Remembering who we are

[Roland Durendal]

I like the idea of voting in players, WLK. It keeps power gamers out and fluffy players in.

 

 

Maybe we shall adopt that in my group. Whenever they get back from LDACistan...

 

We havent played in forever :)

 

 

Oh man LDACistan! Haha haven't heard that since my days as a Cadet. Oh to be young and in college again and not a bitter Army CPT.

[Valerian]

I like the idea of voting in players, WLK. It keeps power gamers out and fluffy players in.

 

 

Maybe we shall adopt that in my group. Whenever they get back from LDACistan...

 

We havent played in forever :(

 

 

Oh man LDACistan! Haha haven't heard that since my days as a Cadet. Oh to be young and in college again and not a bitter Army CPT.

 

Back in my day, it was simply called "Advanced Camp" ;

 

On-topic: I like that idea of voting members in. Unfortunately, I don't have a gaming group, so I have to take what games I can get in at the LGS.

 

V

[Roland Durendal]

The only issue I see with voting players in is it makes the group...elitist...and rather small. It also can lead to stagnation as you'll rarely get new blood, new ideas, and new armies in.

 

I figure so long as when you pay a game, the person across from you knows it's a fun game (vs a practice game for a tourney for example) all is fine.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@roland durendal: small yes, elitist...yes also. no matter how you address it it can come across as elitist, so its always better to accept it.

if gamers, or even people in general, could agree on a abstract concept such a "what is fun", then something like this wouldnt never be a solution. but being all fallible and such we cant.

"Johnny" like to win as fast as possible. he wants to destroy his opponent as efficiently as possible with as little spend resources as possible. In the real war, such dedication is commendable. In the world of little plastic men, that is, in my opinion, a waste of time.

I want to buy, build, paint and play the game in a fun and casual enviroment. just this weekend i had 4 games against my regular opponent. we started the day off watching resident evil while we gamed. then resident evil 2. then land of the dead. then finished with resident evil 4. we got 4 games in where we both enjoyed the game and the atmosphere. we learned the dos and dont of dark eldar, and spent the time between games eating pizza commentating on what worked on didnt work in the army. to keep things from getting stale, we have all started non-powered armored armies. now we have a guard army, 2 tau armies and a dark eldar to play against.

 

all of this has been impossible at my local store. the recent increase in player who want to win means alot of leaf blowing guard, TH+SS marines, grey knights who'll jump to the next shiny codex, razorspam wolves and other such unsavory habits has me selecting those i WANT to game with and inviting them into my home. we still visit local stores every month or so, just to see if any new players joined, catch up with people, and to get outside thoughts in.

 

i think it is important that people remember that playing a w40k game is a two player event, in which both players want to have a good time. if you cant accept that simple sentence (not targeted at you), then i hope you'll find the fiun you are looking for, but not with me.

 

WLK

[Roland Durendal]

I agree WLK, my main thing is so long as both players know before hand and agree to the type of game to be played, there shouldn't be any issues of my fluffy Elysian force facing off some Razrospam list. Know what I mean? That's how I play it. I talk to my friends before hand, we figure out what type of game we want to play (fun/relaxed or tourney practice or tourney-esque) and then go from there. So long as we all know what type of game to expect, both of us have fun and there are no issues.

[lothbrok]

when i play i just want to have fun win or loss (mostly the latter :cuss ) i dont really care so long as the game is fun. As such i really hate seeing someone who just plays squad after squad or long fangs with just the bear minimum of everything else, it just violates the spirit of the game for me and takes all the fun out of it.

 

i'm not saying that using longfangs razorbacks or thunderwolves is some evil practice, just that using nothing else is boring and unimaginative in my opinion.

[Blacksad]

when I started out, I had 2 units of bloodclaws as troops, a unit of terminator wolfguard with a mix of ranged and CC power, and a landraider (and Njal)

 

in other words, the least playable mix of units out there. Started upgrading my army to include the win-units, then (and now still) working on getting EVERYTHING in our codex. sure, I sometimes field 3 units of long fangs, sure, I sometimes field multiple razorbacks, but I still field those bloodclaws, I sometimes field swiftclaws or skyclaws, I field fenrisian wolves more often than not (and down here, people actualy make those wolves a priority target!)

 

with our codex, you have so many options, I find it silly to not want to try them all.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I agree WLK, my main thing is so long as both players know before hand and agree to the type of game to be played, there shouldn't be any issues of my fluffy Elysian force facing off some Razrospam list. Know what I mean? That's how I play it. I talk to my friends before hand, we figure out what type of game we want to play (fun/relaxed or tourney practice or tourney-esque) and then go from there. So long as we all know what type of game to expect, both of us have fun and there are no issues.

