Can you infiltrate into reserve?

[greatcrusade08]

yeah thats clearly covered under the reserves rule which states you cannot change your decisions later

[thade]

yeah thats clearly covered under the reserves rule which states you cannot change your decisions later

This is the crux of it, really. If somebody disagrees with this, speak now so we can explain to you in simple terms how wrong you are. <3

 

If nobody disagrees, I think we're in the clear.

 

(Now that I've said that, we've got four more pages coming.)

[Legatus]

Regardless if you are the winning or the losing player, it is too late to go back to before the die roll and redifine which units are declared to by "in reserve".

My point is, that the reason you cannot then change it for those units during infiltrator deployment is because you called it during the deployment of the regular units. It is not because some inherent restriction to keep units in reserve during the placement of infiltrators.

 

placing normal units --> placing infiltrators

 

You have to place the infiltrating unit on the board because you declared that you would do so during the earlier part. It is not technically forbidden to keep units in reserve during the later part. There are simply as of yet no units available to make use of that option. If there was a unit that would by default be placed with the infiltrators, and never set up with the initial units, then that unit would not be bound by the player's declaration, for example, and could then be held back in reserve instead of being deployed.

[thade]

Legatus, I see what you are doing here, but I fear your pedantic angle on the letter-of-the-law here may be confusing the issue.

 

Yes, when you Declare you are going to Infiltrate something, you can't then later decide to place it in Reserves; you've already declared otherwise.

 

Yes, the rules make no other direct statement as to whether or not one can "Infiltrate a unit into Reserves". Possibly because this is already covered by the Declaring part.

 

If your goal is to show how full of holes the rules can be, maybe make that clearer? Perhaps I completely misunderstand you, but I honestly am unsure as to what your position is?

[BOBMAKENZIE]

But by the mission definitions. Deploying Forces and Deploying Infiltrators are separate steps and we know that Forces and Army mean the same thing.

It is a separate step. In that it allways occurs after all the other units have set up. They happen in sequence. And both are part of the force deployment.

 

 

Force Deployment:

place forces that aren't infiltrating --> place infiltrators --> move scouts

Done with Force Deployment!

 

But its not that.

 

Player A places his/her army

Player B places his/her army

Players go to deploy Infiltrators

Players Move Scouts.

 

 

Player A still only has one point at which he is deploying his force/army despite the fact he/she may still have a few units left to do something with during the deployment phase of the game.

[greatcrusade08]

i think the disagreement here is down to what constitutes army deployment..

what maters is that regardless of what stages are considered deployment, the only time reserves can be declared is during the intial army deployment stage (well before infiltrators are placed)

all units are deployed except infiltrators and reserves.. both must be declared and you cannot change your mind after ths point

[Legatus]

thade:

Legatus, I see what you are doing here, but I fear your pedantic angle on the letter-of-the-law here may be confusing the issue.

I was being quiet for a while in this thread since the relevant conclusion (that declared infiltrators cannot take back that declaration at a later step) had been reached. But reading the argument again and again that this had something to do with them not being deployed during proper deployment kept nagging me.

 

 

---

 

BOBMAKENZIE:

But its not that.

 

Player A places his/her army

Player B places his/her army

Players go to deploy Infiltrators

Players Move Scouts.

 

 

Player A still only has one point at which he is deploying his force/army despite the fact he/she may still have a few units left to do something with during the deployment phase of the game.

The entire process is army deployment. The first part of which is to actually place your army. Infiltrators are a special case, in that they are placed after everyone else. This is then presented in the rules as "steps", for easy application. First you place all the units that are normally deployed. But you don't place the units that are placed after everyone else. Then you place the units that are placed after everyone else.

 

The deployment of infiltrators is explained in more detail in the "Infiltrate" USR: "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend or foe) have been deployed." Later when that point is brought up again by the Force Deployment rules, that is simply broken down according to how it is applied. First you place all units. Except those with this special rule. Then you place the units with this special rule. "Place all unist except those with this special rule" is only refered to as "deploying your force" in the three boxes with the deployment types, though in the description of how Forces on page 92 it is more specific and points out that you first deploy those forces that aren't infiltrators.

 

I.e. Full rule: "Infiltrators are placed after all the other units."

 

Slightly shortened for Deployment rules: "First place forces that aren't infiltrators, then deploy infiltrators."

 

Shortened version for Deployment type boxes: "First place forces. Then place infiltrators."

[Something Wycked]

Not to toot my own horn, but...Coredump: did you read my post? Just curious.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

If he read your posts or mine, he's ignoring them very capably.

 

It feels like one of those political arguments where the opposing party refuses to acknowledge a point you've made because it doesn't fit into the paradigm of how they see the world.

 

@ Legatus: So you're just trying to clarify the letter of the rules, then?

[Legatus]

@ Legatus: So you're just trying to clarify the letter of the rules, then?

