Can you infiltrate into reserve?

[greatcrusade08]

GC08.... Im confused as to what you are saying.

 

Are you attempting to say that declaring your reserves instead of deploying them is cheating? When the rules dont allow for this?

 

Its not a matter of playability terms, its a matter of the games terms.

 

what im saying is that not declaring your reserves at the correct time is cheating.. essentially what the guys are arguing is that you leave which units are in reserve and which units are infiltrating 'vague'.. by not declaring which is which you can choose to go either way depending on how your opponent chooses to deploy..

this is not how it works.

given that it states that you deploy all forces except those in reserve and those units who choose to infiltrate, then by logic these choices must have been made..

according to the rules of reserves you must fully declare all aspects of reserves.. and since the choice of whether to infiltrate or not must have been made during regular deployment too.. theres no reason not to declare that either (especially since infiltrators dont have the option to reserve once they 'choose' to infiltrate)

 

as i said people are being purposely vague in order to gain benefit.. it clearly states in reserves that decisions cannot be changed at a later point

if you have to declare reserves at the time of regular army deployment, then you couldnt add units at a later point..

[Grey Mage]

I never claimed that though.

 

All I said was, quite simply, you dont deploy into reserves. Since you deploy infiltrators- either your using their rule, wich wont allow them to be placed in reserves, or your not in wich case its not a problem anyways.

[greatcrusade08]

I never claimed that though.

 

All I said was, quite simply, you dont deploy into reserves. Since you deploy infiltrators- either your using their rule, wich wont allow them to be placed in reserves, or your not in wich case its not a problem anyways.

 

oh? in that case we were arguing the same point... bit of blue on blue going on there mea culpa :P

 

i think what people dont understand is this:

infiltrators during regular deployment must make the choice of whether or not to use thier infiltrate USR.. if they choose to use this rule, then it allows them to deploy on the table last using the rules listed on page 75.. this doesnt allow them to reserve.

so the only way to enable them to reserve is to choose NOT to use the infiltrate USR and choose instead to reserve them in place of thier standard deployment.

 

this decision must be made in the regular deployment phase as is the same with all units that dont have the infiltrate rule.

by this very clear logic and RAW, all reserves must be declared during regular deployment

[greatcrusade08]

does he lack of responses mean people agree with my assertions?

[thade]

does he lack of responses mean people agree with my assertions?

Haha, yes. The silence is nobody disagreeing with you. <3

[Coredump]

Well, not exactly. It means some of us were gone for the weekend...

 

GC, I see your points, but I feel you are adding rules that do not explicitly exist, and then using them to support your argument.

 

 

Lets start off with some premises, and see if we can agree on those.

 

Deployment phase: This lasts from the beginning of deployment, until the beginning of the first turn.

Specific rules take precedence over general rules. There may be debate as to which rules are specific and which are general, but I think we can agree on the underlying principle.

 

 

 

 

Now lets go through the timeline. I am going first, and we are using Spearhead.

The rules on p.93 say I pick a long edge, then deploy my army in a quarter of the table.

My stealers, however, have the Infiltrate USR. and that says

Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed.

 

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table that is...

 

So, using the Infiltrate USR means that unit is deployed last, and has more freedom of where it *may* be deployed.

 

So I elect to use my Infiltrate USR, and will deploy that stealer unit last.

 

Then you deploy.

 

Now, when it is time to deploy my stealers... looking at the Reserves rules we find:

 

When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and

instead leave them in reserve.

 

Well, I *am* still deploying my army, (the infiltrate rule even states that the stealers are deploying) so the Reserves rule allows me to choose to not deploy one or more units, and put them in reserves.

 

There is nothing in the Infiltrate rule that demands the unit be put on the board.

There is nothing in the Reserves rule that disallows it being used on units that are 'deployed last'.

 

 

 

Through your arguments, I have seen you discuss 'Deployment Proper", but no such phase exists in the rules.

You have stated how the Infiltrate rules don't give allowances for going into reserves. But of course not, the reserve rules cover the reserve rules. Just like the scout rule doesn't talk about embarking or disembarking... but it can still be done.

You tried to use the 'explain the organization' rule to apply to Infiltraters, but it clearly only applies to units once put into reserves.

You claim that infiltrators are placed 'after deployment', though the rules clearly show that deployment lasts until the beginning of the first turn.

You correctly state that we must declare which units are in reserves, but then create an unstated restriction about *when* that must take place. (The only actual rule is 'During deployment')

You talk about declaring during 'regular deployment', even though that doesn't actually exist in the rules.

 

And that's just from the first page; I could keep going, but the point is you keep claiming things that don't actually exist in the rules.