 

we do the same, in our little group. we have a few i would call power gamers, but no WAAC gamers. thereis a difference.

 

every once in a while we do tear into each other, but only when we tell each other ahead of time. this type of coordination is difficult to do during pick up games though...

 

WLK

[Hfran Morkai]

Hmm...

 

A planned two packs of Long Fangs in an Apocalypse sized force, with only three Missile Launchers.

 

No Razorbacks.

 

No planned Thunderwolf Cavalry (Unless GW release some amazing sculpts).

 

Heavvily Infantry Focused.

 

No Pack or Character equipped the same.

 

I think I'm fairly innocent.

[Roland Durendal]

I agree WLK, my main thing is so long as both players know before hand and agree to the type of game to be played, there shouldn't be any issues of my fluffy Elysian force facing off some Razrospam list. Know what I mean? That's how I play it. I talk to my friends before hand, we figure out what type of game we want to play (fun/relaxed or tourney practice or tourney-esque) and then go from there. So long as we all know what type of game to expect, both of us have fun and there are no issues.

 

we do the same, in our little group. we have a few i would call power gamers, but no WAAC gamers. thereis a difference.

 

every once in a while we do tear into each other, but only when we tell each other ahead of time. this type of coordination is difficult to do during pick up games though...

 

WLK

 

Oh yeah definitely agree. Our gaming group is slowly growing with a wide range of players/skill levels/armies and most of us work/know each other and play regularly, so for us it just comes down to coordination. Saves us the hassle of the random pickup game at the local store.

[commander alexander]

I'm guilty of Long Fang spam, but I send my troops into the thick of it, always have, always will. Pod in, flame, charge and win.

"We shall fall from the skies like volcanic shower, and burst forth spewing flame as of it were from the mouth of the Fire Wolf itself! For Grimblood, for the Great wolf, and for Russ!"

 

And I have to admit, this is a different objection than I usually face. You get no end of dirty looks and sighs were I play if you bring some "beardy" or "cheesy" list.

 

Oh, and noooooo, absolutely, no M. launcher spam. Oh how I loath them.

[skoll]

meh my lists vary on how im feeling but lately its been a 2 grey hunter squads in rhinos and 2 ML LF squads core + a LR with wolf guard termies + whatever other tricks i can fit in the list.

 

normally ragnar and wolf priest...often arjack as well. I play as an assault army with good fire support from long fang squads not as a shooty army with melee as an after thought.

 

after all it is good to see the foe die first hand.

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

For those who want a good laugh here is the original posting

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/06/40k...who-we-are.html

 

I for one think that this syndrome is a result of too many hands in the soup. Get certain guys back in the game and they will set it right.

 

I read the 4chan wiki on Matt Ward and had to get new underwear and keyboard.

[commander alexander]

Wow, the picture he posted does some it up really well..... We lost our beards :D Well, at least according to him, those that go with maximum firepower spam. I also believe this is a matter of opinion, as are most things in this game. Wolves are finally able to lay down some serious firepower, let each be to their own, and play how they like it. Just take more pride in your own sagas, where the enemy could feel your breath upon them before you snuffed their life with blade and the strength of your arms.

[Beef]

Well i have retained my beard both figurativly and literally.

[Stormwulf133]

Hmm I am guilty of the long fangs, but i never hit anything with them anyway. Other than that I just take what ever I find appealing at the time. I am struggling with my own fluff vs official fluff/paint scheme...but I still try to play true to the wolves.

[Prot]

There are two issues I have with the article.

 

The first one is it's a typical internet article. You can't take these things as gospel. We all have access to the internet and a keyboard. Any one can fire up a blog and start spouting their gospel. This is one gamer's take on it... not necessarily the truth.

 

Secondly, *if* what he is saying is true (which I don't think it is) is this the fault of the player? Or is this the fault of the codex writer? Should Saga's perhaps be a stronger theme in a typical Wolves list? Perhaps, but the codex doesn't make it fit easy, nor give you a motivator to fullfill it properly. If you write a poor rule, people won't use it. If you write a good one, people use it. It's that simple but blaming the player is hardly the right way to go about it. (Some) Tournament goers, especially the way they've been run in the last 5 years will take the short route, every time.

 

Finally I have to say I hate the 5 Razorback, triple Longfang army. It really puts me off. I refuse to play it, but on the other hand if the alternative is getting pasted by -the next- guy I play with a ramped up, repetitive list, then what choice do you have in a tournament?