Just for future reference. Not that some erroneous notions are being established in the conclusion of this thread.

[thade]

I think Sir Coredump is on the opposite side of the planet (a few time zones over) so we may not know what his thoughts are til tomorrow morning.

[Something Wycked]

Its been two days since I've started posting in this thread and I have yet to see a reply to me or any of my points. He's had plenty of time. ;)

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Slightly shortened for Deployment rules: "First place forces that aren't infiltrators, then deploy infiltrators."

 

But thats not what it is at all. There is more detail about deployment in the scenario specific deployment rules then there is in the infiltrators. It gives you the steps and lists them quite clearly. Your army (Forces) go down at one step. The reserve rules talk specifically about when you deploy your army being the time to declare your reserves. Coincidence? well ok yeah maybe GW isnt exactly the greatest at this sort of detail thing but I think not. It seems too convenient for them to have down this like this.

 

If the rules said something like "When deploying forces" or "During deployment" I would agree but they are specific that it is when you deploy your army and oo looky there the deployment rules have a specific step for that too.

 

 

Now having repeated myself ad-nauseum I do believe I will stop.

[greatcrusade08]

they are still gtting it wrong over at nid hve, i tried to post but it wont allow me too... not sure why??

[Legatus]

But thats not what it is at all. There is more detail about deployment in the scenario specific deployment rules then there is in the infiltrators.

Not more detail about the Infiltration rules. Just more detail about the other issues concerning deployment. And obviously teh Infiltration rules have nothing to say about all that.

 

 

It gives you the steps and lists them quite clearly. Your army (Forces) go down at one step.

And all things being normal, you would deploy your entire army at this point. But there are two exceptions, pointed out in the deployment rules on page 92. You don't deploy units left in reserve at this point (since they appear later), and you don't deploy infiltrators at this point (since they are placed after everyone else).

 

I.e. Basic Deployment: Deploy your entire army.

 

Exception 1: Units held in reserve appear at a random turn during the game.

 

Exception 2: Units that can infiltrate are deployed after all the other units have set up.

 

Which leads to this simple sequence for army deployment: Deploy all units that aren't reserves or infiltrators, then deploy infiltrators, then make scout moves. As I said, it is simply a break down of the process.

 

 

The reserve rules talk specifically about when you deploy your army being the time to declare your reserves.

It seems to be refering to deployment in general, not to any particular step.

 

"When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

 

"During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, (...)"

 

 

Also, here is the list of steps from one of the deployment boxes (p. 92), but with added context:

 

PITCHED BATTLE

(...)

He then deploys his force in his half of the table (...) His opponent then deploys in the opposite half.

(...)

Deploy any infiltrators and make scout moves.

 

Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn.

Note for one thing that all the steps mentioned in that box were considered "deployment". But what is also striking is that while it first describes that the first player "deploys his force", it describes that the second player then simply "deploys".

 

What that demonstrates is that there is not really any difference in the rules between "deployment" and "army deployment", and that there is simply the special case of infiltrator units being deployed after all the other units from both sides have set up, which is then specifically pointed out in the description of the deployment process.

 

As I said: The basic rule "first one player places his entire army, then the other player places his entire army" and the special rule "infiltrators are placed after all other units from both sides have been placed" will be summarized as "first both players deploy their army, then they deploy their infiltrators".

[BOBMAKENZIE]

they are still gtting it wrong over at nid hve, i tried to post but it wont allow me too... not sure why??

 

Worked for my GC08 they must not like you.

[Leonaides]

Could someone post the link to the relevant TTH page? I was going to go have a look, but couldnt find it (darn Xenos layout...)

[Seahawk]

Link.

[dswanick]

Wierd, I posted a response to the thread and it evaporated...

[Leonaides]

:D

 

Sorry, thats about all I can manage to think of after reading all that. And the one that said B&C is full of Trolls and that GC08 is well respected so his arguement will of course be supported - Piff, I say to that too.

[greatcrusade08]

And the one that said B&C is full of Trolls and that GC08 is well respected so his arguement will of course be supported - Piff, I say to that too.

 

yeah no-one respects me that much :cuss

 

tbh i found the troll comment a laugh myself.. i joined the hive a while back and basically got laughed at when i said i played a competative scout army..

[Grey Mage]

Lets not involve the tyranid hive. They have their rules discussion, we have ours.

 

If for whatever reason any of them are reading this- your more than welcome to log on over here and discuss things on this board, were quite open. If you feel someone is trolling, please- improve our community by hitting the report button. If you feel that a discussion is way off base, come forth and make your argument- someone reading our thread(s) very well could be your next opponent.

 

That being said, the discussion here needs to return the the rules being discussed here or this thread will be closed.

[Something Wycked]

I think we've about covered it, Grey. The last couple of pages have had only one person in opposition to the majority, and they've stopped posting. :P

[Grey Mage]

Oh, I agree- but you never know when someone will bring something new up.