Blindhamster Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Alright, so I played two games this weekend, both were 2k games and we weren't allowed to change our lists between opponents. First Game was against Orks Second Game was against Tau The Ork Game was an Annihilation Mission using Dawn of War scenario The Tau Game was a Seize ground Mission, also using Dawn of War My list was: Dante (225) Honour Guard (300) 2 Honour Guard w/ Storm Shield and Power Axe (I know its not as good as Lightning Claws, but I loathe the appearance of them.. the old school ones were cool, the new... not so much) Novitiate Chapter Banner bearer w/ Infernus Pistol Blood Champion Priest (85) Jump Pack Hand Flamer Priest (65) Power Axe Sternguard (295) 4 additional Marines 5 Combi Flamers Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon Sanguinary Guard (200) Tactical Squad (200) 5 additional marines Plasma Pistol Plasma Gun Plasma Cannon Assault Squad (230) 5 additional marines 2 Melta Guns Thunder Hammer Vanguard (400) 5 additional marines 5 Power Weapons Power Fist Jump Packs The Ork Player took roughly: Warboss w/Mega Armour + 9 Man Unit of Nobs, included Pain Boy, multiple Power Claws and Cybork Body as well as a Banner for bonus WS in a Truck with a Rockit Launcher Mek Boy with 10 Boys including a Rockit Launcher and Power Claw all in a truck with Big Shoota 3 Mega Nobs with a combi rockit launcher on one, in a truck with reinforced ram and wrecking ball 10 Boys with a big shoota and power claw in a truck with big shoota 30 man ork boy units including 2 (or 3?) Big Shootas and a Power Claw Nob 30 man ork boy units including 2 (or 3?) Big Shootas and a Power Claw Nob 3 Deff Koptaz 12 Tank Bustaz including 1 Tank Hammer and a bomb squig (mightve been more, didnt see them get used) all in a Looted Wagon with Two Big Shootas 10 Storm Boyz including nob with power claw The Tau Player had: O'Shava 3 man Battlesuit team including 3 flamers, the barrage assault gun (Airburst fragmentation launcher or something like that), Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, shields plus two marker Drones (not sure about other stuff) 6 Man stealth suit team w/ 2 Fusion Blasters 12 gun drones (as a fast attack choice I think?) 12 man firewarrior team in devilfish with burst cannons and I think missile pods instead of drones plus flachet launcher 12 man firewarrior team in devilfish with burst cannons and I think missile pods instead of drones plus flachet launcher 12 man firewarrior team in devilfish with burst cannons and I think missile pods instead of drones plus flachet launcher 12 Man Firewarrior team on foot Hammerhead with additional burst cannons Skyray with additional burst cannons (I Think) It's possible the tau player had other upgrades, but I've no idea what exactly Anyway. Game 1: The Orks got first turn, and deployed the two large units in cover (one was in a crater, the other in a crater filled ruined building. I deployed a single tactical squad in a large crater, nothing else on the table. Ork Turn 1 Everything else obviously came on from the table edge, trucks moving 13" thanks to red paint jobs, not a lot else as far as movement goes. He succesfully rolled to see my tactical marines with one of the units in cover, and killed two marines (this was to be a portent of my luck with dice throughout the game) No Close combat. Blood Angel Turn 1 Drop pod with sternguard and priest scattered away from the unit of orks in the crater resulting in the unit being out of combi flamer range, opted to fire the ignores cover rounds which were at least still in rapid fire range... but still only killed 6 orks. Tacitcal squad failed to see anything. Ork Turn 2 Trucks all moved forward, looted wagon rolled a 1 and surged along a road, storm boyz moved toward tactical squad, the boyz in the crater opposite my sternguard rolled a 6 for difficult terrain and cleared it, now within charge range (if he'd rolled anything less, he'd have had to roll difficult terrain on the assault phase as well) Deff Koptaz moved toward the drop pod Tactical squad took another 2 casualties from only 3 heavy shooters attacking them. Sternguard lost three models to shoota boyz shooting at them (failed all armour saves and all feel no pain rolls, again this was a consistant thing throughout the game). Storm Boyz shot and killed a tacitcal marine. Deff Koptaz and rockit launchers on (or in) trucks failed to damage the drop pod Ork Boyz Unit Charged the Sternguard. The Sternguard (with priest) killed 6 orks in the close combat, I had to make 7 saves on the sternguard, failed them all, and failed all of their feel no pains. The Nob Killed the Priest... to be honest at this point, I was pretty dejected, you simply don't expect to lose so many to non power weapon