Can you infiltrate into reserve?

[greatcrusade08]

Oh jeeze well you see this just goes to show that I ought to have read the big blaring "INFILTRATORS" heading on page 92. I skimmed right past to the Pitch Battle rules.

 

In which case I have to say I will return to agreeing with you. My only real premise for thinking otherwise was the fact I thought the infiltrate was mandatory which I had never actually heard of previously.

 

dont worry your not alone, it was my first thought aswell.. obviously GW continues with thier bad wording..

page 75 is a description of deploying using the infiltrate USR, if you choose not to use it you dont have to follow those rules

[BOBMAKENZIE]

dont worry your not alone, it was my first thought aswell.. obviously GW continues with thier bad wording..

page 75 is a description of deploying using the infiltrate USR, if you choose not to use it you dont have to follow those rules

 

You'd think they could have at the very least put in a "Units choosing to use the infiltrate rule..." on their but oh well. I suppose its like the dangerous terrain being assigned thing. Why would you change the way you write the rule when you have a perfectly good way already developed????

 

I would like to add quickly that this is also in, my mind, keeping with the spirit of the Reserves rules in that they specify the layout of your reserves must be clearly explained when declaring your reserves. If you are cleverly swapping infiltrators around during their deployment this is confusing at best.

[greatcrusade08]

I would like to add quickly that this is also in, my mind, keeping with the spirit of the Reserves rules in that they specify the layout of your reserves must be clearly explained when declaring your reserves. If you are cleverly swapping infiltrators around during their deployment this is confusing at best.

 

the rules are very strict on the level of declaration concerning reserves, how people think they can 'vague' thier way into this sillyness is beyond my understanding.

its like claiming youve got a tac squad in rhino one and honour guard in rhino two.. then on turn one decide its the other way around... people might let you do it, but its cheating

[thade]

@Coredump: once your RAW vacuum has failed you (and it will) as mine has repeatedly failed me insofar as it supports a consistent and fair ruleset, you will start to see why inference based on past editions, experience, and common sense holds such sway.

First, allow me to apologize. This is too terse to hold the merit it needs to; it definitely begets further explanation. Let me start with this seemingly self-contradictory statement (brace yourselves):

 

I firmly support GC08 in the idea that - rules-wise - deferring an infiltrating unit post-deployment into reserves is likely outside of the rules; I also firmly believe that allowing a unit to defer an infiltrating unit into reserves is perfectly fine. For the reasons why, see GC08's and Grey Mage's posts, as well as my own.

 

Now, Mr. Coredump. It may seem that I'm dismissing your arguments without considering them. In fact, the opposite is true. I am not dismissing them; I am certainly considering them. Here's the real kicker: they are precisely the kind of arguments I was making when I first started trolling the OR board. Slowly, but surely, over the course of my time here, I have slipped away from the "If it's not written, don't use it" mentality.

 

Why? That's the trick, sadly. If you have half the conviction for a "RAW vacuum" (as people call it here) as I did, then there's likely little I can say that will sway you out of it. All I can do I think is encourage you to think it through.

 

I came from games like M:TG where the letter of the rules was so clear that it was a sure-fit for final. That mindset doesn't work for WH40K because there are multiple instances where a literal, rules-as-written interpretation will very much allow two very contradictory events. Some of the more notable (and frustrating to discuss) ones are listed in this forum's Grey Area thread. Take a peek through that and try as hard as you can to see both sides of each argument you find there. Neither side is right...and yet they both are.

 

When you have contradictions like this in a ruleset, it becomes clear that RAW is insufficient. How then can we possibly come up with a fair and unbiased interpretation? Some would say that we can't, and without "telepathy" or "friendship with the authors" (as one poster put it) we just have to dice-off (unless one of us can yell significantly louder than the other, I suppose). Then you get people like me who've fallen into RAI-land.

 

As nighthawks once eloquently said to me, there are some rules in 40k which are so old, so persistent through editions, and so well known that they are considered common knowledge and are thus omitted from the rules. Things like WYSIWYG/Counts-As which is never stated in the BRB...only it is very definitely referred to (in the Characters chapter) as if it is stated, somewhere. Well, it is stated somewhere. In a previous edition, FAQ, White Dwarf, or something, maybe. Where it's really stated is in the minds of those who've played the game since at least the mid-90s.