 

 

The only thing that is in the rules, is a single parenthetical statement on p. 92 that mentions being in reserve, and then the absence of such a mention a phrase later when talking about deploying reserves. But that isn't a rule, that is an absence of a parenthetical statement.... hardly something to hang an entire assertion on.

 

And the *actual*, specific, deployment rules, (pitched battle, spearhead, DoW) only mention deploying you army, and then deploying infiltrators. *No* mention of reserves at all....

 

 

So, once again, the rules state that 'using infiltrate' means you deploy last, and the rules state that you can Reserve intead of deploying.... so that is what the stealers are doing. Unless you can supply a rule that specifically disallows following those rules.....

[greatcrusade08]

coredump, your correct in that ive made several unfounded statements in trying to word my arguments, ill give you that..

 

but you still avoid the main issue.. once you elect to use your infiltrate USR on the stealers, it DOES prevent them from then reserving.

they do not deploy as normal which would allow them to reserve as per standard rules.. they deploy accoerdiing to the rules set out on page 75.

this is pure RAW, specific over general

 

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. first the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that they chose to use thier 'infiltrate' special rule). They then deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75),

 

please go back to your BRB and read page 75, show me where it says they may elect to reserve instead of deploying as infiltrators.. we all agree (and i have done) that infiltration is covered within the deployment phase, but its not standard deployment.. its governed by its own set of rules..

 

what im saying is that people arguing your point, are blatantly using the 'at any point during deployment' argument to create a 'big middle' and open the system to abuse..

if this were a non infiltrating unit, could you wait until after infiltrators have deployed before claiming they are in reserve?.. NO, becuase the choice is made at the time they would normally deploy, the mere fact your not placing them on the table means they MUST be in reserve.

as with infiltrators the only way to place them in reserve is to choose NOT to use thier infiltrate USR, which means they would HAVE to be placed during normal deployment and it is at this point that they would have to be placed in reserve.

 

the crux is this.. infiltrate is a USR and has its own seperate set of rules for deployment... its specific over the more general rules allowing you to reserve instead of deploying..

 

some more points

You talk about declaring during 'regular deployment', even though that doesn't actually exist in the rules

does it not, we have army deployment, and infiltrators deployment.. only units with infiltrate USR can deploy as infiltrtors.. therefore everything else HAS to be deployed within the army deployment phase.. i think your cutting hairs waaay too thin

 

And the *actual*, specific, deployment rules, (pitched battle, spearhead, DoW) only mention deploying you army, and then deploying infiltrators. *No* mention of reserves at all....

heres some useful quotes for you:

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. first the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that they chose to use thier 'infiltrate' special rule)

If units in reserve have the 'deep strike', 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rule, the player mut declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their specific rules to deep strike/outflank or whether they are going to enter from his own table edge when they become available (see arriving from reserve). This decision may not be changed later.

when deploying thier army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve.

[Something Wycked]

I've got to chime in supporting GC08 at this point.

 

Now lets go through the timeline. I am going first, and we are using Spearhead.

The rules on p.93 say I pick a long edge, then deploy my army in a quarter of the table.

My stealers, however, have the Infiltrate USR. and that says

Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed.

 

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table that is...

 

So, using the Infiltrate USR means that unit is deployed last, and has more freedom of where it *may* be deployed.

 

So I elect to use my Infiltrate USR, and will deploy that stealer unit last.

Everything you've said up to this point is correct. I've added my own emphasis for later use.

 

Then you deploy.

 

Now, when it is time to deploy my stealers... looking at the Reserves rules we find:

 

When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and

instead leave them in reserve.

 

Well, I *am* still deploying my army, (the infiltrate rule even states that the stealers are deploying) so the Reserves rule allows me to choose to not deploy one or more units, and put them in reserves.

 

There is nothing in the Infiltrate rule that demands the unit be put on the board.

There is nothing in the Reserves rule that disallows it being used on units that are 'deployed last'.

This is where you go wrong. While you are correct in that there is nothing in the Reserves rule that prevents Infiltrators from being Reserved, there is something in the Infiltrate rule that prevents you from Reserving the unit. I call your attention to the rule you quoted and I emphasized:

 

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table

 

And this is really all that needs to be said. However, I'll say some more for clarity.

 

When you deploy your army, that is, in the same span of time that you place units on the table, you must declare how every unit in your army will be deployed. There are 3 options here:

 

1.) The unit is deployed on the table as normal.

2.) The unit will use the Infiltrate USR.

