've provided arguments, we've provided what quotes we can, we've even got a Horus Heresy writer himself staunchly disagreeing with the position. There is literally nothing more I can do in this debate, short of hope for a line in the next book, explicitly and unarguably stating that Loken is not a psyker. Apparently nothing else is good enough. Now, I'm off.

Well i bid you adue. Untill the next time i guess.

 

And Lorne Walkier, I'm actually concerned about your knowledge and interpretations :D

 

Thanks for the concern. I hope i make it through this in one piece.

 

I haven't listened it no, I'm afraid I'm somewhat restricted in funds due to being an unemployed student and I GW stuff was near the top of the list of things I don't need. Shame really but ah well can't say audiobooks are my thing. Might give it a try if money falls into my lap. Is it any good?

Yes, i think it is great. It might be that i am bias. I have read that others, who had felt Loken should have died, felt that it could have been done worse.

 

And to be honest the real reason those threads got locked was because someone would put forward a theory of how Loken would survive. Someone else would try and shoot this down. Someone else would present a minor variation on the theory, someone else would try to shoot it down. It wasn't going anywhere and lets face it, we were just going carry on rehashing the same ground so it got locked. I certainly don't remember pushing for the thread to be closed but I certainly understand why it was :P This site IS called BolterAndChainsword. But it is not "Let sit and waste time watching a bunch of pig headed guys argue over a fictional maybe dead/maybe alive guy" (And I will willing accept the "HE'S DEAD JIM" faction are/were just as pig headed and the "ALIVE" faction :) )

 

For my part in the pig headed waste of time i can only say it was not my intention. I try and read every word more then once and answer all points made. I am ok with having my ideas used for target practice. Some times it dose get to me but i try and let it make me stronger. I don't see the benefit in shutting down conversation, even if it is circular. It reaks of censorship. Are we not free to not post or read these forums? I have had many of my ideas simply ignored to death. If no one wants to interact by posting or reading so be it. Asking for a thread to be closed by posting in the thread only serves to keep it going. If you let it slip off page 1 the chances for it to stay dead go WAY up.

[Tutteman]

And to be honest the real reason those threads got locked was because someone would put forward a theory of how Loken would survive. Someone else would try and shoot this down. Someone else would present a minor variation on the theory, someone else would try to shoot it down. It wasn't going anywhere and lets face it, we were just going carry on rehashing the same ground so it got locked. I certainly don't remember pushing for the thread to be closed but I certainly understand why it was :lol: This site IS called BolterAndChainsword. But it is not "Let sit and waste time watching a bunch of pig headed guys argue over a fictional maybe dead/maybe alive guy" (And I will willing accept the "HE'S DEAD JIM" faction are/were just as pig headed and the "ALIVE" faction ;) )

 

For my part in the pig headed waste of time i can only say it was not my intention. I try and read every word more then once and answer all points made. I am ok with having my ideas used for target practice. Some times it dose get to me but i try and let it make me stronger. I don't see the benefit in shutting down conversation, even if it is circular. It reaks of censorship. Are we not free to not post or read these forums? I have had many of my ideas simply ignored to death. If no one wants to interact by posting or reading so be it. Asking for a thread to be closed by posting in the thread only serves to keep it going. If you let it slip off page 1 the chances for it to stay dead go WAY up.

 

I'm sure you did read carefully everything put against you, I certainly did. But lets face it, neither of us was going to be convinced. I think one of the main issues with letting such a circular argument run around is that there is far to big a risk it'll just turn into personal mudslinging. I wouldn't call it censorship any more then breaking up a playground argument that has descended into simple contradiction is (There's a Monty Python Sketch there :D )

[Perrin]

Lorne, you're my saviour :teehee:

 

Firstly I'm just going to reply to some of the posts that have come up after my last post, sorry if anyone feels ive missed anything out or that im purposefully overlooking facts because that is definetly not what im doing.

 

He has already split Alpharius into two and turned his Legion into maybe loyal maybe not, and turned the SW into fake barbarians.

Well, one, the Alpharius Omegon theory has been established canon for a while, mostly as a rumour, but widely accepted and almost definitely confirmed. Two, I don't agree with your second point, but that's your opinion, and changing that would be as hard as changing the tides.

 

And Lorne Walkier, I'm actually concerned about your knowledge and interpretations :P

 

I actually wrote what i meant about the Space Wolves badly, as I meant Russ rather than the Legion and later Chapter themselves. In Prospero Burns Russ is described to be putting on the act of a barbarian king or something along those lines. Im afraid i dont remember the exact quote but what i read, and what people said in discussions after the book had been released showed that Russ was almost a fake barbarian, i see it as fact rather than my own opinion.