attacks when you're a marine with feel no pain... Orks didn't bother consolidating as there was nowhere for them to go. Blood Angel Turn 2 My turn saw the sanguinary guard and RAS(with priest) show up, I opted to put the Sanguinary guard as close to the ork unit as possible (making use of the locator beacon to not scatter at all) while the RAS were placed to be close enough to the Sanguinary guard to confer feel no pain. The sanguinary guard and assault squad both opened up on the boyz unit and killed another 6 between them (i'd hoped for more all things considered) My Tactical squad Plasma Cannon killed himself and otherwise did nothing. Ork Turn 3 Ork Looted Wagon rolls another 1 and rams a stone fortified wall, but took no damage, trucks continue to converge on the drop pod location. Storm boyz got right up close to the Tactical Squad (about 4 inches away) Mega Nobz moved closer also. Everything else stayed in their transports Shooting managed to destroy the storm bolter on the drop pod, but nothing else. This round saw a slight change in fate in that the shooting of the depleted boyz unit as well as a couple of longer ranged big shootas caused the RAS no wounds - My opponent explained that killing the RAS was better for him as it was 2 kill points - fair enough. The Other large boyz unit still couldn't shoot as a truck and looted wagon blocked LoS. The Smaller Boyz unit charged the RAS, and were knocked down to only 8 models by my boys in red. They took down a single marine in return. The Ork player used a Boss pole to keep them in combat, but killed 5(!!!) more Orks to do so Blood Angel Turn 3 Dante and the Vanguard both arrived (I declared heroic Intervention) I landed Dante and the Honour Guard a little infront of the truck, but close enough to the RAS to confer them +1 Attack. The Vanguard landed abouf 4 inches from the truck, but within 6 of the 3 remaining boyz. The Tactical Marines killed a Single Mega Nob. Sanguinary Guard moved up to be adjecent to the truck and Dante (again within range of the novitiate and chapter banners bonuses). Dante shot and sploded the truck... or would have if not for the Orks rather annoying rules. instead of having the passengers be placed where the truck was... he got to disembark them, and did so behind the truck... out of charge range of the Vanguard Squad... I was unimpressed and a number of curses were uttered, my opponent chuckled curse him! To make it worse the truck remained in play as a wreck, meaning for the sanguinary guard to charge they needed a 5 or 6 on difficult terrain rolls... I got lucky and rolled a 5. The Vanguard charged the three remaining Ork boyz and unsuprisingly wiped them out. Unsuprisingly however My sanguinary guard were also wiped out, I did managed to kill 1 nob and take 3 other nobs down to a single wound, but the orks invulnerable save rolls were impressive (I hit with 15 out of 20 attacks which was quite good, wounded with 10 of those, he passed 5 5+ invulnerable saves). My Vanguard and RAS both Consolidated into positions ready to support Dante and the Honour Guard in the Inevitable Attack that was coming. Again I neglected to move the Tactical squad. (currently it was at 2 Kill point to me, and a whopping 3 to the ork player, but much of that came down to some rather awesome luck on the orks part and a distinct lack of luck on mine) Ork Turn 4 The looted wagon moved normally this turn and began it's move toward the main melee(and the drop pod). The storm Boyz veered away from the under strenght tacticals, taking a wider route toward the combats near my drop pod. The truck with mek boy and the truck with normal boyz unit moved closer also. Shooting saw the Blood Champion and two Vanguard get killed by the combi scorcher in the nobz squad, but no other casualties to either squad. The Deff Koptaz opted to shoot at the RAS this time but failed to hit anything. In the close combat phase the mega nobz finally charged the tactical squad. The warboss charged dante (the rest of the nobz focussed on the honour guard) The truck with normal boyz made use of a boarding ramp to attack the drop pod with the power claw nob. The Drop pod was finally destroyed. The Tactical Squad were wiped out to a man. Things were looking bleek. However Dante Chopped the Warboss into little bits (hit with all 6 attacks, wounded with all attacks, warboss passed 3 invulnerable saves... but failed 3 also). The Honour Guard killed two of the nobz (one of the ones with a single wound left, one with 2 wounds) In Return the Nobz killed one storm shield marine (failed his invulnerables from the power claw) and the novitiate was also killed. I did however win combat though the orks didn't run/ Blood Angel Turn 4 This round saw me move the RAS toward the Deff Koptaz, the Vanguard