3.) The unit will be held in Reserve:

.....a.) Deep Strike

.....b.) Outflank

.....c.) Normal Reserves

 

When you declare all of these things, they do not allow you to change them at some later point in the Deployment phase.

 

In this particular case,

 

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table

and may NOT change their deployment type to Reserves instead of Infiltration.

 

So, once again, the rules state that 'using infiltrate' means you deploy last, and the rules state that you can Reserve intead of deploying.... so that is what the stealers are doing. Unless you can supply a rule that specifically disallows following those rules.....

"Using infiltrate" ALSO means deploying on the table, not Reserving.

[greatcrusade08]

the crux of the counter argument is that certain rules are loosely worded.. this "during army deployment units may be placed in reserve" argument is literally interpreted to mean any point during deployment since infiltrators are part of your army too..

 

the fact is some rules purely by the way they work (the mechanic of the rules if you will) make certain things clear.

we know that infiltrators cannot reserve, therefore the only units that can reserve are those placed during army deployment (deploying your "forces" as described on pg 92)

this to me says that army deployment IS the deployment of all units without infiltrate USR.. its not written explicitly, but its the only way the rule can work

[Something Wycked]

the crux of the counter argument is that certain rules are loosely worded.. this "during army deployment units may be placed in reserve" argument is literally interpreted to mean any point during deployment since infiltrators are part of your army too..

Yeah, I hear you GC08, but even if the book is poorly worded, there is a concrete, clearly written rule that prevents this "during deployment may be placed in reserve", and that's the Infiltrate rule itself. It states that units deploying via the Infiltrate USR MUST be deployed on the table. They may NOT deploy off the table, into reserve.

 

Easy peasy, despite what the 'Nids want :)

[thade]

While you are correct in that there is nothing in the Reserves rule that prevents Infiltrators from being Reserved, there is something in the Infiltrate rule that prevents you from Reserving the unit. I call your attention to the rule you quoted and I emphasized:

 

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table

 

And this is really all that needs to be said.

Epic. Win.

 

Really. Them's the brakes.

[greatcrusade08]

exactly, we can easily define army deployment as the deployment of all units not using thier infiltrate USR.. i havbe termed it basic deployment during my arguments..

 

what irks me about the counter argument is the purposeful 'vagueness'.. they believe that they can have thier units with infiltrate USR off to the side and not declare whether they are reserving or infiltrating until it comes to deploying the infiltrators..

the rules clearly state choices and declarations must be made during army/basic deployment.. here:

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. first the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that they chose to use thier 'infiltrate' special rule). They then deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75),

 

so in sequence you deploy your forces.. army deployment if you will, but leave off any units that are in reserve.. i.e youve chosen to keep them in reserve and must declare them as such (the reserves rule is very clear on declarations)

however it also states that units musy 'choose' to use thier infiltrate ability in order to deploy last.. again its a choice... do people think this means 'make the choice in your head'?

if you have to make a choice, declare it, otherwise you could change your mind later on and essentially cheat.

 

it is after these choices are made that your opponent deploys and then you can deploy infiltrators and do scout moves.. its clear that the choices precede the infiltrators deployment 'phase'

 

and thusly your honour i state my case

[Commander Sasha]

After good arguments from both sides, I believe I am personally still on the 'for' side, and my best gaming buddy Nurglez has stated above that he has no problem with it, so effectively for my little community, it is house-FAQ'ed as allowable.

Due to no certain resolution, however, should I ever step outside of my pond, I would always ask, and never expect to be granted it, until an official FAQ granting or refuting it appears.

 

Thanks GC08, and Coredump, for a lively discussion; now, Monoliths and Meltabombs...! :)

[greatcrusade08]

house ruling is ok and all, but there must be a clear interpretation (unless its a true grey area).. the problem here isnt that its a grey area, is blatantly not.. its that people have been running it a certain way for some time and havent been pulled up on until now.

its hard to change long term habits i guess

 

now, Monoliths and Meltabombs...! :)

 

i can answer that too.. if you start the discussion ill post..

[Something Wycked]

After good arguments from both sides, I believe I am personally still on the 'for' side, and my best gaming buddy Nurglez has stated above that he has no problem with it, so effectively for my little community, it is house-FAQ'ed as allowable.

Thats really what it comes down to, amigo. If your group wants to house rule that you don't have to declare how units are being placed on the board outside of the units that are deploying normally, more power to you. My group often does things like this to increase the level of the game from "standard" to "advanced." The commanders on the ground don't know if there are going to be infiltrators, reserves, deep strikers, etc, so we will keep that information from each other to simulate the commanders' lack of knowledge.

