Can you infiltrate into reserve?

[dswanick]

Good points dswanick; didn't catch that before ;).

 

Still, the entirety of the deployment "phase" ends when the first turn begins, as specified in the missions. And as Reserves says: "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy some units...and...leave them in reserve. Outflank says "During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

 

All of this stuff regarding reserves is declared "during deployment," which lasts right up to the first turn, so this can be declared at any time in between. Now, Reserves specifies it as being "when deploying their army..." which could then be along the lines of their units' deployment. Regular units deploy first, and must specify their intentions during that point. Infiltrators (when you choose to do so, of course ;)) must specify their intent when they deploy, which is after other units deploy.

And rolling to hit, to wound, making armor saves, and removing casualties are all part of the Shooting Phase. :P But the steps are taken in order, and you can't backtrack once you've moved on from one step to an earlier step.

The Deployment phase clearly outlines an order of Deploying

1> deploy all units not declared to be in reserve or chosen to use infiltrate, <-- this is where you declare what units are in reserve.

2> allow you opponent to do the same if he hasn't already,

3> roll to determine who deploys infiltrators, each player deploys all units chosen to use their infiltrate special rule. <-- at this point it's too late to declare a unit is in reserve.

[greatcrusade08]

page 92 says that players deploy thier forces except any unit left in reserve and any unit wishing to use thier infiltrate special rule..

the infiltrate special rule is a deployment one only, it doesnt allow you to magically outflank a unit... a unit must already be in reserve for the infiltrate rule to grant outflank.

 

so at the point at which your forces are deployed, you would have to have declared which units are held in reserve and which are going to deploy as infiltrators.. this happens BEFORE infiltrators are deployed

[Legatus]

first the players deploy thier forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that choose to use thier infiltrate special rules) they then deploy their infiltrators

That statement seems to indeed explain that units must "chose" to use the infiltration deployment, and with that in mind I would tend to say that they couldn't then change their minds and be kept in reserve instead. Though I find it unfortunate that this is explained in a parenthesis sentence on page 92 and not in the Infiltration rules on page 75.

[greatcrusade08]

Though I find it unfortunate that this is explained in a parenthesis sentence on page 92 and not in the Infiltration rules on page 75.

 

i agree, its worded and orgainsed very poorly.. its definately not the works of a son of guilliman

[dswanick]

I'll agree with that sentiment. On a side note : I almost get the feeling that GC08 has me on "ignore". He often seems to post the same thing I'm saying, just after I do, without any ackowledgement that I just posted the same response... :P

[greatcrusade08]

I'll agree with that sentiment. On a side note : I almost get the feeling that GC08 has me on "ignore". He often seems to post the same thing I'm saying, just after I do, without any ackowledgement that I just posted the same response... ;)

 

:P its that i take ages to post and you ninja me.. and then i respond to arguments made in the time ive taken to post.. it gets very confusing

 

i do have a full explanation at hand to fully argue why infiltrators cannot reserve in the infiltrators deployment phase.. im going to post it all up so everyone can understand it better

please forgive the inevitable double post

[greatcrusade08]

pg 92 BRB

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. first the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that they chose to use thier 'infiltrate' special rule). They then deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the scouts special rule (see page 76)

 

this gives us a set order for when things happen

normal units are deployed except for units that are in reserve and units that are infiltrating.

after this infiltrators are deployed

 

pg 94 BRB

when deploying thier army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve. Units in reserve will become available in later turns of the game.

During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to the opponent.

<SNIP>

If units in reserve have the 'deep strike', 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rule, the player mut declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their secific rules to deep strike/outflank or whether they are going to enter from his own table edge when they become available (see arriving from reserve). This decision may not be changed later.

 

at the point at which you deploy your regular forces you must declare which units are in reserve (see first quote pg92), this declaration MUST cover any units that have infiltrate ability, and you MUST specify whether they will outflank.. since reserves have to be declared at the time you deploy your regular forces you cannot then declare reserves at a later point.