toward Dante and Nobz. Each unit charged their respective target. The RAS wiped out the Deff Koptaz and Dante combined with Furious Charging Vanguard wiped out the remaining Nobz. All My units Consolidated closer to eachother (so the RAS priest wound confer FnP and FC. (Kill Points were now 5 all, and he had nothing that was especially hard hitting left) Ork Turn 5 The Tank Bustas got out of their looted wagon and shot at dante and honour guard, hitting with 8 out of 11 shots and wounding with all 8... I sat there dumb founded, even my opponant said he felt pretty harsh for so many hitting (as they've failed to ever destroy a tank with guns) Dante passed his 2 invulnerables but both the remaining honour guard (pw and ss, chapter banner) were killed. This luck pretty much continued from there. 10 boyz and the big mek shot and charged the vanguard, killed the power fist and 1 marine, the storm boyz charged Dante (and passed their leadership test) and the Vanguard simultaneously, but unsuprisingly placed the power claw in contact with Dante. I struck first and to his credit Dante killed 5 orks, The Vanguard however... with 12 power weapon attacks killed a single ork... I was wondering what I'd done to be forsaken at such a time, the Normal Vanguard marine remaining failed to hurt the Mek Boy. Dante Was attacked with 4 Power Claw attacks, the Ork hit twice and wounded twice, I passed one save and failed another, which saw Dante fall to the floor, his ornate armour shredded. The Combat was a Draw, purely because Dante gave away 4 entire wounds... gutting for me to say the least. Blood Angel Turn 5 The RAS did the only thing they could, they jumped over the combat, to placed for a multi charge of their own. They killed 3 whole storm boyz... in their phase, the Vanguard again killed a single ork with 12 power weapon attacks, my rotten luck continued. The Boyz killed the one remaining non power weapon vanguard marine, while the Ork Storm Boy Nob took down 2 more assault marines. My Thunder Hammer failed to hit the Mek Boy with any of his three attacks. The Orks then used boss poles to stay in the fight (killing the last normal storm boy). Ork Turn 6 The Ork player callled Waaaagh and got the Tank Bustas into the melee, I killed the Storm boy Nob, but lost the priest to the tank hammer attacks as well as 3 of the Tank Bustas (all 4 models focused on the priest). I again killed a single boy with 12 power weapon attacks. Game Ended At that point I conceded, it was then at 6 Kill points to me, 8 to the ork player, but with the horrible luck on rolls I'd had consistantly for most of the game, I just couldn't face getting wiped out in my own combat phase. My opponent even said he felt I actually should've won, even on averages My remaining forces at the end of turn 4 should've been able to roll over most of what he'd had left. All in all, I felt that I'd wasted a kill point in not falling back with the tacticals, but otherwise most of my tactics had gone as intended, the Emperors tarrot was simply against me in this game. 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Blindhamster Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 Game 2 (the Tau Game) Tau Player got 1st turn and set up first, placing two devilfish (with firewarriors inside) in ruined buildings (he had sensor spines to ignore terrain) , his objective was placed under them. I placed my tactical squad in the same craters as my ork game (objective was also placed here), the assault squad was placed in the open opposite the craters that led toward the devilfish, there was a path to the left of them I could use and not be in difficult terrain. I failed to seize the initiative. Tau Turn 1 The hammerhead and skyray moved onto the table along a road between two tall buildings about half way between the tactical and assault squad. The Gun Drones and on foot fire warriors moved on quite far away from the rest of the tau army and between 3 and 4 turns of moving and running from my own objective. The final devilfish moved on on the path I intended to take the assault squad up. O shava and his battesuits came on directly opposite the tactical squad with the stealth suits on a high wall next to them. He failed to hit with any of his 4 marker lights, but saw and killed 2 assault marines. Blood Angel Turn 1 the drop pod with sternguard and priest landed right infront of the battlesuit team (and oshava). This was a diversion tactic, I knew he'd consider them a major threat and focus fire them. Nothing walked onto the table Tactical squad didnt see anything, assault squad ran further forward. The sternguard fired 5 flamer templates and and additional 6 AP3 bolter shots (the final marine got himself killed, even with a priest) I managed to take a single wound off of the