 

Bottom-line: for many cases it's fine to dish out with RAW. It's very clear for things wound allocation, vehicle armor penetration, and Walkers shooting; it's frustratingly unclear for other things (see the Grey Area thread). So, it's fine to use RAW. But don't dismiss RAI as if it holds no merit. In so many cases it's all we have to make the game fair and fun.

[thade]

i use a whole army of infiltrators, it can make a huge difference for me

Man, I want to throw down with that list so bad. More than once.

[Grey Mage]

If theres no good place to infiltrate your option is to put them in your deployment zone or make the best of a bad situation.

 

Such is life.

[Something Wycked]

But many of you are *still* creating rules that do not exist. You are also reading "must" when the rule says "may", and you are reading "only" when it doesn't exist in the rules.

I know you didn't address me directly, but what rule am I creating that does not exist? I'm quoting the rule that you quoted.

 

What rule am I breaking? I have given rules that allow what I want to do. What rule says I can't?

The Infiltrate rule.

 

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table

On the table is NOT in Reserve. You may not use the Infiltrate rule to delay the decision to place a unit in Reserves; neither the Reserves rule nor the Infiltrate rule allow it.

 

Stealers can deploy last

Genestealers may deploy last if they choose to use their Infiltrate USR, and the Infiltrate USR says

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table

 

What actual rule can you produce that says I can't follow those two rules?

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table

I can't say this enough. Infiltrate allows you to set up on the table. On the table. On the table. On the table. Reserves is, by definition, not on the table, ergo Infiltrate is not a rule that you may use to place your units in Reserve.

[thade]

I'm pretty sure that the table is fundamental here.

[Something Wycked]

I'm pretty sure that the table is fundamental here.

:)

 

I just feel like I'm talking to myself sometimes.

 

Edit: As a side note, I can't check thetyranidhive while at work (its blocked as "social networking" :) ) and I'm curious about how the thread over there is going.

[thade]

I'm pretty sure that the table is fundamental here.

:)

 

I just feel like I'm talking to myself sometimes.

OOoooooh do I hear that, haha.

[SeattleDV8]

Thats the point, units placed in reserve are 'not deployed' where infiltrating units are deployed (ie set up on the table)

The word 'deployed' in GW rules always is in relation to when a unit is put 'on the table'.

This tends to confuse people because it generally happens during deployment, but not always.

[greatcrusade08]

I'm pretty sure that the table is fundamental here.

:)

 

I just feel like I'm talking to myself sometimes.

 

Edit: As a side note, I can't check thetyranidhive while at work (its blocked as "social networking" :lol: ) and I'm curious about how the thread over there is going.

 

pretty much the same tone as over here.. a few of them realise what the rules mean, but coredump and a couple of his followers still remain fixed on thier original point.

he seems to have gotten fixed to this "infiltrate means i deploy last" idea.. but thats not what the rule means at all.. it is but one aspect of the infiltrate rule as a whole as laid out on page 75..

you cant pick and choose

 

what gets me is its very close to this "it doesnt say i cant attitude".. but clearly in some cases like this, the wording of a rule must preclude certain things by its nature..

like saying im out shopping.. i never said i wasnt at home, but the mere fact i was out shopping precludes that possibility (im sure theres a word for this type of logic)

the same goes here, units with infiltrate can choose to either reserve or infiltrate but NOT both, the infiltrate USR precludes reserving since it must be deployed on the table.. the only way to reserve them is to opt NOT to use the USR and choose to reserve instead of deploying as part of the army deployment.

[Coredump]

it doesnt state on page 75 that infiltrators may choose to reserve, instead it clearly shows that they HAVE to be deployed..

So it says that the Reserve rule may no longer be used? Please check that again.

The Reserve rule says it can be used when you are deploying your army.

The Infiltrate rule says you can deploy part of your army last, but you are still deploying it.

 

So, what rule says you can only use the Reserve rules 'some of the time'??

