Can you infiltrate into reserve?

[Commander Sasha]

A thread on another site has suggested that after both sides have done their main deployment, and I have a unit with the infiltrate rule, I can, instead of infiltrating them, still put them into reserve.

I had always played it that I declared Deep strike, Outflank, Infiltrate or home edge reserve during INITIAL deployment, and then had to stick to it. If I go first, can I declare my Scouts will infiltrate, wait until my opponent has set up second, THEN decide how to deploy them?

 

Thanks.

[greatcrusade08]

IIRC the decision whether to infiltrate or outflank/reserve is done during deployment proper.. so you couldnt therefore change your mind during the 'infiltrating' stage

[Legatus]

I wanted to say the same, but then it looks like Infiltrators are placed during "deployment" and are simply placed after everything else has been set up. So it seems that technically it might be possible.

[thade]

Interesting. I've never heard of this before.

 

I'd have to drill into the rulebook (which is at home) to have a firmer stance on it, but off the cuff I like the idea. It adds a degree of tactics to the game. It certainly doesn't garner any superb advantage to the unit's controller either: infiltrating in almost all cases is more advantageous than waiting a random number of turns for the unit to slog in off of their table edge. Personally, I'd let it fly. Again I'd have to get down with the rulebook to be certain, but given Legatus's pause, I'm not sure what I'd find. (The guy has the rulebook strapped to his arm, I think. <3)

[Legatus]

It certainly doesn't garner any superb advantage to the unit's controller either: infiltrating in almost all cases is more advantageous than waiting a random number of turns for the unit to slog in off of their table edge.

Infiltrators can usually outflank, so waiting whether the opponent even deploys some juicy targets near the flanks before chosing whether to just infiltrate somewhere or whether to flank does have it's advantages.

[dswanick]

INFILTRATE*

Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed. If both sides have infiltrators, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, and then alternate deploying these units. Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table that ismore than 12" from any enemy unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw a line of sight to them.

 

DEPLOY FORCES

Sometimes battles occur between forces that have been in place fOr weeks, carefully preparing their positions. while at other times a skirmish between patrols escalates into a major engagement. With reserves pouring in from other sectors. You can either agree with your opponent which type of deployment to use for your armies, or roll d6 and consult the chart:

 

INFILTRATORS AND SCOUTS

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their 'infiltrate' special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the 'scouts' special rule (see page 76).

 

I'm going to say no, it can't be done this way. Per the infiltrate USR rules quoted above, the Infiltrate deployment is performed after the regular reployment phase is completed by both players. Per the Infiltrate and Scouts portion of the Deploy Forces rules the decision to use Infilitrate is made during the regular deployment step which is when the choice to place units in reserve is made. If you make the decision to deploy a unit by Infiltrate and end your deployment then it is too late to decide to place the unit in reserve when you are directed to deploy the unit using Infiltrate. TOo bad, because I could see some benefits to being able to do it...

[Commander Sasha]

I'm not convinced it's as cut-and-dried as that.

Infiltrators and scouts

...First...deploy their forces...Then deploy Infiltrators...finally move units with Scout rule...

To me, this suggests that all of the above is considered to be the deployment phase, including both armies. As such, it does not prevent a unit of infiltrators waiting for the opponent to deploy the majority of their units, before changing their mind and declaring reserve, particularly outflank.

 

I have my genestealers in mind, who have a potential 18" threat radius; on a 6' wide table, if I CAN choose to outflank during the infiltrate phase, I can threaten the WHOLE enemy backline, so it is quite a significant benefit.

 

Several senior players on TheTyranidHive endorse this benefit, I must admit it hadn't even occurred to me!

[Leonaides]

This:

Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed.

and:

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table that ismore than 12" from any enemy unit

nail it for me. If you deploy first, then you have to declare who's in reserve, and who is using Infiltrate. - So after the enemies deployment you cannot then must be using Infiltrate and then the rule says that they have to deploy on the table.

 

Even without the issue of if then is too late to deploy into reserve - the rule still says on the table.

 

You start chopping little bits out of the rules - I call shenanigans...

[dswanick]

Yeah, it would be like declaring a Tac squad is shooting with all of its Bolters and its Plasma gun, rolling to hit and wound with the bolters then deciding after seeing the results of the Bolter wounds that you don't want to risk the Over-heat by shooting the Plasma gun. There is a definite order to both sections of rules and you can't short circuit that order.

[greatcrusade08]

If you deploy first, then you have to declare who's in reserve, and who is using Infiltrate. - So after the enemies deployment you cannot then must be using Infiltrate and then the rule says that they have to deploy on the table.

 

Even without the issue of if then is too late to deploy into reserve - the rule still says on the table.

 

You start chopping little bits out of the rules - I call shenanigans...

