Levitas Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Did anyone catch this article on BoLs? 'Remembering who we are' by HERO. If not worth a read so go check it out to get the full picture. Hero takes a look at how armies are played in comparison to how they are represented in both the fluff and the writers intention. Wolves have become somewhat notorious spammers, and he uses the below example as well as ones from Blood Angels and Guard. "How Space Wolves are meant to be played: Courage, honor and a glorious death in the battlefield Frost axe to the face, aggression, adrenaline-pumped melee Prefer the crucible of melee with ranged support Mighty warriors, epic sagas, tales of greatness and glory How they are being played: Max Long Fangs and Razorbacks Min melee, max long-range firepower, are we playing Wolves or Tau? Individually configed Thunderwolves for the purpose of wound allocation Inexcusable and lazy bunker sitting pups, no epic sagas4u" In all honesty I am guilty as charged to long fangs spam, razorbacks and TWcav wound allocation. But then the above units are so good that they have no competition for places, and the newer dexes are just as powerful and encourage spam. It did get me thinking of how I could retain the power of my list but get it back to a list that Russ would be proud of. Maybe we are using too many rocket fangs and razor backs? What do you guys think? Guilty as charged? or innocent of our spamming ways? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I claim innocence (and Karamazov can stick it up his pooper if he has anything to say). I don't use Razorbacks or Thunderwolves of any sort (Lords or Cavalry). In fact, I don't even own any. I have two Long Fang packs, but they're different from the norm. One is 5 Heavy Bolters purely for kicks, and I only field if I have the 115 points to spare. The other is 2 Multi-Meltas and 3 Missiles that are given Relentless by Logan to support my Loganwing army. Do I spam units? Sure, if taking multiple packs of Grey Hunters is considered spamming. Coupled with Wolf Guard and/or characters, all my packs hit 10-strong and mounted in Rhinos or a Drop Pod. Play-style is heavy mech, close with the enemy and use mid-to-close range suppressive fire and clean-up in combat. Focus is on objectives, and not necessarily wiping out the enemy (so a reliance less on smashy-smash power and more on tactical maneuverings). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Did anyone catch this article on BoLs? 'Remembering who we are' by HERO. If not worth a read so go check it out to get the full picture. Hero takes a look at how armies are played in comparison to how they are represented in both the fluff and the writers intention. Wolves have become somewhat notorious spammers, and he uses the below example as well as ones from Blood Angels and Guard. "How Space Wolves are meant to be played: Courage, honor and a glorious death in the battlefield Frost axe to the face, aggression, adrenaline-pumped melee Prefer the crucible of melee with ranged support Mighty warriors, epic sagas, tales of greatness and glory How they are being played: Max Long Fangs and Razorbacks Min melee, max long-range firepower, are we playing Wolves or Tau? Individually configed Thunderwolves for the purpose of wound allocation Inexcusable and lazy bunker sitting pups, no epic sagas4u" In all honesty I am guilty as charged to long fangs spam, razorbacks and TWcav wound allocation. But then the above units are so good that they have no competition for places, and the newer dexes are just as powerful and encourage spam. It did get me thinking of how I could retain the power of my list but get it back to a list that Russ would be proud of. Maybe we are using too many rocket fangs and razor backs? What do you guys think? Guilty as charged? or innocent of our spamming ways? Are we talking about specific tourney lists here or stereotypying SWs? If the army list in question is a Stelek type min sized razorwolf list with maxed out missile LFs then yeah I see the point. But if you run TWC as your core unit it seems you pretty much meet all the listed criteria of how they "should" be played and accusing SWs of wound allocation seems nitpicky at that point. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with true SWs using Long Fangs. Space wolves aren't mindless close combat berserkers of Chaos...there is tactical merit in covering your advancing force with ranged support. I clearly recall Long Fangs providing cover fire in space wolf novels I have read including the most recent Battle of the Fang. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 utter nonsense! a wolf lord adapts, plain and simple. if you need to move through a bottleneck you'll use transports to move your packs, etc... there's only one way the wolves should be played, and that's by using the SW codex and no other dex, no matter how shiny the toys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 i have seen a trend towards running lots of long fangs and thunderwolves when really the wolves should be about lots of GH, some BC and led by a lord and his wolf guard...sad really...:) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 *shrugs* I dont see any of the above applying to alot of SW armies, but the rumors I hear of on the internets would support it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Durendal Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Apparently having unique TWC all armed different, and having WG in GH packs all armed differently is "not wolfy". Nor is, I guess, having Lone Wolves run around and smash face, or a Thunderlord. I guess to be "true" wolves we need max GH and BC packs running around on foot, backed up by a Rune Priest, a Wolf Lord in a Raider with Termy guard, and maybe a pack or 2 of LFs who somehow didn't bring all the right tools to the fight and decided on a mix-mash from the armory, even though they're old and know better. le sigh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levitas Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Apparently having unique TWC all armed different, and having WG in GH packs all armed differently is "not wolfy". Nor is, I guess, having Lone Wolves run around and smash face, or a Thunderlord. I guess to be "true" wolves we need max GH and BC packs running around on foot, backed up by a Rune Priest, a Wolf Lord in a Raider with Termy guard, and maybe a pack or 2 of LFs who somehow didn't bring all the right tools to the fight and decided on a mix-mash from the armory, even though they're old and know better. le sigh Exactly! Well said. While I see where Hero is coming from with his article, I think as concerns us wolves he is a lil off and being unfair. I've noticed that most opponents really hate long fangs and will target them quickly and early. I think people are just tired of seeing them as they get dominated in the shooting and assault phase by a good wolf army. We are not Tau, but you do see a lot of wolf lists line up with Long Fangs. As for razorbacks they are part of all space marines chapters so dont see what the big deal is there. The codex fluff likens our rhinos to the long boats fenrisians use, plus every other army is mech now. As for wound allocation on Thunder Wolves its actually fluffy, as Wolves are fiercely different, hence we cant equip our HQs the same! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I've got well over 3,000 points of fully painted Space Wolves, but I don't own any Razorbacks, or any Thunderwolves. Out of my 10 Long Fangs, only 1 is armed with a Missile Launcher. Out of 5 full packs of Grey Hunters, only 2 packs are equipped alike. For characters, I have 1 Wolf Lord, 1 Rune Priest, and 1 Wolf Priest. I'm pretty sure HERO isn't talking about me. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 So a Legion that recognises, nay embraces individualism means everyone has to be armed the same in a TWC or WG pack? I also understand where he's coming from, have a single razorback and only one missile launcher among the Long Fang packs I own, but life it just too short to get upset about how people play with their toys... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Personally I like the spirit of this post and think this is all about whether people play a specific list "type" irrespective of the army they are playing - just because they think it will win. Yes, we can make a very good "sit at the back and shoot a LOT" armies - but is this really what Wolves are all about? I don't think so. I'm not really a "fluff" person, I dont know enough about the background, but I do know enough about the spirit of the Wolves to play a "proper" wolf army. Combat is right up there - lets face it. OK they aren't insane berserkers - and they use good tactics; but choosing an army specifically to avoid combat and go for shooting is not what we are all about. Complaining about anything else (like using TWC, or wound allocation) is a little too far - but we all know the gist of what Hero is saying. Like I said in a recent post ... I'm no fan of YTTH armies. They may be "tactically better" ... I don't know. But it isn't a proper Wolf army imho - at least not in spirit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Durendal Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 You also have to factor in personal preference, taste, fluff, etc. For example my wolves are based off of the Varangian Guard in European history, as well as a back story I wrote which basically says they've been away from the Fang operating on their own for so long, and suffered so many losses, that all the BC's are now Greys (intermixed with surviving Greys), many of the Greys that survived are Long Fangs, and due to losses there are very few WG (in my 2K list....3 only) and of course there's a Lone Wolf. As for the historical piece, LF's represent the Archers/ballistae used by the Byzantines, the TWC are the Kataphractoi, and the Greys represent the crazed Varangian Guard. Sure some would say I spammed Greys and Fangs, but it fits a historical and fluff theme and makes sense. Plus I make enough unit and model distinctions to show how every pack is unique. