Ever feel like JRAS just don't cut it?

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

I don't mean they aren't good enough. They certainly are, what's not to like about fairly cheap jump infantry with FnP and FC? The thing is, when I throw them into the fight, even against other armies' troops, I feel like I am hurling them to their inevitable death. Unlike Mechanized infantry, where they are more or less protected from anti-personnel weapons, EVERY weapon in an army can kill jump infantry, and even if you deep strike, you are virtually guaranteeing yourself a round where every single weapon your opponent has is going to be shooting you.

 

That said, I played against a guy who felt the same way, but he supplements his squads by using Furioso and DC dreads delivered by storm raven or drop pod, leaving his troops free to deep strike around and score, or possibly supplement a close combat if they need to.

 

Anyone have any experience with this?

[RebG]

I had a phase of thinking about this. Especially playing other marines and watching them die in groups to power weapon attacks (darn Wolf Guard).

 

Then I stopped relying on them to be 'ultimate killing machines' and accept they were 'just' troops - the most basic dudes in my whole force. I now try to use them more to support an attack from a 'hard' unit - DC, VV or HG - or team them up with another RAS. It takes a bit more planning and the measurements need to be right - i.e synergy with the other elements of your force.

 

That, or fight a horde army when the armour is actually useful and the can go toe to toe with 20+ Ork boys for a few rounds

[JamesI]

I had a phase of thinking about this. Especially playing other marines and watching them die in groups to power weapon attacks (darn Wolf Guard).

 

Then I stopped relying on them to be 'ultimate killing machines' and accept they were 'just' troops - the most basic dudes in my whole force. I now try to use them more to support an attack from a 'hard' unit - DC, VV or HG - or team them up with another RAS. It takes a bit more planning and the measurements need to be right - i.e synergy with the other elements of your force.

 

That, or fight a horde army when the armour is actually useful and the can go toe to toe with 20+ Ork boys for a few rounds

Pretty much this.

 

A RAS on its own is not a power house. It has to be used carefully in a few ways.

 

(This is all based on my personal experience and should never be considered an exhaustive list)

 

1) To support other troops in assault (jumping in to end a combat where another unit is already locked or jumping in to support something nastier like Vanguard, Sanguinary Guard, DC, Honor Guard or even Mephiston/Sanguinor)

2) As a body guard for a hard hitter like Dante/Astorath. A RAS with Astorath or a Reclusiarch and a priest can hit pretty hard.

3) To take out weaker enemies in assault.

 

One of my BA lists runs 30 jump assault marines as the core of the list, the other is mech with 10 jump marines as a support unit.

 

My biggest issue with an assault squad compared to the more powerful jumpy units is the lack of power weapons. Even allowing just 1 more power weapon to the squad would be a huge benefit for it.

[Leksington]

Blood Angels would be way overpowered if you could just throw one of our basic troop types headlong into combat and have it be an instant win.

[Morollan]

Blood Angels would be way overpowered if you could just throw one of our basic troop types headlong into combat and have it be an instant win.

 

I really don't think that anyone is looking for that.

[Morticon]

I don't mean they aren't good enough. They certainly are, what's not to like about fairly cheap jump infantry with FnP and FC? The thing is, when I throw them into the fight, even against other armies' troops, I feel like I am hurling them to their inevitable death. Unlike Mechanized infantry, where they are more or less protected from anti-personnel weapons, EVERY weapon in an army can kill jump infantry, and even if you deep strike, you are virtually guaranteeing yourself a round where every single weapon your opponent has is going to be shooting you.

 

That said, I played against a guy who felt the same way, but he supplements his squads by using Furioso and DC dreads delivered by storm raven or drop pod, leaving his troops free to deep strike around and score, or possibly supplement a close combat if they need to.

 

Anyone have any experience with this?

 

 

Often, often often.

Its why i've moved back to using the DC.

 

Koyote gave me the best advice ever a few years back at Adepticon. Its something you should ingrain in your thinking.

 

"Never fight a fair fight".

 

Gaganius also abides by this premise. (And he made it to the final 16 with his BA in the most recent adepticon).

 

The idea is that you dont want to win a combat. You want to destroy your opponent or hurt him so badly he cannot hurt you back.