 

the counter argument is that infiltrators are deployed last and as such may opt to reserve at this point, however this isnt accurate.

i draw your attention back to the riginal quote, more specifically this part

They then deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75)

 

Infiltrators arent 'deployed' as normal, they deploy using a specific and special set of deployment rules/instructions.. the ability to reserve is not amongst thier rules so at the point of deploying infiltrators you are no longer allowed to reserve

[CaptinLoken]

I understand this is situational ... slightly off topic...but in reserve... could you just clearly state they are in reserve and possible change up Deep strike to a possible outflank move? I"m think LSS in this more direct case.

 

I'm in the favor of Infiltrators are a type of reserve but once the opponent tells what he is reserving (if you went first) ... you shouldn't be able to tactically replay you reserves from infiltrate to outflank... I can't remember where I read ... when you declare it in reserve do you have to specify how it is arriving as well?

[greatcrusade08]

I understand this is situational ... slightly off topic...but in reserve... could you just clearly state they are in reserve and possible change up Deep strike to a possible outflank move? I"m think LSS in this more direct case.

 

I'm in the favor of Infiltrators are a type of reserve but once the opponent tells what he is reserving (if you went first) ... you shouldn't be able to tactically replay you reserves from infiltrate to outflank... I can't remember where I read ... when you declare it in reserve do you have to specify how it is arriving as well?

 

If units in reserve have the 'deep strike', 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rule, the player mut declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their secific rules to deep strike/outflank or whether they are going to enter from his own table edge when they become available (see arriving from reserve). This decision may not be changed later.

[CaptinLoken]

If that is the wording in the rule book (don't have it on me..) then defiantly you shouldn't be able to shift any mode at any time..

[Legatus]

at the point at which you deploy your regular forces you must declare which units are in reserve (see first quote pg92), this declaration MUST cover any units that have infiltrate ability, and you MUST specify whether they will outflank.. since reserves have to be declared at the time you deploy your regular forces you cannot then declare reserves at a later point.

I still don't think that the rules explain that units could not be held back and in reserve at any later point during deployment. I merely agree that the description of how "units that chose to use their infiltrate special rule" are set up later explains that such units are thereby declared to be deployed as infiltrators.

 

So while it is, in theory, possible to keep units back in reserve at a later point during deployment, infiltrating units, due to that particular statement, are declared to be placed as infiltrators during the initial units' deployment.

[greatcrusade08]

the deployment oif infiltrators must follow the rules set out on pg 75.. its not 'normal' deployment and as such doesnt allow for the units to be placed in reserve.

 

also remember the choice or reserving 'replaces' the normal rules for deploying your forces.. if you want to reserve a predator, you would have to declare so at the time you would normally deploy it.

as infiltrators cannot reserve at the time of thier infiltrate deployment, they could only do so if they chose to deploy normally.. this is during the 'normal' deployment too..

 

therfore reserves can only be declared during the time you deploy the bulk of your forces

[Grey Mage]

*blinks*

 

Im sorry, but since when do you deploy a unit into reserves?

 

Simple- you dont. You do however, deploy infiltrators after everyone else.

 

Since you dont deploy into reserves- instead you deploy from reserves- you cannot deploy your infiltrators there either.

[nurglez]

Mr sasha, if you want to do that vs me. I have no issue. However, it just doesnt feel right to me. But all the other people have worded it better then I could heh.

[dizzy-xc]

*blinks*

 

Im sorry, but since when do you deploy a unit into reserves?

 

Simple- you dont. You do however, deploy infiltrators after everyone else.

 

Since you dont deploy into reserves- instead you deploy from reserves- you cannot deploy your infiltrators there either.

 

 

So your argument is based off of syntax and grammatical analysis? If we used that as a basis everytime we had an argument we'd be in pretty deep trouble with the way GW does their RAW.

 

I'm just gonna say bonus to the strategic element and allowinfiltrate to choose.

[Commander Sasha]

Mr sasha, if you want to do that vs me. I have no issue. However, it just doesnt feel right to me. But all the other people have worded it better then I could heh.

That's Commander Sasha!

 

Is there a word for the special sort of pride you feel at being the progenitor of a really good debate?