 

Under the Infiltrate section, it does not mention using Reserves for your infiltrators, but it doesn't need to. The best place to learn about the reserve rules, is in the Reserves section. Expecting the Infiltrate rules to cover all other possible rule combination is folly. And it clearly states in Reserves that you can put a unit in reserve instead of deploying it. Since I am 'deploying last' I am clearly deploying, and instead, will put them in reserves.

 

Infiltrate does not mention Reserves, Just like Scout move does not mention turbo boost, and difficult terrain rules don't mention Move Through Cover.

[dswanick]

it doesnt state on page 75 that infiltrators may choose to reserve, instead it clearly shows that they HAVE to be deployed..

So it says that the Reserve rule may no longer be used? Please check that again.

The Reserve rule says it can be used when you are deploying your army.

The Infiltrate rule says you can deploy part of your army last, but you are still deploying it.

 

So, what rule says you can only use the Reserve rules 'some of the time'??

 

Under the Infiltrate section, it does not mention using Reserves for your infiltrators, but it doesn't need to. The best place to learn about the reserve rules, is in the Reserves section. Expecting the Infiltrate rules to cover all other possible rule combination is folly. And it clearly states in Reserves that you can put a unit in reserve instead of deploying it. Since I am 'deploying last' I am clearly deploying, and instead, will put them in reserves.

 

Infiltrate does not mention Reserves, Just like Scout move does not mention turbo boost, and difficult terrain rules don't mention Move Through Cover.

Stop. Just stop.

 

The choice to use Reserves or Infiltrate is made, and must be declared, before allowing your opponent to deploy his forces (if you deploy first) or before rolling the dice to see who deploys their Infiltrators (if you deployed after your opponent). Once the dice are rolled to see who deploys their Infiltrating units first it is too late to go back and change your mind about which units are declared to be in Reserve.

 

Stop trying to justify cheating!

[thade]

Not to toot my own horn, but...Coredump: did you read my post? Just curious.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I must admit that I havent read the whole thread in depth but I dont think I saw this come up but it occurs to me.

 

"First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their 'infiltrate' special rule)." pg 92

 

So Infiltrators are by default to deploy normally but when deploying your force you opt into Infiltrating (or reserve) instead of deploying them normally. We also know that Reserves can only be declared when you are deploying your army.

 

"When deploying their army, players may choose..." pg 94

 

And since we know from page ix that an army and force is the same thing (its the list you build before the game). Does this not mean that the deployment of your forces is already over as soon as you've gone to place them as infiltrators? You've already had your chance when deploying your forces you are now in the process of deploying infiltrators which most distinctly is not your forces.

 

 

(I think this is further backed up by the rules for deployment listed in the missions. They specify that:

 

"He then deploys his force in...

 

Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves" pg 92 & 93

 

They clearly differentiate these steps with a different sentence and paragraph.)

 

This would mean that infiltrators are not eligible for being placed in reserve since you are not deploying your army at the time you are deploying your infiltrators.

 

 

(I cant help but feel like Im just awkwardly sumarizing the main arguement )

[thade]

(I cant help but feel like Im just awkwardly sumarizing the main arguement )

(It's cool. Maybe it will help. <3)

[Legatus]

As far as I am concerned, It has to be declared whether a unit with the Infiltrator special rule is being deployed normally or whether it will use the infiltration deployment. Since the player has thereby declared how the unit will be placed, he cannot take that back later and put the unit in reserve.

 

So effectively, for the purposes of game play, we can say that units cannot be held back and put in reserve during infiltrator deployment.

 

 

However, I still see the argument being raised that deploying Infiltrators would somehow not be considered part of the deployment, and that this would be a reason for why such units could not be put in reserve at that point. But placing Infiltrators is part of deployment. Even scout moves are still considered part of "deployment" in the rules (it mentions the three steps of deployment: deploy force, deploy Infiltrators, make scout moves), though units that make teh scout moves are of course not themselves being "deployed" at that point. However, the scout moves are still part of deployment, so any action that could be taken at any time of deployment could be taken at this step as well.

 

 

So in short:

 

--> Infiltrator deployment is "called" during the normal unit deployment. No taking back later. Thus Infiltrators cannot later be held back and put in reserve instead.