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donutzot Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I play as russ intended me to play exept the wound allocation on the thunderwolves. oh and I use alot of skyclaws Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I'm not sure I really know what HERO is talking about. Around here I've been the resident wolf player going on eight years and I've kept my list pretty much the same (though it has evolved over time). lots of troops, long range back-up, was a ven dread and predator now is a squad of long fangs and a razorback, rhinos for the Hunters and lately a Redeemer too. My army doesn't walk, who wants to walk into battle, not me!! I drive up, jump out and bring the pain. yeah things can be spammed but how are the TWC not wolfy? especially if they are all different. Honestly I don't see a single thing in our codex that isn't wolfy except land speeders, but you don't see anyone bitching if someone uses a tonne of them cuz they can be killed easily and is just doing your opponent a favor by not fully utilizing your points toward your strengths. Thats just haters hating. and haters will always hate on the things that kick thier :cusss in the dirt. I've heard all this before only before it was how we get all the SM gear at a lower cost and can put an ass. cannon on a battle leader. Boo hoo. Its not our fault our codex was a pamphet for a decade and its not our fault they took long fangs from over-priced and useless to cheap and awesome. Overcome and adapt or die and shut up!!! G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olgerth Istaarn Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 HERO's article reminds me of the (supposed) lamentations of the samurai during the period when the firearms were introduced into Japan. Certainly, two guys with swords jumping around yelling "kiaaaaaa" and chopping each other is a lot more romantic than a guy with a rifle shooting another guy in the face. But sooner or later, most people figure out that shooting people in the face is a lot more efficient than chopping and yelling "kiaaaaaa". "Losing is part of the fun" only holds up for so long. People with fluffy armies built with no regard for power tend to get beat. Sure, you can have your own guidelines (i.e. I refuse to do razorwolves), but sooner or later you'll have to account for what works in a game and what doesn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 "Losing is part of the fun" only holds up for so long. People with fluffy armies built with no regard for power tend to get beat. Sure, you can have your own guidelines (i.e. I refuse to do razorwolves), but sooner or later you'll have to account for what works in a game and what doesn't. I totally agree, part of the skill of WH40k is choosing an army which works. I think you can do this and keep a good assault element though, I've got to see my Wolves doing well in combat ... it's just part of their nature for me. On a side note ... you can't "spam" Grey Hunters in my opinion. They are our troops ... there should be loads of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Seems to me that HERO is just bitter gamer fed up with the tournament scene. Here is the problem though, this is a game that each mission has victory conditions, ie, how to win. Min/max players are in every single genre of games, so there should be no surprise that they are in Warhammer 40k. They are going to mathhammer the units until they can find winning combination regardless what length the codex goes to explain the history and fluff of the army. Now what it seems like is that HERO needs to find a tournament scene that encourages fluff competition. Maybe a cosplay/fluff tournament where it isnt about winning or even losing, but how well you represent the army that you are playing in the eyes of the judges. However, even then the genuineness of how well the player stuck to the theme is subjective to what the judge feels is the army theme. And why bother even calling the person a player but instead a presenter. My basic 1750pt list: Thunderlord Rune Priest GH x10, rhino GH x10, rhino GH x10, rhino Fenrisian wolves Long Fang x6, razorback Long Fang x6, razorback Then I pick and choose what I feel like playing as my "harden" unit: dreads x2 or TWC or WGTDA or Lone Wolves/Scouts or Thunderpriests I have no problem threading my list into the fluff of the codex and now that I think about it, I don't really care if a person that is tired of the tournament scene builds expresses that to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levitas Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Whats interesting is that when I first read the codex I built a list that was very fluffy and diverse. Expecting the spirit of the wolves to carry me through to glory in an ale soaked tale