 

im of the exact same mind as i explained above.. 40k is all about declarations, what unit is in what transport, what Ic is with what unit... and which units intend to outflank and which intend to infiltrate..

these decisions are made in the deployment phase, you cant then change your mind later on, its a little beardy

[Legatus]

The thing is, yu don't declare which unit is going to infiltrate. Infiltrators are simply deployed after all the other units, and that is that. It is not really described as an option. Which units attempt to outflank, on the other hand, is declared during the deployment, so you would then have to explain why "after all the other units" is not part of deployment anymore.

[thade]

The thing is, yu don't declare which unit is going to infiltrate. Infiltrators are simply deployed after all the other units, and that is that. It is not really described as an option. Which units attempt to outflank, on the other hand, is declared during the deployment, so you would then have to explain why "after all the other units" is not part of deployment anymore.

I hate to say it (because I still don't see this as a huge advantage) but this line of thinking is a bit dodgy.

 

When you choose to Infiltrate a unit, you have to state it aloud so your opponent is aware: stating it allowed is a declaration.

 

There's no entry in the rule book clarifying what a Declaration is, so we're left to rely on what it is definitively...which is stating clearly and aloud what your intentions are.

[dswanick]

The thing is, yu don't declare which unit is going to infiltrate. Infiltrators are simply deployed after all the other units, and that is that. It is not really described as an option. Which units attempt to outflank, on the other hand, is declared during the deployment, so you would then have to explain why "after all the other units" is not part of deployment anymore.

You may be right, you don't have to declare a unit is delpoying by Infilitrate. However both players have to deploy all units not being deployed by Infiltrate or placed in Reserve and you do have to declare what units are in Reserve at that time (BRB, Pg.94), leaving all remaining (undcelared) units as Infiltrators by default. Once you move on to the step where the Infiltrator are deployed you are beyond the stage where you can declare that unit to be in Reserve.

[greatcrusade08]

The thing is, yu don't declare which unit is going to infiltrate. Infiltrators are simply deployed after all the other units, and that is that. It is not really described as an option. Which units attempt to outflank, on the other hand, is declared during the deployment, so you would then have to explain why "after all the other units" is not part of deployment anymore.

 

there are a few issues with this line of reasoning, firstly although the rule does state infiltrators deploy last in a carte blanche rule.. it does go on to state if you deploy them in a transport the transport may not infiltrate....

but hang on, how can that work, it doesnt make sense...

 

outflanking is given to any infiltrating unit kept in reserve,, but hang on the rule only states they have to deploy last, it doesnt give options for reserves... (see where om going)

anyway back on point

pg 94 reserves

during deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to the opponent

i.e which have infiltrate and can outflank, what Ics are attached to what squad etc... and how those reserves will enter the game.. this cannot be changed

 

so if outflanking has to be declared during deployment, it cannot be done so after deployment when infiltrators are placed..

i know that the counter argument will say that deploying infiltrators is deployment.. but its really not..

pg 92 infiltrators and scouts

first the players deploy thier forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that choose to use thier infiltrate special rules) they then deploy thier infiltrators

 

this says two things, firstly that infiltrators have a choice of wehn they deploy by electing to use thier special rule, secondly that the regular deployment of forces is considered a seperate issue from infiltrators.

[Seahawk]

That's just it though; technically, Infiltrators don't get the choice, they ALWAYS infiltrate, whether you want them to or not. "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units have been deployed." That's it, no choice, no any other qualifier, etc. Unless, of course, the mission doesn't allow infiltrators.

 

You only have to 'declare' Reserves/Outflanking during deployment. Nothing else is specified, so one can either go with the general idea of "anytime during deployment" or a more specific idea of "during that unit's deployment."

 

Lastly, deployment doesn't end when all the regular troops go down. Deployment ends when the game begins, so this includes Infiltrators and Scouts (though Scouts are not part of this discussion).

 

So when is an Infiltrating unit's deployment? It's ALWAYS after all normal units have deployed. I, like many others, think that specifics are more weighty than general things, so I'd go for "during that unit's deployment." Since it's at the end, I have the choice to then either deploy or put into reserve at that point, and don't have to make the decision earlier.

[dswanick]

That's just it though; technically, Infiltrators don't get the choice, they ALWAYS infiltrate, whether you want them to or not. "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units have been deployed." That's it, no choice, no any other qualifier, etc. Unless, of course, the mission doesn't allow infiltrators.

 

You only have to 'declare' Reserves/Outflanking during deployment. Nothing else is specified, so one can either go with the general idea of "anytime during deployment" or a more specific idea of "during that unit's deployment."

 

Lastly, deployment doesn't end when all the regular troops go down. Deployment ends when the game begins, so this includes Infiltrators and Scouts (though Scouts are not part of this discussion).