 

--> Deployment consists of the deployment of the force, the deployment of infiltrators, and scout moves. In theory a unit could be put in reserve at any of those steps, provided that it would be "deployed" then, and woukd then be held in reserve instead of being deployed. However, which units will infiltrate is declared during "normal unit deployment".

 

--> If there was a unit that would according to it's own rules (never be deployed with the rest of teh force, and by default during the infiltrator step), then such a unit could indeed be held back and put in reserve instead.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Isnt that part of the point though? Its more the fact its not a part of deploying your forces or army its a part of deploying infiltrators?

 

(@Thade <3)

[Legatus]

Ich you want to be technically correct, then all three steps are part of the "Deploy Forces" part of a battle.

 

 

P. 86:

ORGANISING A BATTLE

1 Agree points limit & choose forces

2 Prepare the Battlefield

3 Select a Mission

4 Deploy Forces

5 Start the Game!

 

 

P. 92:

DEPLOY FORCES

(...)

1-2 Pitched Battle

3-4 Spearhead

5-6 Dawn of War

(...)

INFILTRATORS AND SCOUTS

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their 'Infiltrate' special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (...), and finally they move units with the 'Scout' special rule.

 

 

P. 94:

RESERVES

(...)

When deploying their army, players may (...)

(...)

During deployment, when declaring which units (...)

 

 

P. 75:

INFILTRATE

(...)

Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed.

 

 

I.e. Infiltrators are not deployed "after army deployment". They are deployed as part of army deployment, and are simply placed after everyone else, due to their special rule.

[Grey Mage]

In any event, they are 'deployed' after everything else, and since you do not deploy into reserves- but rather from them- its not possible to place your infiltrators in reserve if they had earlier been declared to be infiltrating.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

But by the mission definitions. Deploying Forces and Deploying Infiltrators are separate steps and we know that Forces and Army mean the same thing.

[greatcrusade08]

The Reserve rule says it can be used when you are deploying your army.

 

nope, its says insead of deploying you may reserve.. infiltrators (who choose to use thier USR) MUST deploy, the fact they deploy last is not important, the fact that deployment is mandatory is a killer blow to your interpretation

 

it doesnt state on page 75 that infiltrators may choose to reserve, instead it clearly shows that they HAVE to be deployed..

So it says that the Reserve rule may no longer be used? Please check that again.

 

actually the recheck needs to occur your end.. page 75 deployment is very different from regular deployment.. infiltrators deploy using the rules set out on page 75.. it doesnt state anywhere that reserves is an option.. given its a USR with specific rules, it needs to be stated what you are allowed to do

[Legatus]

But by the mission definitions. Deploying Forces and Deploying Infiltrators are separate steps and we know that Forces and Army mean the same thing.

It is a separate step. In that it allways occurs after all the other units have set up. They happen in sequence. And both are part of the force deployment.

 

 

Force Deployment:

place forces that aren't infiltrating --> place infiltrators --> move scouts

Done with Force Deployment!

[dswanick]

But by the mission definitions. Deploying Forces and Deploying Infiltrators are separate steps and we know that Forces and Army mean the same thing.

It is a separate step. In that it allways occurs after all the other units have set up. They happen in sequence. And both are part of the force deployment.

 

 

Force Deployment:

place forces that aren't infiltrating --> place infiltrators --> move scouts

Done with Force Deployment!

Escept that the steps do not all happen in succession within a single action.

-Player A deploys all forces not deploying by Infiltration USR or declared "in reserve".

-Player B deploys all forces not deploying by Infiltration USR or declared "in reserve".

-Player A and Player B roll a die to determine who will deploy Infiltrating units first.

-the winning Player deploys his Infiltrating units.

-the losing Player deploys his Infiltrating units.

Regardless if you are the winning or the losing player, it is too late to go back to before the die roll and redifine which units are declared to by "in reserve". It would be no different than declaring a shooting phase with one of your tac squads with a plasma gun, rolling to-hit with the bolters then deciding after not scoring any hits that you don't want to risk a "Get's Hot" roll because you can't kill the target unit.