 

Also the article's idea that TWC are the height of Space Wolves' units is ridiculous. Only fools and noobs don't know what these things do, and they are not even close to the strongest units to use in a tournament format. (If you guys have seen my debate on using this unit in the modern scene, and all my lists in the lists section, you know how fickle this unit has been for me.)

 

I play Thunder Wolf Calvary because they ARE fluffy and I'm not going to let the latest internet jibber jabber from one dude change that. (and don't tell me they aren't fluffy because one guy has a pistol and the other has a melta bomb. Ridiculous.)

[commander alexander]

The internet, made for access to information, and expressing opinions. Like I said earlier, it's a game so each to his own on how they would like to play it. On second thought, why do we even post up these topics and contribute to them? I'm sure there's already half a dozen of them just in this forum. :huh:

[Decoy]

Hm. I think I am both guilty and not guilty. You be the judges.

 

 

 

Army Style: Sunwolf's Dawn

 

HQs

Ragnar

Rune Priest

Rune Priest

 

Elites

6x Wolf Guard w/ MotW, Frostblade or LCs (in any various combinations), all split off into Grey Hunter squads

 

Troops

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Plasma, WGPL, Lasplas Razor

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Plasma, WGPL, Lasplas Razor

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Plasma, MotW, Banner, WGPL, Lasplas Razor

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Plasma, MotW, Banner, WGPL, Lasplas Razor

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Flamer, MotW, WGPL, Lasplas Razor

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Flamer, MotW, WGPL, Banner, Lasplas Razor

 

Heavy

6x Long Fangs, 5x Plasmacannon, Sarge, Lasplas Razor

6x Long Fangs, 5x Plasmacannon, Sarge, Lasplas Razor

6x Long Fangs, 5x Plasmacannon, Sarge, Lasplas Razor

 

 

ENTIRELY a footslogging list, with a big blob of Wolves rushing up the gut to take a position in the center of the table and bring the Sunwolf's Gaze to all who oppose them. They're capable of assaulting, counterassaulting, defending, and with Razorbacks running target intereference around the blob of Greys, it's hard for an opponent to draw an accurate bead on the majority of the force. (once I broke formation to park two Razorbacks -right- in front of an enemy Vindicator. Hehe...)

 

 

So what say you, Fang? Broken and unfluffy?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

in my opinion, broken and unfluffy.

 

you call it a foot slogging list, but arm every squad with gun transports. you replace missile spam with extreme plasma spam, and make up for the S8 of the missiles with the 9 razorback lascannons. and everything smaller than a LR can be hurt by plasma. the 2 flamer packs does little to make up for the hate. and no blood claws in a rags list. the only thing your missing is spammed Lone Wolves

the two priests are probably both casting LL, the 2nd power isnt needed.

 

i would absolutely hate to see such a army deployed across from me.

 

again, all my opinion. (since you asked and all)

 

WLK

[Decoy]

in my opinion, broken and unfluffy.

 

you call it a foot slogging list, but arm every squad with gun transports. you replace missile spam with extreme plasma spam, and make up for the S8 of the missiles with the 9 razorback lascannons. and everything smaller than a LR can be hurt by plasma. the 2 flamer packs does little to make up for the hate. and no blood claws in a rags list. the only thing your missing is spammed Lone Wolves

the two priests are probably both casting LL, the 2nd power isnt needed.

 

i would absolutely hate to see such a army deployed across from me.

 

again, all my opinion. (since you asked and all)

 

WLK

 

 

Hehe! True enough. However, my point I was attempting to make is that certain elements, not of an army but of wargear, are seen as "unfluffy". How is a mechanized Wolf force favoring Plasma weaponry considered unfluffy, but a Wolf force that favors Frost Blades/Powerweapons considered fluffy? There are at least two known current Wolf Lords who favor armored assaults. There are two who heavily favor the use of flamers. There are some that operate within the realm of Grey Hunters, and others (like Ragnar) who utlize Blood Claws more often. Were the Plasmas replaced with Flamers, this force could potentially be seen as Fluffy; replace Lasplas with Heavy Flamers on the Razors, and again, more fluff.

 

The issue at hand is not the composition, but the implementation. Flamers are seen as fluffy in terms of certain Wolf Lords, but more than not, they are considered "unbroken" because they do not have AP2 or armor-breaking Strength. What your objections to the proposed army list are, WLK, consist almost entirely of complaints about the actual -weapons- they carry. All high-STR, low-AP weapons. The one complaint you genuinely had was that Ragnar was leading Greys and no Blood Claws, and that was effectively the only real complaint about army structure that you had.

