GK Librarian in TDA ..................

[neonfunk]

Hi all.

 

I've had a really tough time in establishing a decent build. To be specific (and as the title suggests), I'm stuggling to come up with a viable transport option for my libby - as I'd obviously want him in a transport for the increased psychic power range, as well as being a mobile teleport homer ala The Summoning and/or deepstriking via the use of the 15 pt teleport homer.

 

I'm deliberating between:

 

1) The Land Raider (any variation):

 

Pros:

- Obviously the best option stat wise (AV 14!) with nice heavies that regular GKs dont have access to.

- Its an Assault Vehicle.

- However, I am of the opinion that the inclusion of 1 would warrant the inclusion of another (anyone disagree with this assumption? feel free to explain why!). Giving you that extra land raider would add some nice target saturation/redundancy.

 

Cons:

- Huge point sink.

- Will Take 2 heavy slot options. This creates a snowball effect, as Dreadnoughts must be Venerables (since I need either a purgation squad/DK .... which is another issue that I think i'll discuss in another topic). 2 LR's and 2 Venerables would set me back 860 points! AND they're NAKED! lol.

 

2) The Stormraven

 

Pros:

- A Fast attack option, and much cheaper (than LR).

- Assault Vehicle

Weapons and mobility are a plus, as well as the chance to carry a dread, and utilise the shrouding for nice cover saves. Same idea as above in regards to the target saturation and such..

 

Cons:

- Av12.

- I Also dont like the idea of having to "hope to go first, so that my SR doesnt get shot down on turn 1, so I have to reserve it".

- Reserving the SR with an attached libby is asking for trouble. Each turn the libby isn't on the table, the more it hurts. Otherwise, can someone suggest a snazzy deployment strat that doesn't revert to reserving, and keeping it (the SR) alive, because the thing is so god damn huge, no amount of decent cover can hide it?? Thanks in advance for ANY advice! Either way, this looks like my least preferred alternative, as I plan to use the vehicle as a roaming bunker for my libby to work his magic, coupled with some support fire. Hence, I really cant envision this unit suriving past turn 2,

 

3) The Chimera

 

Pros: - Can take 12 TDA models!

- 5 fire points!

- Relatively Cheap

 

Cons:- To get a Chimera in the list, we would need an inquisitor and a hencie unit, and then hi-jack the hunchie unit's "dedicated transport". (Question = can the henchie unit then take a ride in a rhino? I dont see why not, but just appreciated if i got some confirmation.

- Getting the Inquisitor unfortunately leaves us no room for other HQs. No Draigo, No Crowe. No FOC changes. I however, DO NOT want to take Coteaz as the inquisitor, as I do not want to play a IG army with elite space marines sprinkled on top. I want GKs! a side serving of henchies is welcome, but no more!

 

So Yeah, I'm kinda leaning towards the 3rd option, with Karamazov as the Inquisitor. Terminators and Pallies would make an appearance, as I plan to take advantage of Karamazov's "by any means necessary" rule. (Which in itself is a tactic I've yet to playtest. so any insights are more than welcome!!) I also like the idea of Karamazov being a lascannon spunge for my expensive pallies.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Adir]

I believe you can only fit 6 TDA models in a chimera. However, that is the cheapest transport for them.

 

My recommendation is take a ten man terminator squad with 2 psycannons. Take an inquisitor with a three man acolyte squad (12 pts) with chimera.

 

Combat squad the termies, leaving 2 psycannons in one squad. Take the non-psy/c team with the inquisitor tooled with for CC (xenos inq w/ grenades) and stick them in the chimera (remember they have to deploy on foot then hijack the chimera turn 1). The psy/c terms make excellent footsloggers as your opponent will be trying to destroy the chimera before it hits his lines.

 

Alternatively, you could put the psy/c terms in the chimera with a malleus inq w/psy/c as a shooting platform.

 

I prefer using the chimera as a mini-assault vehicle, with the CC terms and the aforementioned xenos inq. Jam the chimera towards enemy lines, assuming it will get destroyed next turn, then assault with the terms from the wreckage! With halberds and rad grenades (from the inq) these guys will nuke most things in CC.