 

But RAW is that Infiltration does not allow 11th hour Reserving :)

[thade]

You can only place Reserves on the table (into play) when they're Deployed.

If you place an Infiltrating model not-on-to-the-table, you're breaking the rule!

 

Now, if you try to quibble as to whether "on the table" and "into play" are the same thing, well

 

I mean, when my models are in Rhinos, I set some of them to the side of said table - on said table - and they're not really in play. ;)

 

This really isn't that broken anyway (as I said before). What's the use case? You state you're going to infiltrate a unit, see that there's no where effective (or safe) to place it with infiltration, so you place it instead into Reserves...and it comes in a short time later, randomly.

 

It's not really so bad. <3

[greatcrusade08]

This really isn't that broken anyway (as I said before). What's the use case? You state you're going to infiltrate a unit, see that there's no where effective (or safe) to place it with infiltration, so you place it instead into Reserves...and it comes in a short time later, randomly.

 

It's not really so bad. <3

 

i respectfully disagree.. and you know i have a little knowledge on using these kind of tactics..

generally most people are using scout snipers or something, so it hardly matters.. however alpha strike lists and lists that use lots of stealers or whatnot can really abuse this issue..

if you infiltrate everything and your opponent decides to reserve most of his army, youve essentially lost the 'initiative'.. if you go ahead with your alpha strike on whats left on the table, when his army comes on it will crush your units piecemeal.

suddenly deciding to then put your own units in reserve does give you back an element of surprise.. its true your likely to come on before your opponent, but nothing is certain and you could end up in a game winning position becuase of this.

 

bottom line is this, if you infiltrate thats it, youve made your bed.. your opponent can choose to reserve his army to counter it.. you shouldnt then be able to counter his counter.. otherwise you opponent should then be allowed to counter your counter to his original counter.. its a fairness and tactics issue

[Coredump]

I wish you guys weren't awake when I am asleep... ;)

 

But many of you are *still* creating rules that do not exist. You are also reading "must" when the rule says "may", and you are reading "only" when it doesn't exist in the rules.

 

So, lets do it this way.

 

What rule am I breaking? I have given rules that allow what I want to do. What rule says I can't?

 

Please, not inferred rules, not a missing parenthetical statement, not implied rules, and no making things up like "regular deployment phase", etc... becauee the rules Do Say:

 

Stealers can deploy last

You can reserve instead of deploying

 

What actual rule can you produce that says I can't follow those two rules?

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I have to admit when I came into this argument I was on the side of GC08...But look at the Infiltrate rule again.

 

"Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed." pg 75

 

They have to be deployed last. There are no ifs, ands, or buts. If you dont have the option of deploying them at the same time as the rest of your army, do you not have the option of reserving them at all?

 

 

I would propose that this is the order of events:

 

1) Roll for Deployment.

2) Player with First turn selects a zone and begins deploying. He can deploy everything except infiltrators (even if he wants to put them in his own zone for example). He can declare units are in reserve, deep striking or even outflanking (if they are scouts)

3) Player with second takes the opposing zone and deploys forces in the same way.

4) Players alternate deploying infiltrators as needed including any reserving as wanted.

5) Scout Moves are made, game begins.

[greatcrusade08]

What rule am I breaking? I have given rules that allow what I want to do. What rule says I can't?

 

Please, not inferred rules, not a missing parenthetical statement, not implied rules, and no making things up like "regular deployment phase", etc... because the rules Do Say:

 

Stealers can deploy last

You can reserve instead of deploying

 

What actual rule can you produce that says I can't follow those two rules?

 

So your argument rests on these two points? because the first point is not a rule, its only a snippet from a specific rule.

i believe ive quoted this on several occasions, but ill do so again

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. first the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that they chose to use thier 'infiltrate' special rule). They then deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75)

this is from page 92 of the BRB under infiltrators and scouts

 

note the specific orders to deploy as described on page 75..

 

page 75 clarly shows how the infiltrate USR works in terms of deployment, it is radically different to standard deployment and lists the limits and scope of the rule.. it doesnt state on page 75 that infiltrators may choose to reserve, intead it clearly shows that they HAVE to be deployed..

