6th Ed. Rumors and GK's

[Something Wycked]

Thread is here for reference.

 

There are a few things that will affect how we play as GK with the 6th edition rumors:

 

Deep Striking 18"+ away from enemy units results in no scatter rolled for the unit; 12-18" results in 1d6" scatter, 6-12" results in 2d6" scatter, and 6" or less away from enemy units results in 3d6" scatter. Servo Skulls are even more beneficial, in my opinion. It would seem to be that this would be perfect for us, except:

 

- if you deploy in 24” distance from enemy you cannot shoot with 24” weapon or assault with 24” movement

So Deep Striking and then getting an effective shooting phase will be hampered for us. However, Teleport Homers have been buffed because every unit that Deep Strikes is allowed an assault immediately after the Deep Strike. Mordrak + Libby with Homer (or Libby with Homer in a Stormraven shooting across the board) with a large, assault-oriented, teleporting force in Reserve looks like it will be very scary. Also, Warp Quake just became much more valuable in warding off enemies attempting to assault via Deep Strike.

 

Also compare the various Deep Striking scatter distances with regard to The Summoning. If you are placing the summoned unit 18"+ away from an enemy or 12-18" away, but in range of a Servo Skull, then the unit won't scatter.

 

I won't get into the Strategems because there's too much there to cover.

 

Ranged weapons of the Assault type will add one to the bearer's close combat attacks; Grey Knights are getting their True Grit back! Interceptors also became fairly scary for assault troops- they will be able to move 16" and then assault, having 3 attacks. Add a Falchion, 4 attack 16" charge.

 

Note that there is no Assault Phase movement, so it won't be 22" moved, just the 16" charge in the Movement phase.

 

GK shooting will also become more effective- with all of the dakka that we put out, we'll get a lot of "Directed Wounds". Every 5th wound caused by normal units is allocated by the wounding player. Add in that cover is generally shifting one number to the worse, and cover saves won't be as effective.

 

Those are the things that stick out at me the most after reading those huge blocks of rumor text. Anyone else find anything that really applies to GKs?

[Valerian]

Perfect continuation of our discussion in the other thread.

 

Another one that stands out for me is the ability for Independent characters to dictate their wounds in close combat and in shooting. Most ICs don't have much in terms of ranged weaponry, but or GMs and Brother-Captains can now snipe specific models within enemy units with Psycannons! No wonder they were priced so high for those guys; say goodbye to your hidden squad leaders and heavy/special weapons.

 

V

[Lord Sirrion]

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe most of the rumors will come true. the game seems to be going back to 2nd edition days and I seriously doubt GW would do that. It looks like 40k would become the most complicated wargame out there and definetly hurts the 10 and 12 year old audience GW sells so much stuff to.

 

But I could be wrong.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe most of the rumors will come true.

 

WORD to the max. Why bother spending all this time discussing it now? 6th edition is far away and all these rumors could turn out to be BS.

 

 

But I could be wrong.

 

I can't be.

[Valerian]

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe most of the rumors will come true.

 

WORD to the max. Why bother spending all this time discussing it now? 6th edition is far away and all these rumors could turn out to be BS.

 

 

We bother to discuss it because, like most things on these forums, it gives us something to think about and to talk about. If they don't pan out then fine; we're not spending any money, so nothing's lost if the rumours are bunk. If the rumors are mostly valid, then we've had a bit of discussion ahead of time about how the changes will affect this army. This is pretty much how these rumor threads work; I think the rumor thread for the 5th edition codex started over a year before the actual book was released, and had something like 50 pages of comments before it died out.

 

Like any thread, if you aren't interested you don't have to participate. Feel free to skip it and move along to another topic that does interest you.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Assault Weapons granting an extra CC attack.

 

True Grit returns and Strike Squads become quite potent...

 

EW (3) countering "Remove From Play" which is now equal to ID (3). Effects Warp Rift, Zone of Banishment and things like the Hyperstone Maze.

 

Shock Troop: always rolls a single D6” under 18” in a deep strike, a hit is a hit

 

Would be nice for us. Especially combined with Servo Skulls.

