The most competitive army possible.

[Brother Gathurn]

I'm generally pretty dedicated to fluff, I run a house ruled chaos biker army, but I figure i might as well try out this so called "power gaming" XD. I also really want to beat a friend in an upcoming game. So lets get down to business. Seeing as this is the tactica forum were not writing the list, were brainstorming what should be on it and why. So i was hoping that people could share the elements of their most competitive c:sm lists.

 

So, please, help this poor lover of fluff to end up with a something a little more competitive. I have one ground rule. No Vulcan. Other special characters are fine, but not him! I've played lists with him and as much melta and flamer as i could shove into it, and it was good. But no fun.

 

I'll start out with my input. I generally take three tac squads, all in rhinos and at least one always has melta. I also always take a squad of mm attack bikes.

[fredbob524]

librarian

avenger

null zone

 

Rifleman dread

 

Rifleman dread

 

Rifleman dread

 

Tac squad melta combi melta missile launcher rhino

 

Tac squad melta combi melta missile launcher rhino

 

Tac squad melta combi melta missile launcher rhino

 

Landspeeder mm/hf

 

Landspeeder mm/hf

 

Auto Las Predator

 

Auto Las Predator

 

Auto Las Predator

 

1850 perfection

[thade]

Fredbob, you should be ashamed of yourself. Not a single hammernator in that entire list. :)

 

Lascan Preds have taken a lot of flak on this forum; not sure I'd consider them defacto necessary. I'd instead vouch for Vindicators.

 

I can definitely get on the MM Landspeeder Bandwagon, but I favor Typhoons.

 

Also, I think that lone foot-slogging Librarian might disagree with your "perfection" assessment.

[fredbob524]

oh no you combat squad the tacs so they shoot missiles and the other halves go for midfield. I think vindicators are pretty bad templates are not how you destroy tanks and on wep makes them easy to stop. Also I very rarely run Hammernators I am not a huge fan of double rock it's just they are better than vanguard

[thade]

oh no you combat squad the tacs so they shoot missiles and the other halves go for midfield.

You say things like this and it makes me wonder how often you play and what opponents you play against. Three five-man tactical squads will not go a long way toward taking opposing deployment zone objectives, especially "going for mid-field". Also, three 100-point missile launchers aren't really worthwhile. I would instead drop one of the tactical squads down to nine (yes drop both squad upgrades and just go with boltguns), drop all of the missile launchers, and load them all up. You have more than enough anti-vehicle fire in this list; the Tacticals have another role: anti-infantry.

 

I think vindicators are pretty bad templates are not how you destroy tanks and on wep makes them easy to stop.

Str 10 AP2, on average 3" of scatter, 2d6 take the best vs armor...two or three shots and at least one of them will hit its mark every turn. You can bank on all three really tearing stuff up. Vindicators are great at rocking armor and eat squads of troops for breakfast. And, since you have three of them, Lancaster will smile upon thee and smite thy unworthy foe.

 

Also I very rarely run Hammernators I am not a huge fan of double rock it's just they are better than vanguard

You seemed to give up in that other thread though. Not that I blame you. <3 I've killed more than a few hammernator units with my not-as-good Vanguard.

 

HOWEVER

 

They are point-for-point by far the most durable unit in the game. (You can argue that Nobz and now Paladins with wound alloc games are thicker, but they cost waaaay more.) They shouldn't be eschewed when considering an "ultimate list".

 

I should probably now mention that I don't really think there is an ultimate list. I'm pretty sure I could take that list with my rag-tag fluff list; I've taken similar ones and even ones that are supposed to be broken. I bet I'm not the only one; I'd bet cash-monies a Grey Mage footslogger list would give that one more than a run for its money.

[DarkGuard]

Why be competitive when you can be fun!

 

Seriously though, this is a game that involves and luck, and no amount of strategy or list building will help you when your luck's out. In the end, I think the best way to play this game is to get a blend of using a fun, fluffy list that can still compete. However, every list has to be able to fit in with your strengths and weaknesses, and your style of play, which may well make fredbob's list awful for someone else if they don't know how to play it!