 

Edit: just realized I missed the point about wanting to transport the libby (kind of the whole point of your post - oops). So same advice re: chimera sub the libby for the inq. Then take a xenos inq with conversion beamer and a bunch of meat shield acolytes. Park them in cover and you have some decent long range fire support.

[Inquisitor Fox]

In my experience of having a Land Raider as a transport for my Inquisitor Lord in my Witch Hunters force for so long, I've come to the following conclusion. Two Land Raiders is not necessary if you include one, however another "heavier armor style target" is always useful. You don't have to have two Land Raiders as much as ANYTHING to make them make choices about where their anti-armor firepower is going. Perhaps it's Land Raider / Exorcist / two transports (which is what I went with). Perhaps it's Land Raider / Storm Raven / Dreadknight / Razorback. The key is not having only one or two armored targets, because those targets will draw all the available anti-armor guns on the table. If you present multiple threats, it buys time for all your other threats.

[Red Lost Soldier]

In regards to the Stormraven. Range is another way to keep it alive. It only works against certain enemies like Tyranids, staying out of range for a turn or two while Riflemen deal with their anti tank can keep it alive. The reserve option is not as bad as you think. With a 24" flat out move, coming in turn two or three won't put you far behind the rest of your force. An Inquisitor with Communion can make this a more advantageous position also. As to cover, the SR brings it's own with flat out movement giving you obscured and still being able to fire. The Librarian can boost this even further. If they enemy is relying on melta to bring it down the ceramite plating can surprise also.

 

The main question I would put back to you is what unit do you want the Librarian to ride with? If you did want to go the Chimera route, a squad of DCA would be available, and a potent combo with the Librarians hammerhand, might of titan, and sanctuary spells. The former two helping you beat just about anything in the game and the latter hopefully helping to keep the DCA alive post combat. The Chimera brings a decent charge range also, free pivot, disembark 2", move 6" and assault 6" not being far of an assault vehicle.

 

I've run single LR's in the past, with success. LR's have a 18"+base size of model charge range. Enemy melta needs to be within 6" to reliably deal with it, and even MM's need to get within 12", which even with 12" movement puts them close to charge range. It's sometimes more about the 20" bubble of death threat for the first half of the game than actually charging.

[nurglez]

if you pivot a vehicle then get out I'm pretty sure you count as moving...

 

As said above, lone landraiders can do ok, provided you have armour saturation. Of course vs some armies it may die first turn, but as long as its moving its providing a 20inch assault threat range.

 

I dont know about a lone storm raven, I have one and am yet to use it...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think you've summed it up pretty well.

 

Landraiders are pretty meh nowadays, the metagame is more about putting lots of medium/light armour down than a few expensive rocks (that meltaguns eat anyway).

 

Stormraven does have the problem of being an obvious target, but you can minimise such problems by Reserving or bring more armour to distract attention away from it. You could always pick up the Librarian+friends later on, you don't have to deploy him in it. I agree that the Librarian needs to be on the table as much as possible to lend support.

 

Chimera isn't a terrible option, but it does require giving up Grandmaster/Draigo as your secondary HQ. If you do take an Inquisitor, take Coteaz every time. It's unlikely you'll have filled Troops anyway, and having scoring Henchmen is a real bonus (it lets you field scoring Razorbacks to provide fire support and camp objectives). I agree that Henchmen armies don't really work (as they're trying to be Imperial Guard but without the support vehicles), but a few cheap scoring units is never a bad thing (not to mention they bring both precious melta spam and light armour spam).

 

I personally footslog or Deepstrike the Libby with some Paladin friends, as I believe his powers are best applied in close-combat.

[jeffersonian000]

My personnal choice of delivery system for my Librarian + Teleport Homer is Mordrak + Ghosts. Lets me place that Librarian wherever I want on the first turn, and gives him enough ablative wounds to survive until Mordrak can guide the rest of my army to the table.

 

SJ

[neonfunk]

First of all. thank you all for your time and input....

 

The main question I would put back to you is what unit do you want the Librarian to ride with? If you did want to go the Chimera route, a squad of DCA would be available, and a potent combo with the Librarians hammerhand, might of titan, and sanctuary spells.