 

 

For reference, my -actual- army list normally uses Logan instead of Ragnar, and in terms of Rune Priest powers, they "spam" Storm Caller, with one having LL and the other MH. However, the Greys with Flamers are instead equipped with Plasmaguns, and I normally march two full squads of Wolf Guard alongside the Greys, with two more Lasplas Razors.

 

 

Ultimately, what people see as "broken" boils down to "powerful." Why should a themed army, such as a Wolf list based around the Sunwolf, be considered any less "fluffy" than a list based entirely around Flamers, or Mark of the Wulfen, or around an armored spearhead? Because the same people who complain of "Brokenness" or "unfluffiness" are those who would be most affected by the power of the various themes. I've been using a basis around the Sunwolf even when I played 13th, and before that, 3rd Edition Long Fangs. When Plasmacannons were nerfed, I kept playing them. When 4+ Cover everywhere nerfed my army, I kept playing them. Why? Because I love the very notion of the Sunwolf and its characterization in the Wolf fluff. To a Fenrisian tribesman, the sun is lifegiver, and lifetaker; it could, arguably, be seen as a God on its own right.

 

 

Let me ask you this, WLK. Aside from the use of Plasma, and substituting Grimnar instead of Ragnar, what are your objections to the list, without mentioning wargear?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i would say the lack of originality in the list is my biggest objection.

 

this army might be called space wolves, but can be copied and pasted into virtually every other marine army out there without losing much punch. there is nothing in this list that says Space Wolves to me.

following this, this "powerful" army is simply that, powerful. it doesnt allow two people the chance to have a real fun game (IMO). instead it tells your opponent that i am going to sit at range and make you pick up models as my enjoyment of the game means screwing you. and in certain circles that might be called a fair trade (if they run something as broken/powerful as you do), but i dont see the point of playing. if you want to truely play a game that is so bland, try mine sweeper.

 

if i were to build a armor list, i would include a few vindi/pred tanks, maybe sprinkle in a land raider. actual pieces of space marine armor and not just spamming the rides.

 

taking nothing but plasma and claiming its fluffy ignores the fluff that plasma is actually a rare and specialized weapon in the Imperium, as the tech to reliably create the weapons are dubious at best.

 

WLK

[Decoy]

i would say the lack of originality in the list is my biggest objection.

 

In what regard? Are not Grey Hunters the most common Wolf? Certainly more fluffy than, say, any army with more than one Wolf Lord. (In case you haven't picked up on it, I'm going all Devil's Advocate here.)

 

this army might be called space wolves, but can be copied and pasted into virtually every other marine army out there without losing much punch. there is nothing in this list that says Space Wolves to me.

 

Ah, there's the rub. No other army -can- do this, except maybe Nurgle. If no other army in the game can pull off this build, then ... it's pretty much a Wolf exclusive, isn't it? It is defined as Space Wolves. Never mind the Mark of the Wulfen as a countermeasure, the utilization of WGPL as an eleven-man squad, the way it is played (as a tactical anvil, capable of taking a huge amount of damage in return for dishing out even more), or as completely fitting to the style of hunting that actual Wolves utilize. You are discounting the "fluff" of the army simply because you disagree with the build, less the motivation behind it.

 

following this, this "powerful" army is simply that, powerful. it doesnt allow two people the chance to have a real fun game (IMO). instead it tells your opponent that i am going to sit at range and make you pick up models as my enjoyment of the game means screwing you. and in certain circles that might be called a fair trade (if they run something as broken/powerful as you do), but i dont see the point of playing. if you want to truely play a game that is so bland, try mine sweeper.

 

Again, is it? You look at the list and presume "Shooty", but what you don't know is that the entire army, save -maybe- a Long Fang squad, is almost always on the footslogging move. I rarely stop and shoot, and almost always hammer into the enemy line; two squads bust up the gut, normally led by Logan with a Relentless Long Fang pack until contact is made with the enemy, while supporting squads utilize Razors as armored cover, blasting at the outward flanks. Rune Priests offer cover the whole way, the entire blob of Wolf under the shroud of a storm. The Razors, essentially, are there to provide cover and to gun down tanks; Once infantry contact is made with the enemy, the Razors rarely shoot, instead running rampant through the enemy, Tank Shocking or ramming as they see fit.

 

If that's a "Stand and shoot" army, then I certainly don't know what -you've- been facing.