 

block: psyker in normal condition in 24” of other psyker can attempt to block psychic power, on 5+ blocked, on 1 perils of warp attack (unchanged), if equipped with similar wargear, psyker can decide which to use, only one block attempt per power

 

Psuedo Pychic Hoods for *every* GK unit? Yes please!

 

Deep Strike: mishab table as before, place squad leader,

if in 6” of enemy: 3D6” scatter, use arrow on hit symbol, if in 12”: 2D6” hit is hit, in 18”: 1D6”, outside 18”: no scatter

may only advance on turn of arrival, even with fleet or flat out, count always as (advance) moving, charge allowed

 

Assault after DS? That could impact our Playstyle.

 

*especially* with Mordrak.

 

He appears next to a unit with no scatter, then charges with his 5 Ghost Nights and as many attached Characters that can DS as possible...

 

2 one unit for every full 1500 points can get one of the following USR: Tank Hunter, Shielded, Fearless (1), Preferred Enemy, Relentless

 

Relentless Purgators? Or Relentless 4 PSycannon Purifiers.

[Oiad]

Haven't had time to thoroughly read all these rumours through but if your highlights are true GML, perhaps Mr. Ward really did have 6th Edition in mind when writing this. Grey Knights will turn from a 'shooting first/ assault second army' (as some have arguable been describing GKs recently) to scary all-rounders. Spamming 2A FW attacks with plenty of precision, assault-enabled, deep-striking action and mass psychic protection will make other armies weep. As much as I'd like it, I'm very pessimistic about it.

 

EDIT - Just reread the 2A thing. As a bonus that is only gained when assaulting it is pretty unimpressive by comparison to the above. :P

[Lord Sirrion]

I didn't say we shouldn't discuss anything, I'm just highly doubtul that these rumors will pan out. This takes the game in such a crazy direction that it almost isn't 40k anymore. It's a COMPLETE reboot of everything.

 

The only thing that I think lends credence to these rumors is that it will require people to completely rework their armies. New models to buy everywhere! Which, of course, is what GW wants us to do.

 

but anyways, the deepstrike rules are pretty cool. I run a mostly deepstriking army and the ability to either not scatter or to assualt out of deepstrike is pretty nice. Not likeing the can't shoot 24" weapon thing.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Groans.

 

I liked second edition, but I liked second edition as second edition. Second edition as sixth edition just seems a bit naff.

 

Would Saga of the Bear be Eternal Warrior 1 or 2?

[Gentlemanloser]

All Codexes are going to require massive FAQs/Errata when the next edition hits. Maybe even information in a WD, as that's supposed to be changing as well.

 

Hitting MCs on a 2+ is gonna suck for DreadKnights.

 

But, being able to suppress yourself to stack saves will mean that versus poisoned weapon torrents you'll at least get a 2+ then a 5++ save. :/

 

Overwatch also looks very nice, as we have a wealth of Assault Weapons.

 

Let's hope we get access to both Overwatch and Shock Troops.

 

The movements rules (no charge move, Surge instead) seem to support the idea the turn structure is changing to Movement - Assault - Shooting. So while we get an extra attack on that turn we 'surge' (due to SB being Assault) we won't be able to whittle down enemies with fire beforehand. If we break the unit, can we then shoot them after? :/

 

I'm undecided if this makes CC prowess even more important than it is now.

 

Edit:

 

Another biggie.

 

Counterattack also negates Furious Charge. Gives a nice bonus to the GMs "Shield of Blades" (and change to Assault Weapons in CC).

 

Facing BA or Daemons? Give your units Counterattack. Not only do you get the extra charge attack (if it still exists!) you get your extra attack from Assault Weapons, get to use Grenades (hopefully?) and negate the BA/Bloodletters FC.

 

Win?

 

More thoughts about;

 

quote]IC: can roll two saves at the same time

 

Draigo? 2+ then a 3++. Ouch.

 

Maybe Strom Shields will be changed form thier 3++ save. Maybe give 'Shielded' or the like.