of victory. A las... I was face punched. So I had to evolve my list and I think most space wolf players find the same route to what works best and what is competitive. So you get a lot of lists that contain the same elements. Nothing is quite as effective as long fangs and they are criminally cheap. If I want a fluffy experience now I read a novel. Playing a hodge-podge list on the table just hands me a swift defeat, and who honestly enjoys loosing? There is no divide between fluffy players and competitive tournament players, just one rule book we all share. It's maybe an outdated 40k code of honor that harks back to 1st ed Rogue Trader that Hero is wanting. Plus the horrors that Matt Ward has unleashed on the tables means we have to turn up in a suit ready for business or get psi-cannoned off the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Well, as many know, I play true to the fluff, hence why I always have Ragnar with Blood Claws supported by two GH squads in armoured support. Plus, for a fun-based tournament later this year, I'm going with Drop Pod spam for Planetstrike games :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I'm glad someone finally had the balls to call abusive SW players out on it. You know how aggressive a pissed off space wolf can be. Though in more recent days they are more likely to shoot you from behind cover like a Raptor or Son of Medusa instead of rip your arms off. I can only imagine the glittery Chris Crocker outbursts of hurt feelings by abusive Blood Angels players though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I own a lot of Missile Launchers. Why? Not to do with the fact they're effective, but because the Missile Launcher is synonymous with 1st edition heavy weapons. All my MLs are either origninal RT01 box set ones (I lost 4 of those when I sent a unit of long fangs to the studio as a part of a job application, I got down to the final 3, but never got my long fangs back) or they're forge world ones. My SW fluff pre-dates the current mythos and I play my SW how *I* want to play them as long as it's within the confines of the codex. Hmmm... planning an army exactly how you as you want it, independent and headstrong, making the most of the tools at your disposal, iwth flagrant disregard for what others might think... Which chapter would do something like that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I have felt the codexes since 3rd have not quite matched the fluff with a counter attack playstyle suggested and told to us by both the last two codexes not really clicking with the viking ethos. But if you accept the fluff about us being a counterattack army which is stated in the codexes . Then i dont see a problem i see a lot more hybrid builds in SW armies than do for any of the other marine lists put together. I mean all the BT ,BA and codex lists seems very unvaried just mech spam all the way. The tournaments i played dont seem to just have razorwolves i think i see more hybrid builds( I'm with Grey mage i see it on the internet more than the table maybe this razorspam is a american thing). Thunderwolves taking different equipment is fluffy AND powerful ALWAYS A NICE COMBO I mean if you look at the BA armies round here you would think there are no tacticals or devs or even jump packs in the BA chapter At least our builds are built around GH our most common troop type. If there are more LF's than GH then thats unfluffy but i cant recall seeing a list like that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 So, Leman Russ wouldn't send multiple units of his best warriors to tackle the enemy? :P I don't like any hamstringing or suggestion of hamstringing. If the codex allows me to play it, I'll play. For me variety is the spice of life. Keep things nice, simple and "stupid". That said, I do like campaigns and fluffy story elements at the local clubs. I just don't want anyone telling me how I should run my army. (and after all that is in the spirit of Russ :P ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 i've dropped from tournies a long time ago, disgusted by the lengths some people will go to win a game. my dedication to the fluff and actually enjoying the game made me create a small group of like minded gamers in the area. We actually vote in people that would contribute something useful to the group, whether it be a new type of army, terrain, gaming space. but the core requirement is they have to be fun to play against. i dont get as many games in as i used to, but i enjoy just about every game i get in now. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I like the idea of voting in players, WLK. It keeps power gamers out and fluffy players in. Maybe we shall adopt that in my group. Whenever they get back from LDACistan... We havent played in forever :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233122-remembering-who-we-are/#findComment-2805602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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