 

Another thing, is the repeated saying that ADB has "stated" that Loken isnt a psyker. Although english is my main language, and actually the only one i read or speak, and despite the fact that i read all the time etc etc I may have missed the part of this topic where ADB actually said "Loken is not a psyker". He has said a number of things that probably show he disagrees with this idea, and that some people have said that he has stated "Being recruited by Garro doesnt mean you are a Grey Knight/psyker", I have never read anything like that on this forum, but maybe i have and just forgot it. So basically, dont say other people twist facts and read between the lines to sure-up their own statements and opinions when you do the same thing with what another poster has said.

 

Also, I disagree that a topic cant be discussed unless there is solid proof, and without it the discussion is just speculation... And?

Without speculation there would never be any threads about rumours of new armies or codexs, another 40kforum that i occasionly look at actually has a sub-forum called News and Rumours, if a rumour was backed up by solid facts then it would be News, not a Rumour, so there is a need for speculation to encourage debate.

 

At the moment I think that the events of the first Salamander novel and the 8 marines before the Emperor are the life-lines of this idea. If im honest i dont see any other ways Loken could be a psyker, but until both of these ideas are disproved i will still debate this topic.

[Retributis]

I may have missed the part of this topic where ADB actually said "Loken is not a psyker".

 

Is Loken a psyker?

 

 

You have no idea how much I want to type "Oh my, no." right now.

[eyescrossed]

Oh lord, Perrin. The irony.

[Aegnor]

But Perrin, even in Nick Kyme's Salamander novel, there were several indications that Dakir was abnormal before the Librarius claimed him. Eg, the constant unsubtle surveillance of him by the apothecary and the Librarian Pyriel; his persistent visionary dreams; the way he unusually remembered the detail of his life before he received the geneseed; and his tendency to go into trance states in which he turned store rooms upside down hunting down an artifact with the psychic imprint of his Primarch on it.

 

Loken never really did anything like that, did he?

[Sazabi24]

This won't end until the next story featuring Loken includes a line that states something along the lines of "LOKEN IS NO PSYKER"

[Morollan]

This won't end until the next story featuring Loken includes a line that states something along the lines of "LOKEN IS NO PSYKER"

 

Let's hope it also clears up whether he's a giraffe.

[The 13th Goat]

This won't end until the next story featuring Loken includes a line that states something along the lines of "LOKEN IS NO PSYKER"

 

Let's hope it also clears up whether he's a giraffe.

 

 

;)

 

Sig'd, because that comment sum's up this entire thread.

[ninja6fett]

I'm just gonna repeat what I said in the Best Marine from a Legion thread. Since none of it seemed to stick:

 

"I'm gonna say this again:

 

They test you for that stuff.

 

The whole bit in the Salamander series with that main character is considered a gigantic anomaly AND that Salamander is considerably younger than either Garro or Loken when that happens."

[Walter Payton]

This won't end until the next story featuring Loken includes a line that states something along the lines of "LOKEN IS NO PSYKER"

 

Let's hope it also clears up whether he's a giraffe.

 

I feel that there is a wealth of evidence to suggest that he is in fact the Trololololo guy.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

This won't end until the next story featuring Loken includes a line that states something along the lines of "LOKEN IS NO PSYKER"

 

Wow. At 12:56 in the story Grey Angel, the narrator, speaking about Loken says.

"He was no psyker, but at that moment he felt that some how he perceived something beyond mortal senses." Loken then goes on to exhibit all kinds of warp type visons.

This story has red meat for both sides of this argument. Seems the authors are toying with us.

[Antarius]

I haven't listened it no, I'm afraid I'm somewhat restricted in funds due to being an unemployed student and I GW stuff was near the top of the list of things I don't need. Shame really but ah well can't say audiobooks are my thing. Might give it a try if money falls into my lap. Is it any good?

No. It's probably the worst piece of tripe the Black Library has put out so far.

I'll freely confess I'm not keen on the idea of Loken having mysteriously survive in the first place, but it could hardly have been done in a more pointless and ham-handed manner.

[Captain Tezdal]

I'm much more curious which writer takes on the task of bestowing psychic powers upon the GK World Eater (whatever his name was). Could as well admit a Carnifex to the Grey Knights and try it with one of those.

 

World Eaters had psykers... they just happened to murder them when they started strapping on the bunny ears, so any non traitor World Eater could very well be one of their libbys, seems like a darn good reason to stay loyal eh?

[jeremy1391]

Maybe we are all psykers ;)

[KJB]

This won't end until the next story featuring Loken includes a line that states something along the lines of "LOKEN IS NO PSYKER"

 

Wow. At 12:56 in the story Grey Angel, the narrator, speaking about Loken says.

"He was no psyker, but at that moment he felt that some how he perceived something beyond mortal senses." Loken then goes on to exhibit all kinds of warp type visons.

This story has red meat for both sides of this argument. Seems the authors are toying with us.

 

Or at 24:36

where Loken realises that it was the Watcher in the Dark that allowed him to sense those things...

 

 

Sorry dude

[Lord Ragnarok]

Yeah before "Grey Angel" I also believed he may have latent psyker abilities. But no more.