 

And Squad Leaders can take two saves as well. Not great for Strikes, but a nice bonus for Termies if there's no attached IC.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

We bother to discuss it because, like most things on these forums, it gives us something to think about and to talk about. If they don't pan out then fine; we're not spending any money, so nothing's lost if the rumours are bunk.

 

 

You are losing time, and since time is money, you are losing money. QED. ;)

 

 

Obviously people can discuss whatever they want to, and if this interests you fine. I just feel there is plenty to discuss that actually exists within the game already...

[Valerian]

Someone over on Warseer created the Ballistic Skill chart: http://i.imgur.com/9vRil.png

 

If this pans out, then our Interceptors will have another advantage in that they will be harder to hit, when moving, than standard infantry. When other Marines now only hit them half of the time, that really helps their survivability.

 

Valerian

[greatcrusade08]

thats a cool chart, but it doesnt have speeders anywhere on it?

[Valkyrion]

Speeders are vehicles. I haven't properly read through all of the rumours, but didn't the flat out and vehicle movement rule change in the rumours?

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2801624

 

Yep, vehicles have 6" movement, fast vehicles 6" move and flat out, fast skimmers 8" move and flat out.

[Gentlemanloser]

Missed this gem;

 

Transport:

Fire point: can fire if vehicle has advanced or surged, but only 12” regardless of weapon type, embarked troops are relentless

 

OK, so no point for Multi Meltas over Meltaguns (we'll apart form us where were could get three MM + three MG by using Servistors and Warriors...) but sticking 4 Psycannon Puri's in a Chimera?

 

Or even just the usual 2 Psycannons (On Puri's or Strikes) and getting the full 4 rof, while you move (to make it harder to hit you).

 

Hmmm.

 

Jokers in Chimera's? 12" Lascannon shots an on the move?

[Valerian]

Servo Skulls are going to be sweet, too, if I'm understanding it all correctly. Deep Strike 7" away from target enemy unit with Strike Squad designated as Flank Guard on Turn 2. Scatter would normally be 2d6 (from 6" to 12"), but Skulls reduce it to just 1D6. Land safely then Surge 12" into close combat, using Assault Weapon Storm Bolters to pull 3 Force Weapon attacks each on the charge. Cast HH for Strength 5. Profit.

 

If all pans out, I can see a thematic all Deep-Striking Teleport Assault force of Knights doing very well, especially with the very high likelihood of all Reserves being on the table by Turn 3. Makes me a little happier about not investing in any Rhinos/Razorbacks yet.

 

OK, so no point for Multi Meltas over Meltaguns (we'll apart form us where were could get three MM + three MG by using Servistors and Warriors...) but sticking 4 Psycannon Puri's in a Chimera?

 

Meltaguns still only enhance AP within 6", whereas Multimelta would get the extra AP for their entire 12" range (unless I'm missing something), then you can park them for the full 24" range when you get where you want them.

 

V

[Something Wycked]

thats a cool chart, but it doesnt have speeders anywhere on it?

The chart says Marines will hit Flat Out vehicles on a 4+.

 

I'm really liking that Jump Infantry will be harder to hit. Just another bonus for my Interceptor-heavy force!

 

Transport:

Fire point: can fire if vehicle has advanced or surged, but only 12” regardless of weapon type, embarked troops are relentless

 

OK, so no point for Multi Meltas over Meltaguns (we'll apart form us where were could get three MM + three MG by using Servistors and Warriors...) but sticking 4 Psycannon Puri's in a Chimera? ...

Actually, it makes Heavy weapons in transports much better. They're relentless, so they can fire, but their range is limited to 12". Makes it no point for Meltaguns in transports over Multimeltas, since both can fire, at 12" range, and the Multi will get the bonus die, while the Melta will not.

 

The Psycannons wouldn't be as good of a choice since their range will be halved.

 

The Jokes will work out nicely in a transport since their weapon options are Heavy.

 

@ Valerian: Absolutely. Grey Knights will be able to Deep Strike in and assault very effectively, especially when the vast majority of your units will be coming in turn 2 and 3. Not to mention the Mordrak combo getting into assault on turn 1.