 

your aguing that the reserves rule works for infiltrators, with no rules to back you up.. and instead come back with "it doesnt say i cant" or that equivalent..

well you know the rulebook doesnt state i have o read the top of the dice, nor does it state i cant jump over the table and beat my opponent to death with the BRB.. some things are that obvious

 

a few posts ago you made a point of specific and general.. the unfiltrate USR deployment rules are specific, its a USR, the reserves rule is general.. unless the specific infiltrate rule allows for reserves then you cant use it.

it clearly says deploys as described on page 75, not page 94 which covers reserves.. this is RAW

 

the same rule quoted above, shows that you must CHOOSE to use infiltrate USR.. any model using the infiltrate USR must deploy and therefore cannot reserve.. this isnt inferred logic, this is much a fact as if the rules stated it.

its like me saying "im 29 years old".. and you saying " it doesnt say your not 28, therefore its not proof that your not 28"... the mere fact that im 29 precludes me from being 28, the same as the requireent to deploy precludes the ability to reserve (which is not deploying)

[thade]

@Coredump: once your RAW vacuum has failed you (and it will) as mine has repeatedly failed me insofar as it supports a consistent and fair ruleset, you will start to see why inference based on past editions, experience, and common sense holds such sway.

 

@gc08: Not only do I hold my ground, my friend, but I support what it implicitly allows. It reduces the risk of said-alpha strike lists by a little (not needlessly exposed) but not a lot (random reserve rolls). Perhaps you could invent a scenario where this is clearly unfair?

[greatcrusade08]

@gc08: Not only do I hold my ground, my friend, but I support what it implicitly allows. It reduces the risk of said-alpha strike lists by a little (not needlessly exposed) but not a lot (random reserve rolls). Perhaps you could invent a scenario where this is clearly unfair?

 

its ok that we dont see eye to eye on this matter my friend.. personally i see the whole aspect as a matter of tactics.. if you go first then the opponent can react to your deployment, however infiltrating mitigates this and lets you react to your opponent regarldess of who deploys first..

however allowing the infiltrator to change his mind not only convenes the rules, it actually adds a level of counter tactics that doesnt seem fair.. its like there is no negatives to using infiltrators, there is no game balance in this.

 

to be fair i admire your stance.. and in most cases your very much right, it wont matter didly squat, but i use a whole army of infiltrators, it can make a huge difference for me

i suppose its leading this topic well of course though, id happily contribute to any tactics thread you start.. in the mean time i wouldnt want to distract coredump from getting the rules wrong and ignoring RAW with his next response..

[BOBMAKENZIE]

it clearly says deploys as described on page 75, not page 94 which covers reserves.. this is RAW

 

the same rule quoted above, shows that you must CHOOSE to use infiltrate USR.. any model using the infiltrate USR must deploy and therefore cannot reserve.. this isnt inferred logic, this is much a fact as if the rules stated it.

 

 

Don't the standard Missions lay our the Deployment of Infiltrators in much the same way as the deployment for normal units GC08?

 

If you are saying that Infiltrators must deploy and cannot end up in reserve (apart from in Dawn of War Missions where they are not allowed to deploy) then I suppose I can agree with that.

 

 

"he then deploys his force... Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves." pg 92 & 93 (In the Pitched battle and Spearhead rules)

 

Do you notice how neither the deployment of regular forces nor the deployment of Infiltrators deals with Reserves? Are you proposing that they may not reserve at all because the missions dictate that forces must be deployed?

[greatcrusade08]

If you are saying that Infiltrators must deploy and cannot end up in reserve (apart from in Dawn of War Missions where they are not allowed to deploy) then I suppose I can agree with that.

 

page 75 under infiltrators does make it sound like they must deploy last.. however page 92 clearly shows its a choice of whether or not to use the infiltrate USR..

if they choose to use the infiltrate USR they deploy last under certain restrictions and allowances (reserves is not among them) if you choose to deploy normally you can opt to reserve them as any unit can during army deployment.

if you reserve them during army deployment, thier infiltrste USR grants them the ability to outflank, which you would delcare at the time of reserving them..

 

this is all RAW

[BOBMAKENZIE]

If you are saying that Infiltrators must deploy and cannot end up in reserve (apart from in Dawn of War Missions where they are not allowed to deploy) then I suppose I can agree with that.

 

page 75 under infiltrators does make it sound like they must deploy last.. however page 92 clearly shows its a choice of whether or not to use the infiltrate USR..

if they choose to use the infiltrate USR they deploy last under certain restrictions and allowances (reserves is not among them) if you choose to deploy normally you can opt to reserve them as any unit can during army deployment.

if you reserve them during army deployment, thier infiltrste USR grants them the ability to outflank, which you would delcare at the time of reserving them..

 

this is all RAW

 

Oh jeeze well you see this just goes to show that I ought to have read the big blaring "INFILTRATORS" heading on page 92. I skimmed right past to the Pitch Battle rules.

 

In which case I have to say I will return to agreeing with you. My only real premise for thinking otherwise was the fact I thought the infiltrate was mandatory which I had never actually heard of previously.