battle suit team which was a little annoying, but the squad served their purpose. Tau Turn 2 The devil fish moved about a bit, getting into better positions. the on foot fire warriors and the drone team moved toward a crater for cover, also bringing them a little closer to the tactical squad. The Hammer head fired its blast template shot at the tactical squad and killed 2 marines. the skyrays burst cannon killed a single assault marine. Between two more devilfish he killed two more assault marines. leaving me with 5. I passed my moral check. The sternguard took plasma shots and flamer shots from the battle suits as well as a devilfishes smart missiles and the entire 6 man team of stealth suits fire power, but only lost 3 models. The priest finally remembering his job. O shava and his battle suits charged the sternguard but due to placement of the priest, he couldn't get into base contact with him. I placed the priest next to a standard battle suit. This combat saw O shava kill 4 more sternguard. In turn The Priest killed the suit with a single wound, but no other wounds were caused, I passed the Ld test to stay in the fight. Again though I'd kept most of the firepower off of my troop choices. Blood Angel Turn 2 This turn My Vanguard arrived, nothing else, but it was enough, I used the locator beacon of the drop pod to not scatter and declared heroic intervention. The assault squad moved toward the devilfish (getting within 6 inches of it) I shot the two melta guns into it, scoring two penetrating hits, the tau got out, but due to position had to be placed around the sides as well as the back. However the devilfish itself was only stunned (as well as the smart missile system being destroyed). I charged the tau firewarriors, but due to space was informed (by the player of the orks from my last game) that as I was in base contact with the devilfish I counted as in combat with that as well as the firewarriors. Fine, The flachet discharger killed an assault marine, and my assault marines managed to kill a single tau... even footing, The Thunder Hammer proceeded to Wreck the devilfish, and I over ran the Fire Warrior Squad (having won combat) regardless of how that had gone, those fire warriors were toast. I charged the vanguard into O Shava, placing the power fist in base contact with him, O Shava killed 2 Vanguard (non power weapon marines obviously) My 20 Power weapon attacks at Initiative 5 then killed the second battle suit and a marker drone as well as taking the final battle suit down to a single wound. The non power weapon attacks killed the final drone and the priest killed the final battle suit. The power fist hit with two attacks against O Shava, wounded with both and O Shava failed both saves. The Priest and remaining sternguard marine consolidated into some cover, while the vangaurd consolidated a little closer to them, looking up at the stealth suits. Tau Turn 3 This Turn Saw the fire warriors that were on foot move a little closer to my tacticals (but were still not in 24 inch range). Same for the Gun Drone squad. The tanks all moved about quite a bit, and the Stealth squad created a firing squad aiming at my priest and sternguard marine. His shooting was pretty poor here, he did manage to kill two more assault marines, but it left two alive (a melta gun and the sergeant) they passed their leadership test. He Killed one more tactical marine leaving me down to 7 alive there. The Stealth team failed to kill either the sternguard or the priest (I allocated the two fusion wounds with a 4+ cover save to the sternguard as well as one normal save, and two normal saves to the priest) Though I did have to FnP for the priest to not die. His Stealth suits jumped backward in the assault phase but were still within easy charge range of assault troops. Blood Angel Turn 3 Dante and the Sanguinary Guard Dropped in. I placed dante and his honour guard next to the hammer head (he'd placed the hammerhead, skyray and devilfish in such a way it was impossible to get rear armour on any of them). I Then landed the Sanguinary guard next to the drop pod (so again they didn't scatter), this put them maybe 16 inches from the tau objective and behind plenty of cover. The assault squad jumped over the building and were behind a lot of LoS blocking cover, withing 6 inches of the objective also, the tau tanks on the other side of the 4' length of the board. The Vanguard jumped onto the wall infront of the stealth team. Dante and the Chapter Banner Bearer shot and wrecked the Hammerhead. The Vanguard Wiped out the Stealth team, consolidating back to the edge closest to my drop pod and priest. Game Ended At this point, my opponent Consolidated, he did have quite a good number of basic troops left (3 squads infact) but my hard hitting squads