 

Good idea... Although I plan to either Run a Henchie Squad (lets call it squad "x") with Plasma Wielding Warrioirs, some ablative 4 point warriors, and 3 x Crusaders (for Karamazov OSR shenanigans). If I plan to have a henchie squad, then it must fulill a niche that GK's lack i.e. high strength low ap range i.e. las, plas, and melta.... I intend to Summon a beefed up termie/pally squad (squad y) to then babysit my libby, and then go smash face.

 

Alternatively, squad x and y can swap... so squad y gets the chimera + lbby, so ill be getting 8 psycannon shots (plus 6 SB shots!) via top hatching. Squad x will then be summoned, and the unit (or specifically the crusaders) can engage the baddest enemey unit so Karamazov can dish out the pies. What's your take on this approach?

 

My personnal choice of delivery system for my Librarian + Teleport Homer is Mordrak + Ghosts. Lets me place that Librarian wherever I want on the first turn, and gives him enough ablative wounds to survive until Mordrak can guide the rest of my army to the table.

 

I've toyed with this idea, but it seems a bit gimmicky (dare I say, cheesy lol)... Also, I think that a smart opponent (I'm thinking Darl Eldar) can come up with a decent counter to it. Im assuming that your gonna 1st turn DS ur mordrak + libby unit, and summon/deepstrike the rest? Can you please share your experience with this tactic of yours? Thanks in advance!

 

Stormraven does have the problem of being an obvious target, but you can minimise such problems by Reserving or bring more armour to distract attention away from it. You could always pick up the Librarian+friends later on, you don't have to deploy him in it. I agree that the Librarian needs to be on the table as much as possible to lend support.

 

Quite viable imo.... but it seems that if you dont get 1st go, then SR MUST be reserved ( and knowing my luck, they wont show up will turn 3- unlikely to have no psychic communion since im leaning towards Kara and Libby as HQ) Or pray for a niece piece of terrain in your deployment zone? Any other way?? or do you guys find that it dies if you deploy it (it seems that whatever units you put up as saturation e.g. DK's, Dreads, Assassins, Paladin Death Star Unit, etc...), ur opponent will automatically go for the SR.

 

Also, I've noticed that no1 has commented on Karamazov and his accurate OSR's. Worth it? Flawed? Points inefficient? or just plain crap?

 

NB, i'm planing to use karamazov as a lascannon spunge for my pallies (not as good as draigo obviously!). Another use is purgation squad + Karamazov (NO LOS NEEDED FOR OSR YAY!). A surpise "tactic" would be to summon him over and join him to the pallies+libby unit and join in the assault, so they can gain some nice nades i.e. as a CC buffer (he himself isnt that bad in CC -T 5, Str 5 MC Power Sword. Add rad grenades, hammer hand and/or might of titan, then its insta gib for MEQs characters/elites. GEQs cry more).

 

As always, appreciate the feedback! cheers

[Adir]

Karamazov is cool and all but he has to foot slog and I think the list really has to be built specifically around him. I've run him but haven't really figured out how to play him yet. His accurate OSR is a little gimmicky and means you do need more henchies as cheap delivery systems. Bear in mind that his Relentless doesn't mean he can move and OSR stuff.

 

Mordrak is my favorite named characters. He harkens back to the old Grand master in that he forms a retinue with his ghosts and the likely generation of 2 additional GKT takes his effective cost down to 120 pts. Can't really beat that. Add the libbie to his squad, drop them anywhere turn 1 and use the ghosts Stealth for some guaranteed protection.

 

Some folks don't care for the ghosts due to their lack of psycannons, but the idea of getting close with these guys makes them a better dedicated assault IMO.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Quite viable imo.... but it seems that if u dont get 1st go, then SR MUST be reserved ( and knowing my luck, they wont show up will turn 3- unlikely to have no psychic communion since im leaning towards Kara and Libby as HQ) Or pray for a niece piece of terrain in ur deployment zone? Any other way?? or do u guys find that it dies if u deploy it (it seems that whatever units u put up as saturation e.g. DK's, Dreads, Assassins, Paladin Death Star Unit, etc...), ur opponent will automatically go for the SR.

 

Well yeah, but you can work that to your advantage. Remember, guns going into the Stormraven won't be going into your Dreads, tanks, Dreadknight etc. Likewise, if they choose to spread out their firepower, everything is taking less damage than would otherwise be the case.