 

So when is an Infiltrating unit's deployment? It's ALWAYS after all normal units have deployed. I, like many others, think that specifics are more weighty than general things, so I'd go for "during that unit's deployment." Since it's at the end, I have the choice to then either deploy or put into reserve at that point, and don't have to make the decision earlier.

BRB, Pg.76 - "INFILTRATORS AND SCOUTS

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their 'infiltrate' special rule).". Here is where you are given the choice to use or not use Infiltrate.

[Spacefrisian]

Speaking of infiltrate. I just noticed you cannot use this rule if youre in a transport (Chaos chosen) does that mean they cant use it to outflank either, if they start in that rhino.

[greatcrusade08]

That's just it though; technically, Infiltrators don't get the choice, they ALWAYS infiltrate, whether you want them to or not. "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units have been deployed." That's it, no choice, no any other qualifier, etc. Unless, of course, the mission doesn't allow infiltrators.

 

again its one of those vaccuum RAW quotes, but the issue is that it is contradicted in other places like the last quote i posted stating they can choose whether or not to use infiltrate rule.

most other USRs mention that they 'may' use it.. outflank, deepstrike etc..

people need to avoid sticking to blanket RAW, when there are more common sense interpretations..

 

GW writes bad rules, by sticking to RAW we can often use the wording of the rules to defeat the spirit of the rules..

 

on a more personal level, this interpretation would benefit me no end.. it would give me an edge over most clever oppoennts who deploy to avoid my alpha strikes or reserve thier own units.

it could be a huge difference in the way we play games

[greatcrusade08]

Speaking of infiltrate. I just noticed you cannot use this rule if youre in a transport (Chaos chosen) does that mean they cant use it to outflank either, if they start in that rhino.

 

again this is a nonsensicle rule.. all other units must be deployed or outflanked before infiltrators can be placed.. there is no possible way for an infiltrating unit to deploy within a vehicle and then affect that vehciles deployment or rules..

unless the wordin is incorrect and the infiltrators dont HAVE to deploy last and can instead CHOOSE to deploy last

 

to clarify, it is the infiltrate rule that allows a unit to outflank, if infiltrate doesnt confer onto the vehicle then it cannot therefore confer outflank

[thade]

That's just it though; technically, Infiltrators don't get the choice, they ALWAYS infiltrate, whether you want them to or not. "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units have been deployed." That's it, no choice, no any other qualifier, etc. Unless, of course, the mission doesn't allow infiltrators.

 

Not according to this:

 

DEPLOY FORCES

Sometimes battles occur between forces that have been in place fOr weeks, carefully preparing their positions. while at other times a skirmish between patrols escalates into a major engagement. With reserves pouring in from other sectors. You can either agree with your opponent which type of deployment to use for your armies, or roll d6 and consult the chart:

 

INFILTRATORS AND SCOUTS

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their 'infiltrate' special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the 'scouts' special rule (see page 76).

 

It wouldn't be conditional on whether they chose to use their infiltrate rule if it wasn't a choice to begin with.

[Legatus]

Once you move on to the step where the Infiltrator are deployed you are beyond the stage where you can declare that unit to be in Reserve.

Where is it specified thatthe "deployment" ends after all non-infiltrating units have been set up? Why wouldn't the deployment of Infiltrators count as part of the deployment, albeit a step that is separate from placing "normal" units?

 

 

there are a few issues with this line of reasoning, firstly although the rule does state infiltrators deploy last in a carte blanche rule.. it does go on to state if you deploy them in a transport the transport may not infiltrate....

but hang on, how can that work, it doesnt make sense...

Well, since transports cannot infiltrate, they cannot be placed "after all the other units" and have to be placed with the rest. So if you want to deploy an infiltrating unit inside the transport, you place them earlier with the rest of the force. Or maybe you place them later, inside the already placed transport, but cannot do so closer to the enemy, since teh transport had to set up in your deployment zone.

 

 

so if outflanking has to be declared during deployment, it cannot be done so after deployment when infiltrators are placed.

But why isn't placing infiltrators part of deployment?

 

 

first the players deploy thier forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that choose to use thier infiltrate special rules) they then deploy thier infiltrators

That doesn't explain that "deploying their forces is deployment, and deploying infiltrators is not deployment". It merely explains that regular units are deployed first, then infiltrators are deployed, then scout moves are made. Why couldn't this all be part of the "deployment phase"? Since it all serves to set up the forces before the actual game starts.

 

 

That is why I didn't think the issue was as clear cut, and was leaning into the other direction. Reserves are determined during "deployment", but the placement of the regular forces is not defined as "deployment" while setting up infiltrators happens "after deployment". Instead, I would be inclined to say that in lieu of any clear distinction, setting up infiltrators is still part of "deployment", albeit specifically separated from placing all the other, regular units. There is nothing to say that "deployment" could not have its own sequence of steps.