were all in placed to wipe them out very easily. All in all, I actually quite liked the list I used, I found that if luck was against me it died horribly and there wasn't much room for error, but if the averages at least came out, there was little that either player could do. I was gutted about the Ork game because it really was in a good place for me to win it, Having said that, my Ork opponent is very skilled and usually beats the rest of our gaming group. The Tau game was interesting as it was the largest points game he and I have played (at 1500, he's yet to beat my blood angels) Anyway, hope these two reports were at least semi interesting to read :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 You do know that the banner only gives +1A to the squad its in right? From your turn 3 and 4 I get the feeling you used it to give +1A to other units. Only the reroll for morale has an aura effect. I don't really see any problem with your tactics Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 urgh, yeah means I gained 5 additional attacks for the one round the Sanguinary Gaurd were alive. (I'll have to let my Ork opponent know) I got the rule confused with the Sanguinors +1 Attack Bubble. Quite glad I got so little actual benefit from it in this case then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Wow, thanks for the battle report. Lots of work gone into getting that up for us - it's appreciated. Firstly, I have to say I'm sorry for your luck. I was going to see if I could work out just how unlucky you were starting with your seven Sternguard wounds but when I realised that the odds of failing all seven armour saves followed by failing all seven of your Feel No Pain rolls is less than 0.05% (or 1 in 218,700) I decided there wasn't any point in continuing. You had the most incredible bad luck in that game. Secondly, I want to ask about your chapter banner use: you talk about a +1 attack bubble, but I don't think that's how the banner works. I don't have my Codex to hand (managed to leave it at a friend's on a night out...!) but I think it only gives +1 attack to the unit that carries it. I could be wrong, though - definitely feel free to correct me! Thirdly, I wondered why you use a close-combat Honour Guard rather than a dakka unit. Especially if you're using Dante in the unit, I would have thought it makes sense to take full advantage of his no-scatter special rule to put melta within range of a tank (infernus pistols, perhaps, to take full advantage of combat potential while still putting four melta shots on a target? I suspect that Dante in a unit of infernus pistols is about the only time I'd ever use them). Surely if you want combat from a specialist unit you should be using Vanguard Veterans instead of Honour Guard? I guess I'm mostly curious to know why you chose the Honour Guard instead of the Vanguard Veterans for a combat role. Alternatively, maybe a unit of Sanguinary Guard - though less flexible, they provide you another scoring unit, they can take the Chapter Banner if you're determined to take it, have the option of infernus pistols and - for the price you paid for your Honour Guard - could include a jump pack Sanguinary Priest. Fourthly, I was wondering if you could give a break-down of how you thought your units did, unit by unit, obviously balanced out to counter the fact that your dice rolls were just obscenely unlucky. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Ok, just got through the second report. Seems like things went much better for you this time! Glad to hear your rolls were at least averaging out, even if it didn't quite make up for the daft rolls you had in Game One. I suspect that an army as assault-heavy as Blood Angels will always fare reasonably against Tau. Did you feel that there was any danger of not winning the game once you got into combat? Presumably taking as many Vanguard Veteran Squads as possible would allow for significant reduction of incoming damage from the Tau gunline. I haven't played a Tau army yet, but I hear they crumble as soon as Space Marines get with 3" and sneeze. The biggest danger would seem to be taking fire as you cross the board and tying units up with Vanguard Veterans would mitigate that perhaps more against Tau than against any other army. I didn't really see any mention of your Tactical Squad in the second game and the first game they seemed to do little except blow themselves up and die. Would you reconsider using Tactical Squads in future lists? Something that I find rather interesting is your lack of long-range heavy fire support. Following from my thread where I ask whether Vanguard Veterans may provide the ultimate in damage mitigation I'm interested in hearing how you felt in using them and whether you felt in such a big