 

There are some auto-includes though, in that if you want that job done well you take them. These tend to be MM ABs or MM/HF Speeders for fast melta and either Rifleman, combi-preds or Typhoons for anti-tank, while Hammernators in a Raider are seen as one of the best assault units in the game (personally I prefer Honour Guard in a Rhino). Tactical squads are normally best for scoring but Scouts can do a job as well.

 

And mech, if you want to be competitive you more or less want everything as a vehicle, or in a vehicle.

 

But then where's the fun in that? ;)

[thade]

Why be competitive when you can be fun! Other brilliant thoughts and details...

Read this and take it to heart.

 

If I learned anything from playing and re-re-rereading Silent Requiem's tactica it's that a very savvy player can work wonders with a very crappy list. Were I to assert anything about a solid 40k list, it wouldn't be in absolutes. Here is how I recommend you build your list:

 

You have several roles that you'll need units to address; certainly some units can cover multiple roles. The basics you need are anti-infantry, anti-vehicle, mobility, and objective controlling. Other rolls to consider are harassing and suppressing. You might think of other roles that I forgot (or don't know about). I'd be curious to hear them. Let's talk about these in no particular order, and with little to no absolutes.

 

Again. These are not absolute recommendations. This is just to get you thinking about how to craft a solid list that suits you.

 

Anti-infantry

 

This role can be fulfilled by almost any unit you can think of, but some units are defacto set-up for it (e.g., Tactical Squads) and some are specialists at it (e.g. a command squad with all plasma guns). For me, a lot of my anti-infantry comes from scoring choices (tac squads and assault squads), but I also field Sternguard, who with their special ammo are very specialized for anti-infantry. Assault Cannons are good anti-infantry. Heavy Bolters and Flamers are nice for light infantry (Ork Boyz, Guardsmen) where as plasma or Demolisher shells will be helpful for things like Terminators. Whirlwinds are particularly good against horde armies.

 

Anti-vehicle

 

This is often a discussion in itself, but to boil it down you really need to think about two kinds of vehicles that you need to drop. Light APCs (Rhinos) which will often be more numerous than heavy afmor (Leman Russes, Land Raiders). For light transports, you can use missile launchers (Devs, Tac Squads) or even plasma cannons in a pinch...TL-autocannons on Dreads are popular for this. Some kinds of heavies you can flank so your Assault Cannons or Autocannons have a chance of breaking through, but LRs you need to punch them on AV14. This is often a close range event, but it's rare you'll confront more than two in an 1850 list. If we're talking all-comers here, I wouldn't break the bank on melta weaponry. Land Speeders and Bikes shine here as they can flank when it's advantageous to do so, but in a pinch that loan marine can pop out of a Rhino hatch and take his best shot.

 

Objective Holding

 

You naturally need a Troop unit to hold an objective, but you don't want them sitting there alone. Something like a Dreadnought, a small flying Vanguard, or an Honour Guard can at best provide a deterrent for your opponent when he's considering objectives to try and take; at worst they can lend a healthy amount of power weapon attacks. You could do this with all sorts of units; even sitting two troop units (if you have them to spare) on an objective is better than one. One to screen for assaults, for instance, so the other doesn't get pulled into one (and off of the objective) on a turn five charge. Something else I've done is build a literal wall of Rhinos and tanks to prevent objective contesting.

 

Mobility

 

This traditionally means "Rhinos" but can work with jump packs, Deep Striking/Drop Podding, Bikes, or Speeders. Remember: to win you don't have to control all of the objectives. You must have complete control of one and contest any other objectives that your opponent has. If you can do this, you can win. Lots of ways to do this. Pull your opponent off of his objective (or get yours into contest range) with an assault (be it a Dread, squad, whatever); Tank Shock! in on Turn 5 like an Eldar player; or just plain kill anything that isn't in your colors.

 

Do you have all of that covered?

 

Ask yourself:

• If it's a Green Tide, can I handle it?
  
• If it's a mechanized IG list, can I handle it?
  
• If the objectives are at each corner of the table, can I handle it?
  

If you answered "Yes" to all of these, you're good to go. Your list is not biased towards one end of the spectrum and surprises can be handled.

