DOA and combat squad

[Linux_Box]

I've done a search and didn't find this answer (clearly answered anyway). Not suppose to assume but here are the assumptions as I'm not here to argue other points of contention which may/may not exist: 1) a unit in reserve MAY combat squad when deployed and 2) you roll 1 time for the entire squad to determine if they come in from reserve. Those are not part of this question therefore not for debate as far as I'm concerned.

 

Situation:

 

Blood Angels assault squad is in reserve. Turn 2 comes and I roll one time for the unit to come in (successfully comes in). Question: I want to combat squad them so I roll 2 scatter rolls using the proper rules for descent of angels? I believe it is 2 separate scatter rolls.

 

I had a discussion today where someone argued I roll only one and all 10 must be placed together THEN split. I disagree based on all the rules I can find and see this as being exactly the same as combat squading them at the start of a game: you don't have to put all 10 in one spot when you start a game so why do you have to do it with DOA/deep strike.

 

so which is it:

 

a ) 2 scatter rolls, one for each combat squad?

b ) 1 scatter roll and all 10 marines are placed together on the table THEN split into 2 combat squads?

[Something Wycked]

The person you were speaking with was incorrect, you had it about right.

 

You roll once for Reserves. If successful, the unit is coming in. You then declare combat squadding. Once the unit has been separated into combat squads, they are separate units for all game purposes; they both need a scatter roll.

 

Edit: Rules quote is right here.

[Legatus]

"The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed. Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations."

(5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 23)

 

Emphasis mine. So when they become available, you decide to combat squad them, and then you can deploy them in separate locations. The decision is made before the squads are placed, not after. Both combat squads deep strike independently from each other, each with its own scatter roll.

[timmytool]

Is it just me or is this a mute point as you can't combat sq anything that goes into reserve(C:BA FAQ p2 c1q6).

 

As you put the sq into play it is not deploying thus cant combat sq then(as not once in the deep strike brb p95 rules does it mention deployment). even normal reserves are "arriving from reserve" not deploying.

 

Combat sq'ing can only happen pre-game during the "deploy forces" step(and cant then be put into reserves) and when coming out of a drop pod(special exemption).

[ilnar]

This, you can't put combat squads into reserve. This they can't deep strike, all the SM codexes have the same FAQ response

[Legatus]

Is it just me or is this a mute point as you can't combat sq anything that goes into reserve(C:BA FAQ p2 c1q6).

What the FaQ is refering to is the fact that the player divides a unit into combat squads when the unit is deployed, not when the unit is put in reserve. Once that unit is arriving from reserve and deployed, it can be divided into combat squads.

 

 

As you put the sq into play it is not deploying thus cant combat sq then(as not once in the deep strike brb p95 rules does it mention deployment).

It does, actually. First paragraph:

 

"Roll for arrival of these units and then deploy them as follows."

 

 

And it is described in more detail on page 94 in reference to units arriving from reserves, though:

 

"Preparing reserves

When deploying their army, the player may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve.

(...)

Rolling for reserves

(...)

Once all units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later. Then he pick another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table."

 

 

And here is the relevant rule for combat squads, from C:BA, p. 23:

 

"The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed"

 

 

I.e.:

 

- units are deployed at the start of the game (before actual turns)

 

- units can "not deploy" and instead be kept in reserve

 

- units becoming available from reserve are then deployed

 

- the decision to split units into combat squads is made when the unit is deployed

 

 

The question in the Blood Angels FaQ was whether you could put one combat squad in a drop pod and put the other combat squad on the table, or arrive on foot over the table edge. The answer explained that this is not possible, since the uniti is not divided into combat squads at that time. The unit is divided into combat squads at the moment it enters the game from reserves. So before that point, the unit is not yet divided into cpmbat squads, so the individual squads cannot be declared to arrive via different means.

[ilnar]

Actually, the FAQ says

units in reserve may not be broken down into combat squads,

Nothing else.

Units placed in reserve to DS or outflank may not combat squad.

The ambiguity of the word deploy, in the reserves rules, is irrelevant, since units placed in reserve are NOT deployed.

[Legatus]

Actually, the FAQ says

units in reserve may not be broken down into combat squads,

Nothing else.

And that is a correct application of the Combat Squad rules, since they explain that the decision to split units into combat squads is made when the unit is deployed, so not earlier, when they are held back and kept in reserve.

 

 

Units placed in reserve to DS or outflank may not combat squad.

The ambiguity of the word deploy, in the reserves rules, is irrelevant, since units placed in reserve are NOT deployed.

Not when they are held back to be kept in reserve. The reserve rules specifically explain that such units are not "deployed" like the rest of the units. They then go on to explain that these units are "deployed" when they become available from reserve.

[ilnar]

The FAQ states that units in reserve may not combat squad, nothing else.

 

FAQ overwrites everything else.

[Legatus]

The FAQ states that units in reserve may not combat squad, nothing else.

And in that it is correct. It is just that the statement is ambiguous.

 

"squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads."