 

As I said, Coteaz is a good choice in this regard, because he brings 'Psychic Communion' and cheap armour spam to reduce the likelyhood of your SR getting ganked (or at least making the choice to gank only the SR a bad one, if it means other things live longer).

 

 

Also, I've noticed that no1 has commented on Karamazov and his accurate OSR's. Worth it? Flawed? Points inefficient? or just plain crap?

 

It's very gimmicky. I mean, OSR isn't even that great of a weapon to begin with (better than conversion beamer but not by much), and the conditions to make his special rule work are kinda hard to engineer without your opponent realising and countering it.

 

I'd honestly would pass on Karamasov. He's stuck walking, he slows down your Paladins as well (as they're the only decent meatshield for him), and Coteaz is half the price but twice the usefulness (both are pretty average in combat TBH).

[jeffersonian000]

My personnal choice of delivery system for my Librarian + Teleport Homer is Mordrak + Ghosts. Lets me place that Librarian wherever I want on the first turn, and gives him enough ablative wounds to survive until Mordrak can guide the rest of my army to the table.

 

I've toyed with this idea, but it seems a bit gimmicky (dare I say, cheesy lol)... Also, I think that a smart opponent (I'm thinking Darl Eldar) can come up with a decent counter to it. Im assuming that ur gonna 1st turn DS ur mordrak + libby unit, and summon/deepstrike the rest? Can you please share your experience with this tactic of yours? Thanks in advance!

 

Seems to be working fine. In games were I go first, I simply choose to put everything in reserve, roll for Grand Strategy, and plan out my attack depending on what my opponent decides to do. Works quite well versus a non-deep striking opponent. Placement of Mordrak is key. Do I put him in terrain or behind terrain? Near an enemy unit and out of LoS of any enemy? On my side of the table or their side of the table? It leaves options open, which is something I lacked with my old 3rd ed GK multi-LR lists. If I go second, more options open up, as my opponent will either move to claim objectives (spreading out) or passing their openning turn on an empty table (which effectively means I'm the one actually going first).

 

I have experimented on just ignoring Objectives until the end game and going for tabling my opponent, which has the effect of throwing off their strategy because my goals aren't their goals, and I've tried the defensive game of maintaining cover while my units scoot-shoot every turn. Most games have been wins, the rest draws, with no loses so far. However, those games have be either face-rolls in the case of wins or really tough fights in case of the draws. I have yet to fight a competent DE player, as my venue does not have any serious DE players. Eldar were a draw. Chaos Marines and Daemons were face-rolls, because my army scared my opponent in each case (I should have lost one game, but my opponent paniced when I claming placed Mordrak-and-team behind his vehickes, and we fought the whole game in his lap without him ever leaving his quarter of the table). Codex Marines and Blood Angels have been my toughest opponents, but not Wolves oddly enough.

 

However, I would not recommend this style of play to someone just starting. Its a shock army, a get-up-in-your-face army, but it is full of weak points. I'm currently running:

 

Mordrak + 4 Ghosts w/ 1 each NFS, NFH, NDH, NFF

 

Librarian w/ Teleport Homer, 2-3 Servor-Skulls, 3-4 powers (normally Warp Rift, Quicksilver, Shoulding, and either Might or Dark Excom in place of a skull)

 

:rolleyes: 10-man GKT w/ 2 Psycannons, 2 NDH, 4 NFH, 1 NFF

 

:lol: 10-man GKT w/ 2 Psycannons, 2 NDH, 4 NFH, 1 NFF

 

:( 10-man GKIS w/ 2 Psycannons, 2 NDH

 

1750pts, 37-40 models, 5-7 kill points

 

I only took the Falchions to make those models unique for wound allocation, and was running them as +1 attack even before the FAQ. To date, I have rarely had to deal with being out ranged because I start right on top of my opponent. My strategy is to get inside their thought loop and set the fight to my pace forcing my opponent to react to me.

 

SJ

[neonfunk]

Karamazov is cool and all but he has to foot slog and I think the list really has to be built specifically around him. I've run him but haven't really figured out how to play him yet. His accurate OSR is a little gimmicky and means you do need more henchies as cheap delivery systems. Bear in mind that his Relentless doesn't mean he can move and OSR stuff.