 

if i were to build a armor list, i would include a few vindi/pred tanks, maybe sprinkle in a land raider. actual pieces of space marine armor and not just spamming the rides.

 

And this isn't an Armor list. It's a Plasma list. :P I have an Armor variant that utilizes a few Land Raiders and Wolf Guard instead of Greys.

 

taking nothing but plasma and claiming its fluffy ignores the fluff that plasma is actually a rare and specialized weapon in the Imperium, as the tech to reliably create the weapons are dubious at best.

 

WLK

 

That is about the only "Real" argument that you've made in terms of actual fluff. Yes, I agree that Plasma is a rare thing. However, "rare" does not mean "unavailable." Especially to the Wolves, who have direct control over a minor empire of their own, who are a First Founding chapter, and who wouldn't be above taking weaponry from fallen foes. (Never mind that I'm running a "Counts As", as a renegade chapter.) Are Guard armies who utilize plasma "Unfluffy"? After all, would you give any Joe, Dick and Harry who sign up for the Guard a Plasma weapon, if they are so rare? I could count more Plasma in a Guard Company than my entire army has at it's disposal. Yet that is perfectly fluffy; why? Because it's Guard. Why does Chaos have access to so much Plasma? They've been fighting for ten thousand years, shouldn't it be at least -mildly- broken? Well yes, it -should- be, but it's not. What about Meltaspam? Well, Leafblower is often seen as Broken, even though Meltas are perfectly common.

 

 

What all arguments about "Fluff" or "brokenness" boil down to, at the end of it all, is "I don't like how powerful this is." Because of the power level, certain players strike at the only real target of legitimacy; The fluff. A person rarely comes out and says "I don't like your list because it's too powerful", because that often is ... Well, let's face it. It's whining. It's avoiding the notion of trying to defeat the powerful army, instead criticising the owning player rather than improving ones own army.

 

I've run the all-Flamer variant of this army. It was touted as "Fluffy" and "Fun" and "Good to Play Against." It also almost always lost. The minute the Flamers were replaced with Plasma, it was "Unfluffy", "No Wolf Lord would do this", et cetera, et cetera. Again. All comes back to power, not fluff.

 

 

No army is "Broken". No army is, really, "Unfluffy". There is no such thing as "Cheese", and there is always a way to defeat any army. To be perfectly on topic... Any Wolf army that exists is, by definition, Wolfy. Anyone who suggests otherwise is narrow-minded, unable to alter their playstyle in the face of adversity, and possibly has mommy or daddy issues. (Not you, WLK. :P )

[Decoy]

Even more to the point, come to think of it... Going point by point...

 

"How Space Wolves are meant to be played:

Courage, honor and a glorious death in the battlefield

Frost axe to the face, aggression, adrenaline-pumped melee

Prefer the crucible of melee with ranged support

Mighty warriors, epic sagas, tales of greatness and glory

 

*Last I knew, we weren't suicidal.

*Last I knew, that was only Blood Claws and certain Wolf Lords.

*Possibly true, but even Blood Claws know the value of range. Why else would our eldest be Long Fangs?

*Never changed.

 

To me, it seems like HERO just doesn't understand what being a Wolf means. A Wolf is balance, temperance and strategy over headlong berzerk charges. HERO seems to be mistaking Space Wolves with Khorne Berzerkers. When I proudly tell the tale of my Long Fang, the last model on my board, who went and killed three Dark Angels squads at full strength, is that "Unfluffy"? When I speak of the lone Powerfist Storm Claw who blew through four Necron squads, is it unfluffy? The Plasmagunner who singlehandedly beat down Typhus in close combat, is -that- unfluffy? No. These are things that make up being a Wolf.

 

Sounds like that HERO needs to watch some real ones instead of armchair generaling how other people play their armies.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

No army is "Broken". No army is, really, "Unfluffy". There is no such thing as "Cheese", and there is always a way to defeat any army. To be perfectly on topic... Any Wolf army that exists is, by definition, Wolfy. Anyone who suggests otherwise is narrow-minded, unable to alter their playstyle in the face of adversity, and possibly has mommy or daddy issues. (Not you, WLK. )

 

i think the crux of my problem is with what you typed is right here.

I disagree with this statement immensely, but as it is your belief, will kindly agree to disagree and go my separate way. i dont have the mental fortitude to debate this online while ignoring in in my LGS.

 

i'll just continue playing with the people i enjoy playing with, and ignoring the rest. it has worked for the last few years.

 

WLK