game you were lacking in longer-range fire power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 I actually failed 6 of the 7 saves, but only had 6 sternguard left in the first game. Meaning my single save was useless. I did indeed use the chapter Banner incorrectly during the game, thankfully it only ever got to contribute to the sanguinary guards lone charge on the nob unit, so wasn't a game breaker. I'd gotten it's rule confused with the Sanguinors Rule (It is mentioned above that I did this). It never even got to be used in the Tau Game, as the unit came down and popped a vehicle, the Tau player conceding the turn after. Concerning Honour Guard As to the Honour Guard, actually an interesting subject. As you might note from my list, I actually had a large unit of Vanguard as well as a Sanguinary Guard unit as well as Dante. Now.. The Honour Guard is actually made to be more of a Defency unit for Dante. I ran him in 1500 point games with Sanguinary Guard and a priest. However Due to my regular Tau games, I've found that a 2+ save alone tend to get you deaded when you enemies have an effective 30" range plasma gun as well as broadsides etc... in our usual games he's tended to focus fire dante and co the moment they drop in. So, I decided I wanted to try running him with a unit that could improve his chances of taking out a vehicle (or tougher MEQ unit if needed) while also being able to take return fire and also dish out the good attacks in Close combat too. The Champion is the One member of the Honour Guard I'll likely make a replacement for, dropping him in favour of another infernus pistol and maybe another power weapon. It's also worth noting that not having to worry about the novitiates placement in combat is MUCH better than a normal priest, not to mention normal priests giving away kill points while the novitiate does not. I'd NEVER run dante with the vanguard, their main strength lies in dropping them in and smacking an enemy unit about quickly before the enemy can do anything about it. This was best demonstrated against the Tau, where I'd used the Sternguard as a lure, I knew it was just too tempting a target for O Shava to pass up. But I also knew my chances of a few models living were good also. O Shava is then locked in combat, allowing the vanguard to hit his unit and place the heavy hitter (fist in my case) in contact with him. Hopefully that gives some idea as to my choice in loadout for Dante's Honour Guard... the other reason is I'm actually a builder first and a gamer second, I'll get picks of my honour guard up soon, but hopefully people will agree that the look is nice. Thoughts on Units Dante Dante is a bit of a beast, there are very few characters that can stand toe to toe with him assuming Dante gets the charge and has the banner and a priest nearby, 7 attacks (with a re roll) at Strength 5 Initiative 7 ignoring saves from a WS6 Model is nothing to sniff at. In every game I've used him, he's butchered just about whatever he's attacked. This includes Slaanesh Chaos Lords, Ork Warbosses, Space Marine Commanders (including Lysander) and most other units. That being said, his lack of eternal warrior REALLY hurts, while Calgar, Logon or Azrael can deal with getting hit by a power fist, dante just crumples. This means that despite his awesome stats on a charge, he simply has to be supported and you NEED to be the one charging to avoid power fist snipers... Honour Guard Only used them in these two games, both games they did well, holding off a fully tooled out Nob Unit so that Dante could deal with the Warboss, even killing a good number of them was quite respectable. As was dropping down and between them and Dante, consistantly taking out whatever vehicle they were next to. The ability of the storm shields to soak up some of the Low AP shots that came their way, both in and out of CC was a godsend, I'll be taking them again, but as noted, the Blood Champion has yet to do anything and I do think an additional infernus pistol would be a better use of the points. Sternguard In these games, I have to admit, ther sternguard were a dubious choice, In the first game, barring my horrible bad luck, I used them poorly, i'd have been better dropping the pod where I did (as a lure for the tank bustas) while walking them on next to the tacticals, this would've given the tactical squad a fighting chance against anything that came close through extra shots (the rounds are awesome) and FnP etc. The combi flamers were rather pointless, if I'd got to shoot them against the orks, I might not be saying that, but they did essentially nothing vs the tau. I think the Locator Beacon on the Drop pod was points very well spent however, not scattering at all is still infinitely better than scattering 1d6. Priests