[Gentlemanloser]

Doh at increased 2d6 pen range! :P

 

Inquisitors with Servitors in Rhinos it is! ;)

 

Still Psycannons wouldn't be a bad choice. As you get an effective 18" Range out of them, so lose 6" for always firing 4 shots.

 

Not a bad trade off at all.

[Valerian]

I don't want to continue the debate from that other thread here, but I've got a couple hypothetical questions for you fellows. Based on the supposed 6th Edition changes:

 

1). Is there anything that advantages Terminator squads over Strike squads? Although they are fairly closely matched, I'm with G, that in most cases there isn't much incentive to choose Terminators over Strikes for the points in 5th Edition.

 

2). Is Crowe still a liability (Crowe tax), or is there something hidden in the new rules that makes him worthwhile, other than just get access to Purifiers as Troops?

 

3). Any other "sub-optimal" gear, or units, in current dex that will turn out to be worthwhile?

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Well GKT Justicars would be able to roll both their 2+ Armour Save and their 5++ Save. Which is nice.

[Something Wycked]

1). Is there anything that advantages Terminator squads over Strike squads? Although they are fairly closely matched, I'm with G, that in most cases there isn't much incentive to choose Terminators over Strikes for the points in 5th Edition.

I haven't yet seen anything that will change the fact that Strikes are superior.

 

2). Is Crowe still a liability (Crowe tax), or is there something hidden in the new rules that makes him worthwhile, other than just get access to Purifiers as Troops?

Well, he will be able to use both his 2+ and his 4++... But thats about it. He'll lose out on the bonus attack in melee from his Stormbolter. Though Cleansing Flame will be even more important when you cannot shoot prior to charging.

 

3). Any other "sub-optimal" gear, or units, in current dex that will turn out to be worthwhile?

16" charging DK's will be nice (with PT), or 16" move while firing a heavy weapon.

 

Psilencers will still be bad, but the ability to fire them at 12" out of a moving Rhino/Chimera will help them. A little.

 

Swords and/or Staves will be slightly more important on Justicars and IC's, since they will be able to roll both saves against wounds that don't ignore armor (and more wounds will be send their way via Directed Wounds), while Staves may be slightly less valuable on non-Squad Leader/Characters for the same reason.

 

Astral Aim gets worse, as it grants a cover save better than the future normal cover save.... That's all I can think of at the moment.

[Valerian]

Someone posted this to Warseer; very helpful in keeping the rumored rules straight with the improved formatting.

 

 

6th Edition Rules Summary

[Something Wycked]

Thanks for that, V.

 

In reading over it in the new and improved format ;) I noticed something that may hamper Draigowing lists a bit.

 

IC's join/leave a squad in the Consolidation phase, at the end of the player turn. This means that if you wish to detach an IC to assault an enemy unit independently, the IC must be on his own for an entire enemy player turn before he may do so- so no detaching in the Movement phase and assaulting two different targets.

 

Edit: And now I've pieced together the significance of Torrent of Fire. Not only are they punking wound allocation shenanigans with the Abandon rule (units with wounded models that aren't MCs or ICs must remove all but 1 of the wounded models as casualties) but they're also punking it with Torrent of Fire; the shooting player declares ToF, the defending player chooses which armor save his unit will use (if mixed saves). All the models in the target unit are now treated as homogenous for wounding purposes and roll saves collectively instead of individually.

 

If these rumors are true, Draigowing as we know it is dead.

[Valerian]

I think you can join/attach ICs in either the Preparation and/or the Consolidation phases. You are correct about ToF though. They are definitely going after Wound Allocation, which will definitely be game changing for Paladins, TWC, and Nobz, to name the biggest WA units.

 

V

[Something Wycked]

Gah, you're right, I missed that in the Preparation section.

 

Something else I noticed though:

 

Fleet:

(1): Infantry, beasts, monstrous creature, jump infantry, jet pack infantry: I-test, if successful, can

perform fleet movement, can always advance during disembarkation;

bikes and jetbikes: I-test successful: can make 6” move in consolidation phase

(2)[bounding Leap]: As Fleet (1), with no I-Test required

Interceptors can take an I test and get a 24" charge!