 

Note that you don't have to be able to obliterate the Tide or the IG Shell Storm in order to win; you just need to be able to handle it. Massed anti-infantry fire (HBs, WWs, etc) will be excellent against a tide...but I've beaten them with Tacs and Devastators by baiting, harrying, and keeping mobile. There are lots of ways to address these needs. Based on that thought alone, I firmly believe there is no end-all-be-all list.

 

I'm sure someone could word this better than me, but that's what I think.

[DarkGuard]

That's a fantastic post thade, everyone should be made to read it :lol:.

[thade]

Very nice of you to say, DG. :P I probably should've proof-read/put more thought into/asked for opinions...but then, there it is and so I have.

 

Let me add to it like some kind of tactica writer.

 

Two units type I mentioned above but didn't go into:

 

Harasser

 

This is just what it sounds like. It's a unit (or group of units) that's not necessarily as lethal as it is annoying. This is anything from a psyker unit that somehow hinders or disables a unit to a jump team that hops from building top to building top raining fire down upon the streets below. The better it is at its job, the more likely it's drawing attention to itself away from something that's actually important, such as a detachment of your force that's moving toward an objective. Units that can't catch but can scare and survive (like a foot-slogging Hammernator unit) can effectively harry units out of cover (as they flee in an effort to avoid melee with the hammer-wielding monsters) count as harassers. A Harasser can also be a Suppressor.

 

Suppressor

 

A Suppressor locks down or tarpits one or more enemy units, keeping them from doing useful things. Some examples are:

• Ranged Dreadnoughts that engage a unit in melee; they probably won't kill the unit, but they will likely tie it up for a long while.
  
• Jump Teams or other Assault Teams, like Vanguard and Hammernators: multi-assault to drag a large mess in. Large messes not only occupy the units you've engaged, but can also create choke points that force your opponent to move other parts of his force through less advantageous routes (like your fire lanes).
  
• Bored Devastators...or anything else that has a lot of heavy fire power and doesn't get to shoot. Why isn't it shooting? Hopefully because your opponent is trying to keep things out of their firing lane; if that's the case, this unit is a suppressor.
  

[DarkGuard]

Very nice of you to say, DG. :) I probably should've proof-read/put more thought into/asked for opinions...but then, there it is and so I have.

 

Let me add to it like some kind of tactica writer.

 

Yeah you should, I find it very satisfying writing tacticas, even people don't get round to reading them :).

[Brother Gathurn]

Thanks for the responses. I totally agree with everyone who pointed out that frankly this is no fun. Biker chaos looks cooler and is WAAAAAAAAY more fun than a cookie cutter list that will win more often. And I've gotten to the point were i win almost as often as i loose, which is definitively nice :). However regardless of how much fun it is, in this case i am looking for the lame, cookie cutter type army -_-

[thade]

You already know it tho. Vulkanized melta/flamer marines. <3

[DarkGuard]

You already know it tho. Vulkanized melta/flamer marines. <3

 

All meched up of course, with a sprinkling of Hammernators. There must be at least a couple of these lists at my store, maybe more that I don't see as often.

 

The one thing I never understand with Vulkan lists is I see a lot of them with TFCs. Now I know the TFC is great and all, I'm definitely not knocking it, but I can't see how that fits into a Vulkan list.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Long ranged support? With the melta/flamer combo forcing everyone to get up close the TFC can provide some bombardment from a distance to help cover the advance and whittle down enemy defences or slow down enemy tanks and the like until you get close enough

 

 

I'd agree and say Vulkan lists are quite a decent template to build around as they improve marines a lot in many of their best areas -_-

[thade]

Hopefully this doesn't devolve into a love/hate Vulkan thread. <3

 

I dig TFCs in a list with big V; the Forgefather of my estranged parent chapter is likely to bust out all the fancy equipment (and his techmarines). It's fluffy.

 

This is all just fueling my point though. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who's beaten cookie-cutter tournie Vulkan with a less popular, statistically inferior list. Cookie cutter does not equal better.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

In a small bit of irony given the current topics of conversation here, it was in fact my TFC that allowed me to beat the last Vulkan list I played. Hammernators don't like taking that many saves.

[Brother Gathurn]

You already know it tho. Vulkanized melta/flamer marines. <3

 

I'm in denial :P

[thade]

You already know it tho. Vulkanized melta/flamer marines. <3

 

I'm in denial :)

Then you are in good company. Maybe we're discussing the wrong thing?