Iffy, the second game they did pretty well, i ran the assault priest with the sanguinary guard, which means they'd be a nightmare to get off of the objective had we kept playing. The first game however... I failed so many FnPs when I REALLY needed them, and they gave away 2 extra kill points... rather easily. It is worth noting that in game 2, I didn't roll for red thirst on anything, which meant the priests actually gave a benefit, while against the orks about half my army rolled 1s for red thirst. However, there is something to be said for WS5... it was a nice boost at times. I think for other games, I'd rather drop a priest and stick with honour guard though, there really is A LOT to be said for non targetable priests... Sanguinary Guard In previous games, these have been awesome, mostly because of Dante, against small arms fire with a priest, they work great, but the low AP stuff kills them just as well as normal marines. In these two games, they were barely even a speed bump vs the nobz squad, and in game two were just slightly tougher objective sitters. If I didn't have Dante, I'd likely not take them. Tactical Squad They were poor in game one, this was mostly due to me simply forgetting to use them for half the game. In game two, they sustained a reasonable amount of fire, but didn't do a lot. BUT they do make better objective sitters than assault marines, In Smaller games I've found them to compliment assault squads nicely (assault squad moves in while tacticals covering fire, once the asault squad has the enemy unit in combat the tacticals run into the objective). I don't much like plasma weapons If I'm honest, and usualy use a rocket launcher and melta gun along with a power sword for my tactical squad, it just feels more versatile. Regular Assault Squad These guys were good both games, They held off an over half strength ork mob, killed a good number of other orks earning me 1.5 of my 6 kill points, not bad for a squad nearly half the cost of the vanguard :) In game two they suffered from having no priest (he wasn't allowed to start with the squad due to deployment stipulations) But made their points back by taking out a kitted out devilfish and a full fire warrior squad, with models left to sit with the sanguinary guard on the objective too. Vanguard Honestly? I'm undecided, I refuse to put stormshields on them, it's all about getting that one perfect charge with Vanguard really... 5 power weapons was probably enough, and the power fist was a must, perhaps I'd drop a marine and take another fist and weapon in later games however. Thing was, in game 1, when their main target was denied to them, they were of far less use, they still *did* charge the nobz, but by then it was a nearly dead unit anyway. On the other hand in the game against the tau, I used them against the Tau players special close combat character (Initiative 5, WS 5, Strength 5 with a power weapon and 4 attacks on his profile). Obliterating the squad, even with their 4+ invulnerables... was satisfying and demoralising for the tau player too. Summary Dante remains fun, and I do think he works better with honour guard than sanguinary guard. I also think that putting him in a shooty squad... is fine for one round, but honestly, you're wasting his awesome combat potential. It's rare that you'll need more than 3 melta shots on rear (or even side) armour of a vehicle. I still love the Sternguard, despite the way they worked out in these two games. But I do think, they belong in a list with Tycho, not Dante. Vanguard are nice, but if their charge is thwarted... they become over priced assault marines, yes they may have power weapons or whatever else, but honestly if lucks against you and you're stuck after charging 4 or 5 models with power weapons can still kill next to nothing. I'd never field less than 10 assault marines in a unit, mostly because I believe in fluffy 10 man squads (except veterans, which less than 10 makes a lot of sense). But Assault squads really do shine in our armies if supported well (or if you choose rubbish targets like tau :devil: ) Edit Yeah the tacticals were mostly used in game two to hold the objective, they took a few casualties, and actually did damge two tanks that game (forgot to mention) Usually I use tactical squads in rhinos, but didn't have the points this game. as to long range fire support, not really if I'm honest... Against the Orks, Mid Range Firesupport wouldve been nice, my original list I'd planned to use had two Baal Preditors. Against the Tau, as you pointed out, assuming you can get close, they're done for. It must be said though, that Tau have some great shooty abilities and can be rather manouveurable. marker lights are horrible things (increasing their BS, reducing your Ld, Reducing Cover Saves or even firing missiles that don't need line of sight!