 

This can be read as either:

 

at the moment when they are placed in reserve, the squads may not break down into combat squads

(emphasizing the "are placed in reserve" and "may not break down", i.e. both present tense)

 

or

 

a squad that is placed in reserve may not now or at any later point break down into combat squads

(interpreting the "are placed in reserce" as ultimate condition, instead of a temporary one)

 

 

The former conforms with the Combat Squad rule as written in the Codex Space Marines and the Codex Blood Angels.

 

You could extend the statement to "Squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads, because squads make the choice to be broken down into combat squads when they deploy" The statement from the FaQ would still be correct, so it is a viable interpretation.

 

On the other hand, the latter interpretation, which is also quite literal, introduces a completely new (and quite harsh) restriction.

 

 

Reading it as "squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads, because squads may only break down into combat squads at the moment they are deployed" would require more of an interpretation with regard to the rule in Codex Space Marines and Codex Blood Angels, but would then conform perfectly to that rule.

Reading it as "squads that are placed in reserve may never break down into combat squads" is the simplest reading, so may be favoured by some, but this would be an alteration of the rules as given in two Codices.

 

So

 

Needs interpreting with regard to the original rule, but then conforms completely with that rule

 

or

 

Read without further interpretation, but alters the rule given in two Codices

 

In one instance you assume that the answer in the FaQ is ambiguous, and the rule in Codex Space Marines and Blood Angels works as written, and in the other instance you assume that the FaQ is completely literal, and the rule as it is given in the two Codices has to be played according to the FaQ's clarification.

[ilnar]

If squads arriving from reserves are allows to combat squad on deploying as you say, why does the drop pod rules state that units using one may combat squad?

Easiest ruling is that units in reserve cannot combat squad, as stated in the FAQ except drop pod units, which may

[Legatus]

If squads arriving from reserves are allows to combat squad on deploying as you say, why does the drop pod rules state that units using one may combat squad?

Because it is not allowed to have two different units inside a transport, but the unit that is supposed to be combat squadded arrives in one vehicle, so it must be a single, whole unit. If you wanted your tactical squad to move onto the table in a Rhino, you would then not be allowed to combat squad them, as they are deployed as one unit inside the Rhino. They are deployed as one, and may not chose to combat squad after already having been deployed.

Drop pods are an exception. The unit also arrives as a whole inside the drop pod, but you are then allowed to combat squad them at the moment they disembark.

 

-> decision to combat squad must be made upon deployment

 

-> units arriving inside a transport are deployed as a whole (because two units would not be allowed to ride inside the transport), so cannot combat squad afterwards

 

-> units arriving in a drop pod are an exception, they arrive as a whole, but are allowed to combat squad when disembarking

 

 

Easiest ruling is that units in reserve cannot combat squad, as stated in the FAQ except drop pod units, which may

It's easy, allright. But I am not sure about easiest. Using the rule from Codex Space Marines or Codex Blood Angels as given is also easy.

 

But then, understanding the rules for combat squads should have been easy, and should have made the FaQ question redundant. The FaQ answer is brief, and technically correct according to the Codex rules. Unfortunately it is so brief that it is also ambiguous.

 

 

Edit:

 

Another way to judge the issue is to see the answer to the question whether one can deploy one combat squad and keep the other in reserve as either:

 

"No, because... according to the rule in your Codex that is not allowed."

 

or

 

"No, because... of this here new restriction that wasn't in the Codex."

[ilnar]

If that's true, then why have the squads in reserve may not combat squad rule at all?

[Legatus]

Because the person (or persons) asking the FaQ question was not aware that you couldn't combat squad a unit that was kept in reserve.

[Linux_Box]

Actually, the FAQ says

units in reserve may not be broken down into combat squads,

 

That's always been true. You CS when they are deployed. Therefore a unit coming out of reserve and being deployed can CS. Once it leaves reserves (you roll to see if they can be deployed) they are no longer 'in reserve' and therefore can be CS since they are being deployed.

 

Only an opinion but people saying 'never' are putting in a word which does not exist in the rules/FAQ/etc. Read the rules/FAQ/etc. and mind your P's & Q's (people who have taken a philosophy class will understand that part)... 'never' is not part of the situation.

[SeattleDV8]

In the Dark Angels Codex that was true in the past.

DA Codex pg. 23 "Units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads and vice versa."

Thankfully this line was removed by errata when 5th Ed came around.

Notice the different wording.

In 5th units placed in reserve are 'not deployed'. therefore are not allowed to combat squad at that point.

When the unit comes in from reserve it is 'deployed' and as such may combat squad at that point.

[brookzooka]

If a squad can arrive in a drop-pod and then combat squad, how come i can't enter from reserve in a rhino and then disembark into combat squads on the turn it arrives?

 

It's the same action is it not?!!!!

[thade]

The simple answer is "No, because Drop Pods are weird and are an exception to many deployment rules."

 

The squad is in the Drop Pod pre-Deployment; it combat squads when it deploys...which is when it lands, per the Drop Pod rules.

 

The squad in reserves combat squads when it deploys, which is when it comes onto the table (either from the table edge or when you place it during Deployment); at no point are both squads allowed to be in the Rhino.