 

As a "I may be wrong" sort of player, I would generally take the safe road of not reserving at the infiltrating stage, if only because I view the randomness of the outflanking roll to represent the fact that your general told you to creep through the bushes on the left, but unfortunately, the battle ended up happening on the right. Once you've committed to spending the night before the battle hiding in a bush, you can't magically jink to the edge of the battlefield.

 

I'm off to thetyranidhive to post a link to this thread to see what happens... :devil:

[Something Wycked]

So your argument is based off of syntax and grammatical analysis? If we used that as a basis everytime we had an argument we'd be in pretty deep trouble with the way GW does their RAW.

 

I'm just gonna say bonus to the strategic element and allowinfiltrate to choose.

Syntax is all we have when it comes to reading RAW.

 

"Deploy" in the 40k sense always refers to models appearing on the tabletop. You deploy out of a vehicle onto the table, you deploy via Deep Strike onto the table, you deploy on your board edge from reserves or a different board edge from Outflanking... All onto the table. "Reserves" and "Outflanking" are not places on the table to which you can deploy, especially after declaring that the unit is Infiltrating.

 

The rules, as understood by myself and everyone I know, are that when it comes your turn to deploy, you deploy all non-reserved, non-infiltrating units on the table. Everything that is left off the table is declared to be infiltrating, deep striking, or simply being held in reserve at that point to enter from your board edge. It cannot change from one type to another; that is "takesie-backsies" after you see that a move you made on the chessboard isn't a good one.

[Grey Mage]

*blinks*

 

Im sorry, but since when do you deploy a unit into reserves?

 

Simple- you dont. You do however, deploy infiltrators after everyone else.

 

Since you dont deploy into reserves- instead you deploy from reserves- you cannot deploy your infiltrators there either.

 

 

So your argument is based off of syntax and grammatical analysis? If we used that as a basis everytime we had an argument we'd be in pretty deep trouble with the way GW does their RAW.

 

I'm just gonna say bonus to the strategic element and allowinfiltrate to choose.

I use the same thing to interpret what youve written into your post. If the english language is cut out as a way of intepreting GW were far beyond deep trouble.

 

This isnt the arcane end of the english language either- this is pretty basic.

[thade]

*blinks*

 

Im sorry, but since when do you deploy a unit into reserves?

 

Simple- you dont. You do however, deploy infiltrators after everyone else.

 

Since you dont deploy into reserves- instead you deploy from reserves- you cannot deploy your infiltrators there either.

^This. It's true; putting a unit into Reserves is effectively holding back on deploying it. :devil:

[dizzy-xc]

Umm, so what is the consensus here?

[greatcrusade08]

*blinks*

 

Im sorry, but since when do you deploy a unit into reserves?

 

Simple- you dont. You do however, deploy infiltrators after everyone else.

 

Since you dont deploy into reserves- instead you deploy from reserves- you cannot deploy your infiltrators there either.

^This. It's true; putting a unit into Reserves is effectively holding back on deploying it. :(

 

yes its true you dont deploy into reserve, but think of it in actual playability terms.. if you would normally have to deploy a unit, but instead choose to leave it in reserve.. when do you declare to your opponent?

simple at the point when you should have deployed them.. otherwise your cheating..

 

the point ive been making is that deplying infiltrators isnt 'deploying as we know it' it is a special set of deployment rules as marked out on page 75 of the BRB.. deploying infiltrators doesnt allow them to reserve.. so the only point at which you can decalre reserves is when you deploy your army.. as stated by RAW in the rules

 

you cant argue that deploying infiltrators is part of deploying your army, as they use seperate and unique rules for doing so..

 

the wording of the next rule shows that you have to declare both reserves and infiltrators

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. first the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that they chose to use thier 'infiltrate' special rule). They then deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the scouts special rule (see page 76)

 

the 'sequence' shows that you deploy your army except for any unit held in reserve and any unit choosing to infiltrate..

how do you know which unit is in reserve? oh thats right you must have declared..

the argument you chaps are making is that you can leave both sets of units aside and not declare which is which.. however given that infiltrators cannot reserve at the point at which they choose to infiltrate (special set of deployment rules) your effectively cheating.

the rules quite clearly state you have to declare every aspect of reserves, and since you have to show which units are being kept aside at the point of basic deployment, then the declaration mst be made at this point.