 

Why is it that you want to know a stock/cookie-cutter internet win list?

[Something Wycked]

I'm noticing a pattern here. I'll resist posting in a thread, and resist and resist... Until I see it too many times. Then something in me snaps and I have to post ;)

 

The most competitive army possible is the one that you perform best with.

 

I play really well with my shooting oriented Marines, using both the C:SM and C:BA codices. I really don't play well as an assault oriented army, so I stick to a few defensive assault troops and do the rest of the force as ranged combatants.

 

I would play REALLY poorly with an optimized/stock/cookie-cutter net list assault army, even though it has been found to be mathematically superior. Its just not my play style.

[DarkGuard]

I'm noticing a pattern here. I'll resist posting in a thread, and resist and resist... Until I see it too many times. Then something in me snaps and I have to post B)

 

The most competitive army possible is the one that you perform best with.

 

I play really well with my shooting oriented Marines, using both the C:SM and C:BA codices. I really don't play well as an assault oriented army, so I stick to a few defensive assault troops and do the rest of the force as ranged combatants.

 

I would play REALLY poorly with an optimized/stock/cookie-cutter net list assault army, even though it has been found to be mathematically superior. Its just not my play style.

 

Spot on. Case in point, I went round a friends once and we swapped our lists. I was using his rather generic BA Razorspam list, while he was using my carefully, year long constructed Space Marine mech list. To cut a long story short, I won the game, and while I didn't play his list as well as he could, he struggled to do well with my list at all. He's more than happy to admit that my list is tuned into my style of play, and while it may be competitive, it is likely only going to be competitive in my hands or someone with a similar playstyle.

[Brother Gathurn]

Well two reasons, which are related. Where I play must of us field whatever we like best/works out best for us. I know... one guy who runs Vulcan. And he's been playing salamanders longer than i've been in the Hobby, so frankly I don't see any of them except at bigger tournaments.

 

The second reason however is that I like to win, and I'd be interested to try out what's mathematically the best and see how it works for me. I wouldn't be converted to a power gamer. But it would be an interesting change of pace. And would be easier than my next project which is traitor guard.

[thade]

My honest advice to you is not to follow this road. Tweak and tweak your list until you like it, play it until you start winning. Why don't you bullet out your list for us and tell us how you use it?

[Tanhausen]

I have to agree with the "this is MY list" concept.

 

HOWEVER, we have all been through the phase of "darn, I want an easy to handle, certain victory list".

 

I don't really think C: SM has one of these... because the main strength of the SM is their flexibility and that implies proper knowledge of where you can or can't go.

 

It you want a cookie cutter, I'd go the SW way: easy to understand concepts and quite forgiving with mistakes.

 

For example...

 

Rune Priest, with the difficult terrain and S7 powers

4 x 9 GH + Wolf guard with PF, wulfen, banner, rhino

3 x 5 long fangs, 2 laser, 3 missiles

 

With left over points take podding terminators, outflanking scouts... or go to the SW subforum, which I'm sure will prove helpful.

 

Just don't tell them a Dark Angel sent you :rolleyes:

[nurglephill]

While I am a complete noob with this ed of the game I remember playing way back and everyone had their own 'list of windom' they swore by that was basically an army in their own style. Which seems to me the best way to play to win.

 

However, the idea that there is a mathematical list worked out to be the most point efficient intrigues me. Does anyone have that list and can post it hear? I would love to see it!

[thade]

While I am a complete noob with this ed of the game I remember playing way back and everyone had their own 'list of windom' they swore by that was basically an army in their own style. Which seems to me the best way to play to win.

 

However, the idea that there is a mathematical list worked out to be the most point efficient intrigues me. Does anyone have that list and can post it hear? I would love to see it!

There is no difference between a 'list of windom' and a 'mathematical list worked out to be the most point efficient', save the number of mathhammer addicts that swear by said list. <3 Even people who use Vulkanized melta/flamer lists or bike-spam lists have their own variants of them that "fit them"...unless they ripped it off of the Internet verbatim.

 

Lists ripped off the Internet verbatim are not going to win it for you. If you consistently do well with that list, it's because it fits you, not because math rules the day in this game.