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Comprehensive response, brother, thanks! Really interesting read. Regards medium-range fire support, that's what I'd probably focus my Honour Guard on. With a dedicated Novitiate attached to the squad, four plasma guns are significantly less likely to damage my troops and I can kit them with bolt pistols and plasma guns to give them close-combat potential should they need it. It frustrates me that the Vanguard Veterans can't be used with Dante. Heroic Intervention essentially says that the troops are really good at arriving where they're needed when they're needed, but that characters are too incompetent to make use of the rule. Really, Games Workshop? Commander Dante, Lord of the Blood Angels, the oldest living Space Marine not encased in Dreadnought armour, most respected of Chapter Commanders, who is capable of massive tactical subtlety, who can strike so suddenly and so quickly that the stunned enemy can't prevent him disengaging from combat, who is so competent in his use of a jump pack that he can arrive precisely where he's needed with no danger of being even slightly off-target, slows down the Vanguard Veterans? Right then. It's good to know that the Assault Squads were as good for you as they have been for me in my few games. They really are going to be the backbone of my army. I can't imagine creating a Blood Angel army that didn't focus entirely on the Assault Squads. I'm interested in running the Vanguard Veterans in five-man squads with no upgrade other than a power fist. For taking on combat units in the midfield, I'll probably commit my plasma-gunning Honour Guard and an Assault Squad, but the Vanguard Veteran's ability to drop onto a Long Fangs Squad or similar and tie them up is invaluable. I think, though, that they do it best with as little equipment as possible, partly because they aren't completely reliable. If things go horribly wrong, I'm not committing too many points to the unit that I'm almost forced to deep-strike in order to use effectively. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 I certainly see the reasoning behind plasma gunner honour guard, I just don't think Dante is the HQ to put them with :devil: You want the unit he's with to pack enough of a punch to properly back him up, and you also want them to not get killed. Trust me, every game I've used Dante, every opponent I've had has made it their missing to take down the squad, I'd either use him in a RAS and just go with numbers being on his side, or with my Honour guard. Also of note, mid range fire support from 2 Baals is generally better than Mid range fire support from the Honour guard you suggest, and two baals is actually only a little more expensive (235 for the Honour Guard vs 280 - 290 for two baals) The honour guard have AP2 guns, it's true, but even with a priest one MIGHT kill himeslf, infact if I'd had a game like my first, you could almost guarentee it. The Baals are either short range AP3 flamers (plus some normal heavy flamers if wanted) Which will cause havok with most armies, or Mid Range Fire Support putting out 20 shots between the two tanks. 8 of which are rerollable and rending. IF I used Plasma Honour Guard, Id have em on foot and put them in a razorback probably. Part of my dogged instistance on using Tactical squads is this: Fluff wise, yes we have lots of jump packs, but we still follow the codex and our battle companies are 6 tactical squads and only 2 assault and Devastator squads. My miniatures will be an apocalypse Battle company when I'm done, which obviously means I have a surplus of tactical squads for small games compared to assault squads. (infact the next unit I'm building is the 4 rocket launcher devastator squad - which will provide some nice long range shootyness to most of my lists) I have this view of vanguard as being a surgical tool, Id rather tempt squads to charge cheaper units than get my vanguard bogged down... the ork game shows what can happen to vanguard that get bogged down. Hit them fast and hard, ideally leaving nothing behind. (for example, my sternguard tactic in game two... id generally use the vanguard exactly as I used them in that game, sternguard held up the unit, vanguard drop in and butcher them) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 I enjoyed both reports. Unfortunately sometimes luck can be cruel. The good thing is it will come back later on your side again in a big way as things in general have a way of evening out over the long run. G :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232955-two-2000-point-battles/#findComment-2803285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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