Dark Angels in new C:SM

[exsulis81]

Wow, what are you on? The 4e SM codex was by far more powerful than the 4e DA codex, even the BA pdf was better..... The only things cheaper were the Dakka preds, and some transports. Everything else became more expensive, less useful, and more restricted. Coupled with the TERRIBLE rules writing it literally was on the bottom of the barrel as there was no weaker, less thought out, and not play tested codex.

 

That's not entirely true and you know it. If you were around back then most of the discussion was around DA squads costing more because they had pistols and grenades rolled into their profile while old C:SM had to pay for them. Looking back and comparing it to current we see it's a pile of dung but there were more than enough complaints back then about why DA were getting "free pistols/grenades" plus combat squads.

 

It is a 100% true, and you know it!!! Yeah, I remember the whole two of those conversations.

 

And then this "Great, a squad that will NEVER assault into terrain is getting useless equipment, and Having to Pay for it,"

 

"Oh my, we have pistols, now we can shoot, and assault into combat."

"Sorry, read the rules"

"What you do you mean?"

"If you fire your pistol, the rapid fire rule for the bolter prevents you from assaulting."

;)

 

It took a Faq to allow us legally to assault after shooting as most people called BS, I had stores, and a tournament call that.

 

Remember the assaulting out of a Drop pod that lasted a whole week? I called that iffy at best, and watched another person pick up their army, and walk away.

[Droma]

No one who could actually read the rules required the FAQ. Some people being morons doesn't mean those were the most prevalent or most important parts of the 4th ed DA discussion. It wasn't the best codex released but it certainly wasn't the worst like your original post was trying to claim. That's one of the reasons we saw a huge increase in bike/termie lists everyone saw the boys in green and either didn't want to be forced to pay extra for the grenades pistols compared to their C:SM 4th ed counter parts or when C:SM 5th came out they were pissed because C:SM got everything and for cheaper to boot. So our average troops sucked compared to everyone is true but DW and Ravenwing were both generally considered better.

[Lord_Hail]

Thank you Droma, my brother owned a da army right before the DA's new book came out; couldn't get the old da rule book at that time. Played and liked sm but looked forward to the new da book. Literaly he had an opponent drop the f bomb 12 times and call him a liar about 10 times (he played him the week before as sm). They only got half way befor our store owner had to ask him to leave because he was so out of control about how "broken" the book was compared to his sm. The book was the foundation for sm now, and no they souldn't be rolled into the Smurf book (once you play a guy with calgar in black templar paint you start to wonder); because no buddy wants to see DW termies as troops in a um codex in Salamader colors... rantish rant done sorry.

[exsulis81]

It wasn't the best codex released but it certainly wasn't the worst like your original post was trying to claim. That's one of the reasons we saw a huge increase in bike/termie lists everyone saw the boys in green and either didn't want to be forced to pay extra for the grenades pistols compared to their C:SM 4th ed counter parts or when C:SM 5th came out they were pissed because C:SM got everything and for cheaper to boot. So our average troops sucked compared to everyone is true but DW and Ravenwing were both generally considered better.

 

Yes, it is indeed the Worst codex. I'm not exaggerating in the slightest. How many other codexes received a send the junky thing back to GW with a letter campaign? Haha, that lasted a whole 5 minutes so people could open the codex, and read how bad Codex Terrible was written. Because simply they realized that most units that got grenades/pistols didn't in fact use them, Ever! Then we get to the combat squad rule. The rule that didn't work. Hey I've got a Ravenwing Attack Squad but we rolled a Mission with Escalation(Vehicles come in from reserve)...... :( The Few(like 3 people) that wanted to go to the DA 4th were people who wanted some 2nd ed feel, and they didn't last long to realize just how Terrible this codex is. Then they went back to their Lysander Wing, or White scar Bikers.

 

DW was a joke until the errata to Storm Shields. Grey knight Terminators worked a lot better, and I mean miles. In the last 4 years, and until the errata my win ratio with DW was 0 wins, and a boat load of losses. I kept score for the first three months, and it went along the lines of this WLD 0/148/2. That is a whole lot of losses, and what changed it was dropping the DW from my entire army, and subbing Grey knight Terminators. The meta around me was Lysander Wings, and White Scars for Terminators, and Bikers. That is it.

 

RW are okay but their USR doesn't match the fluff, or their battlefield role, and they pay out the nose for what they get. If you want a shooty unit in the DA codex the RW is my choice.