 

Mordrak is my favorite named characters. He harkens back to the old Grand master in that he forms a retinue with his ghosts and the likely generation of 2 additional GKT takes his effective cost down to 120 pts. Can't really beat that. Add the libbie to his squad, drop them anywhere turn 1 and use the ghosts Stealth for some guaranteed protection.

 

Some folks don't care for the ghosts due to their lack of psycannons, but the idea of getting close with these guys makes them a better dedicated assault IMO.

 

I intend to have a primarily footslogging army anyway, as I intend to saturate midfield (GK strengths obviously). Karamazov himsef doesnt need to footslog, depending on what unit i intend to attach him to... On "how to run him" have you considered attaching him to purgation squads in backfield?

 

However, I would not recommend this style of play to someone just starting. Its a shock army, a get-up-in-your-face army, but it is full of weak points. I'm currently running:

 

@jeffersonian000: Thanks for the input. I shall certainly be entertaining myself by trialling different approaches, and an approach similar to yours (Mordrak+Libby Combo, with the rest in reserve) will definiately be trialled. I must agree with you, that this is an aggressive style, and definately not for a noob/"someone who hasnt played since 2nd ed", but I am willing to take a steep learning curve with some heavy losses first. In fact, I'd actually want to lose heavily so that I could catch up with the game. This was the primary reason I wanted to start re-collecting Daemonhunters, and was somewhat upset that they got "beefed up" with the new GK codex, as the playing the old DH was the ultimate steep learning curve experience.

 

So... back to the Original topic... Anyone else have any other ideas for TDA libby delivery systems?

seems we've covered:

1) chimera (+compulsory inquisitor);

2) LR;

3) SR;

4) Mordrak;

5) Footslog with suitable unit

 

Cheers

[Valerian]

I've had a really tough time in establishing a decent build. To be specific (and as the title suggests), I'm stuggling to come up with a viable transport option for my libby - as I'd obviously want him in a transport for the increased psychic power range, as well as being a mobile teleport homer ala The Summoning and/or deepstriking via the use of the 15 pt teleport homer.

 

Note that his Teleport Homer won't help with regard to the use of The Summoning psychic power. It'll only help with actual Deep Strikes via Teleportation.

 

I haven't played any games yet with the new codex, as I still need to finish my Space Wolves (pretty much done, finally) before I start updating my Grey Knights (adding Hammers, mostly, and a few other new options). However, my plan is to use a counts-as Mordrak and Librarian combination, and use him in a similar manner as Jeffersonian. Although some games will be tough, it'll be hella fun to put that unit exactly where you want it, every time. Keep them alive long enough, keep Psychic Communion going, and Teleport in your entire army, safely. To me, this is the epitome of Grey Knights style warfare. I love it! Just give your Librarian a few Servo Skulls, too, and spread them around, in case you decide not to bring very unit right to the Librarian.

 

Valerian

[jeffersonian000]

@jeffersonian000: Thanks for the input. I shall certainly be entertaining myself by trialling different approaches, and an approach similar to yours (Mordrak+Libby Combo, with the rest in reserve) will definiately be trialled. I must agree with you, that this is an aggressive style, and definately not for a noob/"someone who hasnt played since 2nd ed", but I am willing to take a steep learning curve with some heavy losses first. In fact, I'd actually want to lose heavily so that I could catch up with the game. This was the primary reason I wanted to start re-collecting Daemonhunters, and was somewhat upset that they got "beefed up" with the new GK codex, as the playing the old DH was the ultimate steep learning curve experience.

 

No problem! I was a Water Warrior with the old DH codex, and ran both duel and triple Land Raider lists successfully, yet never to the top table of a tournament. What I've found with the new dex is that all our old tactics still work, we just have better rules/tools to play with than we had before. I do miss WS5 and S6 weapons a bit, but it was always about shooting at 24" and avoiding combat until it was the right decision to make. And it still is. What I'm not missing are the mis-matched rules between editions.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't know how you'd manage to be upset with our new awesome codex lol. If you want a real challenge, try getting anywhere with Necrons in a competitive setting. Thats really putting the beartrap around your ankles

[jeffersonian000]

I don't know how you'd manage to be upset with our new awesome codex lol. If you want a real challenge, try getting anywhere with Necrons in a competitive setting. Thats really putting the beartrap around your ankles

 

Who are you referring to, Reclusiarch?