 

i fully understand the opposing view that you keep quiet about which unit is in reserve ad which unit is electing to infiltrate, but this clearly goes against RAW which says "units that are in reserve" and "units that choose to infiltrate".. if it were meant to be vague it would state "all other units"

at the point of basic deployment how do you know whcih units are in reserve?

how do you know which units choose to infiltrate? since you have to declare reserves, one could argue that any unit with the infiltrate rule elects to use it if they choose not to deploy at basic deployment..

the crux of the issue is that any unit that has chosen to infiltrate must be declared during basic deployment othewise they arent covered by the rule abouve statsing they are a unit that have chose to use thier USR

since reserves also have to be declared and cannot be changed, there is no way to leave things vague to get away with this cheesiness

 

edit: as a change of pace, why dont the guys who think its possible show me the quotes which back up thier arguments?

[Commander Sasha]

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Tactics&action=display&thread=34269

Coredump's reply #3 near the end of the first page sums up his arguments well.

 

To counter GC08's summary, which I think is the best worded, I don't see for certain a point at which Infiltrator's deployment stops being 'normal deployment", as there is no point that said term is actually defined; the Reserve rule describes itself as referring to deployment in general, the Infiltrate rule gives a condition of deployment for those units.

[greatcrusade08]

the whole argument is based off 'vagueness'.. lets be vague in order to garner a bonus and essentially cheat

 

you have to declare reserves at the point at which you deploy your army, not after, during.. that wording is clear..

when do you deploy your army, well the rules use the word forces, but it shows that its done as basic deployment.

 

again how do we know what units are in reserve and what units have chose to use thier infiltrate USR to deploy as infiltrators?

no-one has answered that

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. first the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that they chose to use thier 'infiltrate' special rule). They then deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the scouts special rule (see page 76)

 

edit @ coredump

The rules says any unit can be placed in reserve instead of being deployed. There is no rule that denys that ability to units that are deploying 'last' via infiltrate.

This is wrong, the deployment rules for infiltrators are unique, the follow the rules as laid out on pg75, this doesnt allow for them to reserve.. you cant choose to infiltrate and then use thier infiltrate deployment in order to reserve

[Leonaides]

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Tactics&action=display&thread=34269

Coredump's reply #3 near the end of the first page sums up his arguments well.

 

To counter GC08's summary, which I think is the best worded, I don't see for certain a point at which Infiltrator's deployment stops being 'normal deployment", as there is no point that said term is actually defined; the Reserve rule describes itself as referring to deployment in general, the Infiltrate rule gives a condition of deployment for those units.

And to counter your arguement Infiltrate specifies that you HAVE to deploy on the table (see page 1). Since you cannot be in reserve and on the table, you cannot deploy in reserve.

[Grey Mage]

*blinks*

 

Im sorry, but since when do you deploy a unit into reserves?

 

Simple- you dont. You do however, deploy infiltrators after everyone else.

 

Since you dont deploy into reserves- instead you deploy from reserves- you cannot deploy your infiltrators there either.

^This. It's true; putting a unit into Reserves is effectively holding back on deploying it. ;)

 

yes its true you dont deploy into reserve, but think of it in actual playability terms.. if you would normally have to deploy a unit, but instead choose to leave it in reserve.. when do you declare to your opponent?

simple at the point when you should have deployed them.. otherwise your cheating..

 

the point ive been making is that deplying infiltrators isnt 'deploying as we know it' it is a special set of deployment rules as marked out on page 75 of the BRB.. deploying infiltrators doesnt allow them to reserve.. so the only point at which you can decalre reserves is when you deploy your army.. as stated by RAW in the rules

 

you cant argue that deploying infiltrators is part of deploying your army, as they use seperate and unique rules for doing so..

GC08.... Im confused as to what you are saying.

 

Are you attempting to say that declaring your reserves instead of deploying them is cheating? When the rules dont allow for this?

 

Its not a matter of playability terms, its a matter of the games terms.