 

It makes me laugh when everyone was all surprised at the DA getting cheap deathtrap transports. Remember the rhino wall walk your troops behind the deathtraps?

[Droma]

I don't think your experience with DA is at all like any elses. If you really had that many losses then I can only conclude it's you and not the codex.

[Order_of_the_Dragon]

OK, here's my thoughts on this particular subject.

 

I believe that having a seperate codex would be awesome. Given what they have done with the released codecies (codexes?) I believe this would mean we would see an increase in our overall army list options. I also would prefer a seperate codex for the fluff and other DA based information, as I have been out of the hobby for about 5 years with college, and a general breakdown of the gaming groups I had.

 

Assuming a new book is in our future, I believe this is what GW will do, if only for the money the DA Players (I think a larger number than most people expect/accept) that would bring to bear.

 

However, a single codex for all space marine chapters is also viable, atleast to me. As SCs become more allowed and prevalent, I don't see why we couldn't use SCs to generate our DW and RW lists. Or have a few pages for each specific chapter with different rules. Also I don't see why our unit entires couldn't be full of options that would cover each chapter. I know this is a little much to ask for but it just strikes me as something that could be done.

 

Again I have been largely unseen in the wargaming hobby for approximately 5 years. Having finally graduated I intend to change that and currently am almost ready to pain my 1850 deathwing army. It may be a DIY chapter, but it's still a successor chapter ... its orange ... even orange has it's secrets ... dO.ob

[Isiah]

Wow some real Codex hate going on in here. Let's get back to the issue at hand (thanks Order_of_the_Dragon).

 

Cheers

I

[shabbadoo]

To be honest, I would prefer one codex with all of the Chapters in it, as they would then all be co-developed and based upon the same core. But, and it is a big but, it would have to done the right way.

 

My "Codex: Adeptus Astartes" would be a 300 page hardcover tome filled with gobs of info and all of the rules for the big Chapters, plus background at the very least for many others. Each of the big Chapters would have a section in the book presenting their special rules, a list of available units from the core army list, provide any units that replace others(Space Wolves would have lots of those), and/or any additional units that are unique to them. The same goes for special characters and unique equipment. Additional "Codex Chapter" could even get a nod with a few unique special rules/wargear bits, and special characters.

 

Sure, the tome would cost $75 US or so, but it would be worth it not only due to all of the content, but also due to all of the marine armies being co-developed on a core platform. And that there would be less army books to go through in a game edition, meaning they might be able to do it. :angry:

[Xyon]

I would like to contribute an opinion again in this thread. I do agree with the main belief that if all chapters were in the marine codex, then we would not have to wait so many years for updates, and with a different aspect I do not think anyone else mentioned, with all the marines covered in one codex, it frees up more development resources to complete other races as well, instead of coming out with a new flavored marine codex every 1.5 years or so.

 

If they were all combined, I would think, in addition to the generic units of marines, that 2-3 chapter specific units could be included as well, not including special characters. And generic characters could have generic special rules, but be able to swap them for chapter specific rules, such as chapter tactics for blood angels, dark angels, space wolfs, etc.

 

Chapter tactics for BA would make assault squads troops, and maybe give them the descent of angels rule again.

Chapter tactics for space wolfs could give scouts power armor (blood claws), modify tac squads into grey wolf squads, etc.

Chapter tactics for dark angels could combine the terminator squads, give bikes/speeders the RW rules, etc.

 

You could save so much space doing it that way, so you dont have to include multiple entries for basically the same squads. Just one page per chapter, detailing how that chapters 'chapter tactics' rule modifies appropriate squads.

 

The genericness of the list though would let you have odd things like deathcompany in a black templar list, or thunderwolf cav with your imperial fists.

 

It could work, and it would make sense. But I still want my own codex for dark angels :P hehehe

[Brother Degas]

Ive been thinking about thisand it might make some sense but the very rough maths say not to do it.

 

If you have 1 book every 2 years thats maybe £75 and a 2 year model release. But if you have 1 main book at £35 plus 3 smaller ones at £20 thats £95 plus the more frequent model releases would prevent players losing intrest. Taking into account the testing development times etc its also probably not practical to have 1 combined book for the main chapters.

 

Also, I don't play so I don't want to pay £75 for a largely irrelevant book, £25 makes more sense to me and makes things more accessible to the new starter.