 

SJ

[neonfunk]

QUOTE (Reclusiarch Darius @ Jul 3 2011, 05:17 PM)

I don't know how you'd manage to be upset with our new awesome codex lol. If you want a real challenge, try getting anywhere with Necrons in a competitive setting. Thats really putting the beartrap around your ankles

 

Actually, in terms of "gaining a challenge" it was a toss up between Necrons and DH....

DH came out on top due to the visual appeal.... Subjective thing of course....

 

 

Initially, I was very upset, esp during the period when the new rumours regarding GK were circulating.... But now, not more so, its an extremely balanced codex... This entire thread i.e. my conundrum regarding the TDA libby's and transports encapsulate this balance IMO.... I'm SURE that all GK HQ's are in TDA as default, is a thing of design rather than chance ..... or am i giving GW too much undeserved kudos? lol

 

@ Relusiarch, I'm curious... what specifically makes you think that our new codex is "awesome"? Sure, its better than the old DH, but "awesome"? Of course, I'm working off the assertion that awesome = a tangible degree of "automatic I-win-button".

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Who are you referring to, Reclusiarch?

 

Neonfunk, forgot the quote for reference :lol: my bad

 

Actually, in terms of "gaining a challenge" it was a toss up between Necrons and DH....

DH came out on top due to the visual appeal.... Subjective thing of course....

 

Necrons are pretty too though...but yeah, Knights are prettier, I agree

 

Initially, I was very upset, esp during the period when the new rumours regarding GK were circulating.... But now, not more so, its an extremely balanced codex... This entire thread i.e. my conundrum regarding the TDA libby's and transports encapsulate this balance IMO.... I'm SURE that all GK HQ's are in TDA as default, is a thing of design rather than chance ..... or am i giving GW too much undeserved kudos? lol

 

@ Relusiarch, I'm curious... what specifically makes you think that our new codex is "awesome"? Sure, its better than the old DH, but "awesome"? Of course, I'm working off the assertion that awesome = a tangible degree of "automatic I-win-button".

 

Nah, the TDA thing is to encourage us towards Terminator/Paladin squads, to make retinues for them. I think they clued into how broken power-armoured Librarians can be if you have cheap armour spam available to the army (Knights can certainly do Razorspam lists just as well as BA or SW), so they forced you to either shell out for a Landraider/Stormraven, or field a retinue to shield them from enemy fire.

 

I wouldn't say Knights are as auto-win as say some Guard or SW builds, but they do offer an army that can be overwhelmingly effective when used correctly. Grey Hunter spam is a list that plays itself, so does melta-Vet Guard. Knights do require a bit more nuance however, because they play differently to other power-armoured forces. I've had pretty good luck lately with my Knight list (been winning or drawing), but I imagine once people start figuring out ways to counter my units (Vindicators are on the menu for my Marine opponents, as are plasma spam Command squads to deal with the Dreadknight), my luck will change. I also find that you really need to get to 2k before we can start fielding all our good stuff, below that you're having to really squeeze to fit more than the HQ+retinue+2 Strike squads+1-2 wildcard units.

 

The auto-win lists are typified by undercosted units/abilities, and a general ability to bring overwhelming bodies and armour to the field, which only good generals or equally well-written lists will have a chance against. Knights have some tricks, but they're still largely just Marines, and everyone and their dog knows how to kill a Tactical or Terminator squad these days (because we spend so much time theorising about it).

[TyrionTheImp]

Space Wolves Codex isn't auto-win, it's just the most forgiving army to play with.

 

The GK Codex is "awesome" because it's so full of competitive variety. You can make an effective henchmen army that is just as effective as a PA or GKT army. You can do Terminators, Mech, footslog even and do them all well. When you play a Space Wolf player or a Guard player, you have a general idea of what their list is going to look like before you even see it, the same isn't true with GK's. None of the available list types are any inferior to the other (so long as they're properly constructed mind you) so I'm sure several types will show up to the big tournaments, so long as the internet doesn't convince EVERYBODY one way is the best.