Obviously it would have been good if the rules were more clear than this, but so far I would say the rules indicate that placing infiltrators is part of "deployment" so the player can still determine that such a unit is being held in reserves.

 

"In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their 'Infiltrate' special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the 'scouts' special rule (see page 76)."

BRB, p. 92, "Deploy Forces", "Infiltrators and Scouts"

 

That does say that the sequence (deploy forces, deploy infiltrators, move scouts) is part of the "deployment" types. The "three types of deployment" refered to are 'Pitched Battle', 'Spearhead' and 'Dawn of War'. And in all of them, teh sequence is to first deploy forces, then deploy infiltrators, and then move scouts.

[greatcrusade08]

there are a few issues with this line of reasoning, firstly although the rule does state infiltrators deploy last in a carte blanche rule.. it does go on to state if you deploy them in a transport the transport may not infiltrate....

but hang on, how can that work, it doesnt make sense...

Well, since transports cannot infiltrate, they cannot be placed "after all the other units" and have to be placed with the rest. So if you want to deploy an infiltrating unit inside the transport, you place them earlier with the rest of the force. Or maybe you place them later, inside the already placed transport, but cannot do so closer to the enemy, since teh transport had to set up in your deployment zone.

 

but you just argued that infiltrators HAD to deploy last... which is it?

 

 

so if outflanking has to be declared during deployment, it cannot be done so after deployment when infiltrators are placed.

But why isn't placing infiltrators part of deployment?

 

first the players deploy thier forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that choose to use thier infiltrate special rules) they then deploy thier infiltrators

That doesn't explain that "deploying their forces is deployment, and deploying infiltrators is not deployment". It merely explains that regular units are deployed first, then infiltrators are deployed, then scout moves are made. Why couldn't this all be part of the "deployment phase"? Since it all serves to set up the forces before the actual game starts.

 

the quote clearly gives us a 'timeline' on how to order the seperate issue of deployment and declarations etc.. your forces deploy except those who are left in reserve or those who choose to infiltrate.

since the rules state we must declare all aspects of our reserves, then by pure logic we must have made this declaration if we are to know what units are held in reserve and what are choosing to infiltrate.. you cant just leave several units to theside and when asked what they are doing say i havent decided yet".. if we are to know what units are considered reserves then we must have made a declaration.. no?

 

edit: furthermore, becuase we now know that infiltrating is not compulsary it could be argued that you would have to declare whether they then 'choose' to use thier USr or not.. essentially declaring which units are infiltrating long before you get to the point of placing them on the table..

i can live with your definition of the deployment phase and can agree to the fact that infiltrators is seen as deployment (without any extra info supporting or rebuking the argument).. but it doesnt change when the 'declarations are made'

 

deployment

step one: deploy forces, declare which units are in reserve (and specifics of outflank etc) and also declare which units are choosing to infiltrate

step two: deploy infiltrators

step three: scout moves

[Seahawk]

Good points dswanick; didn't catch that before :P.

 

Still, the entirety of the deployment "phase" ends when the first turn begins, as specified in the missions. And as Reserves says: "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy some units...and...leave them in reserve. Outflank says "During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

 

All of this stuff regarding reserves is declared "during deployment," which lasts right up to the first turn, so this can be declared at any time in between. Now, Reserves specifies it as being "when deploying their army..." which could then be along the lines of their units' deployment. Regular units deploy first, and must specify their intentions during that point. Infiltrators (when you choose to do so, of course ;)) must specify their intent when they deploy, which is after other units deploy.

[greatcrusade08]

Still, the entirety of the deployment "phase" ends when the first turn begins, as specified in the missions. And as Reserves says: "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy some units...and...leave them in reserve. Outflank says "During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

 

All of this stuff regarding reserves is declared "during deployment," which lasts right up to the first turn, so this can be declared at any time in between. Now, Reserves specifies it as being "when deploying their army..." which could then be along the lines of their units' deployment. Regular units deploy first, and must specify their intentions during that point. Infiltrators (when you choose to do so, of course :P) must specify their intent when they deploy, which is after other units deploy.

 

im not quite sure what side your arguing for there tbh..

if reserves are declared during regular deloyment, then you cant infact say your infiltrators can outflank during the deployment of infiltrators stage

 

remember that you must first be reserved before your infiltrate rule grants you the ability to outflank.. it is during the point at which you declare reserves that you mention what units have ouflank ect..

pg 94 reserves

[Seahawk]

No, regular deployment is only what regular troops do.

 

"When deploying their army..." includes all aspects, including Infiltrating, as you are still deploying your army at that point, just a couple bits are not at the same time as the rest of the force. Regardless, when you choose to Infiltrate something, that means it deploys last. You choose reserves when deploying.