 

Plus we deserve out own codex because were the first legion :lol:

[Raibaru]

My opinion is that none of the books (at least before their most recent versions that came out in 5th) were divergent enough to warrant their own book from a rules perspective. Anything can happen from the background and they're all quite unique and divergent. But from the rules, a lot of what the SW, BA, BT, DA, GK all had could have been covered in a single Astartes book. It wasn't until the new SW, BA, and GK books that these armies really got enough to warrant their own book. And a lot of what they did get, most people feel shouldn't have been introduced to begin with because they either don't make sense for the setting, or simply are so far out there that they could have fleshed out other things to do the same.

 

So that said, if GW were to no longer update the other books then by all means remove the DA book along with them. But if GW is going to honestly keep updating the other books that aren't any more divergent from the rules than DA then DA deserve their own book as well.

 

I mean generally speaking couldn't all of the books be covered below:

 

A special HQ Wolf Lord that doesn't take up a FOC HQ slot that make a unit of tacticals gain true grit and the devestators to shoot multiple targets.

Tacticals could automatically be upgraded to have jet packs for +XX or terminator armor for +XXX points.

Bikers could automatically be made troops.

Scouts were moved to elite.

A special HQ that would make scouts count as troops, but they must join a unit of tactical marines and don't take a FOC slot.

 

Generally speaking did I not just outline everything the other books in 3rd and 4th offered?

[Tsuro]

A special HQ Wolf Lord that doesn't take up a FOC HQ slot that make a unit of tacticals gain true grit and the devestators to shoot multiple targets.

 

Generally speaking did I not just outline everything the other books in 3rd and 4th offered?

 

You missed out -

• Tactical marines loosing their heavy weapons.
  
• Assault marines having lower stats, but gaining berserk charge and having twice as many in a squad.
  
• Scouts having increased stats and operating behind enemy lines
  
• Devastators only having five guys.
  
• The entire army getting acute senses etc..
  

 

Not being so familiar with that codex, that's just off the top of my head. It's an awful lot of work for one wolf Lord to do. How would you appropriately cost such a model?

[Brother Immolator]

I used all three dexes out there(3rd/4th and space marines 5th)and i can tell you honestly that allthough our 4th sucked a lot it was far from viable.It forces you into making a scapel army.The most viable option is either raven/death or pure raven wing with vindicator assistance or pure deathwing(the last two are more viable than before now with the errata).

 

Lets face it our dex is not for those of light heart and strategic mind.You need to be a very good player and know both your army and the army you face(and i dont mean list tailoring).Granted we pay s***loads of points for what others take for almost nothing(the argument that out tactical squad almsot reaches the cost of a GK one is true)but its far from not been viable.I even trashed the templars a couple of times to the point of their player crapping his pants when he sees DA...

 

The biggest mistake of the Codex was that it meant to use us as playtesters for the 5th.I cant understand the mentality of that and i cant understand why we got only half the rules in it...I guess thats the reaon that the greenwing is not viable.

 

In conclusion:

Just ignore greenwing armies for the time beeing and until we get a new codex.We definently dont want to be in the marine dex,after all my interogator wipes himself after using the WC with the codex astartes.

 

Scoring no victories and accusing the dex is lame in the extreme.I know it because i did.Then i got a mentor of sorts who gave me tips on how to things with the DA and ive gonne quite the opossite way.Its not the best its not the greatest but i tell you what i prefere it to someothers who give you a 65% propability to win before a single shot is fired just because unit A(exterminator russes anyone?) or character B(I am looking at you memphy) is deployed.No our codex might be handicapping but it makes a victory all the sweeter.It calls you to make an army like cog mechanism,all must work together to produce a better sum that its parts.

If all codices were like ours we would see more strategic initiative out there and less powerhouse lists.

 

I stop here because that got too long.

[RayJ]

My opinion is that it is POSSIBLE for DAs to be tied into the next Space Marine codex and have everything work out. I would not prefer that option, but if executed well I can definitely support it. My hope is that we'll see a core codex that plays up the Deathwing, Ravenwing, Mortis Dreadnoughts, and Watchers, while still making the other units decent for support roles.

 

As for the comments on our current codex being so weak in 4th Edition, my experiences say differently. After I learned the proper synergies in the codex (and it's more than just a first turn thing) I went virtually undefeated with my Dual-Wing list. I had exactly 1 loss in tournament play, and it was due to me making mistakes, not the army being crap. Sure the greenwing was weak, but standard terminators were much better, and it was about 100 times easier to keep your bikes alive the whole game due to the rules for area terrain.