Dont rely on luck, dont rely on averages. Go in only when you know you'er going to bloody his nose, badly.

 

RAS should always try be in FNP and FC range and then used as a supplementary assault. Its where combined arm approaches work nicely.

[Glendor]

Morticon you use DC? How? Can you show me a list?

[Grey Mage]

The downside to standard assault marines as troops is that you end up with less shooting to soften up the targets.

 

Assault marines are good at CC in most cases- you just have to work around the part where they do 90% of their killing in CC, wich isnt the most efficient way of getting things done even if it is alot of fun :P

[Morticon]

Morticon you use DC? How? Can you show me a list?

 

I'll try find the last big BatRep I did - i won the local Regional tournament at the start of the year and also won the Veteran's this year (our local 2500 tourney).

 

Got em!!!

 

** Veterans

 

** Regionals

 

 

I will be defending my Regional title tomorrow with a revised list (now 1750) and a bit more focus on shooting than before.

 

Mephy

Corbs

 

10 RAS - 2MG, Fist

5 RAS - MG, PW

Razor - TLPG/LC

5 RAS - MG, PW

Razor - TLPG/LC

5 RAS - Flmr, PW

Razor - TLLC

8 DC - 2 PF, 1PW, 4 Bolters (2 on the fists)

Rhino - HKM

 

2 Attk Bk - MM

2 Attk Bk- MM

Predator - Auto/las

 

 

 

I think DC in rhinos are excellent. Raiders and Ravens are good too, but are costly and draw a lot of fire.

Rhinos are easy to conceal and cheap. I do struggle if I lose the rhinos early, though.

 

Obviously tactics are largely dependent on my enemy. If im facing a very shooty army, I will move all out to get up in their grill ASAP.

DC dont need a priest nearby so can be fairly independent. Not entirely unsupported by my army, but they get a larger degree of movement.

They're also not scoring which means I don't need to be too precious with them, and can just put them near an objective that will be highly contested and use them as a unit to keep other units away.

But, by and large the DC will be blacking 18" towards the enemy, with the other assault elements in tow.

I dont like that i dont have my trusty second rhino squad with me in this tourney, but more shooting will be invaluable. (When the pool of excellent players in the area is as small as it is, you know who you will face on the top tables. So, i need to theme with them in mind).

 

Id love to have a Chaplain in my list, but just cant fit him in without losing valuable shooting. If you're not a Mephy player, then a chappy and libby (maybe jumping) is not a bad trade for him.

 

I find that the WS5 and extra attacks give the DC a great edge and the ability to have more than one special weapon means they put the hurt on their enemies.

I used to field small DCs. 7 or 8 man with one fist and if im very very strapped for points, I return to that, but I found with the extra weapons in it really helps with tough units like Plagues or MCs etc.

 

Hope that helps.

[SamaNagol]

If you have been playing BA in 4th and 5th ed using the PDF 'dex you will know that RAs are never there to lead an assault, they are there to tilt the balance in your favour by supporting your small elite assault units and guarantee a win.

 

Which is why I really like 6 man squads in Razorbacks. I can get them to wherever I need pretty quickly and ensure they make it there without losing numbers to small arms fire. Let them pile out next turn after popping smoke and Support Mephiston, a Dreadnought or some DC and lever the odds of victory heavily in my favour.

 

Blood Angels, in my opinion, are best played using their mobility to overwhelm a weak point of the enemy's line by, as mentioned above, not fighting a fair fight. You can redeploy your army nearly every turn be it using Fast rhino chasis Transports or using Jump Packs. It should mean that you can feint and draw your enemy out of position and then hit a weak point with your incredibly mobile shock troops.

 

Slamming Mephiston and a unit of Assault Marines with a Priest in to create a breach in your opponents defence and then systematically pick off the rest of his force using weight of numbers is the most satisfying feeling in the world.

[AustonT]

I dunno maybe I'll go against the grain on this one. Since the new codex I have shelved all my Jump Packs. I don't actualy have any of my old lists handy but I ran a chappie JP with Hg ras ras ras ras pred baal whirlwind and a huge dc. Now I run Libby hg and ras in Rbs x4 baal vindi vindi pred. For Shnits und giggles I played my old army with my new with a friend at the helm. Tabled the JP army in 3. JRAS are gimped IMHO in the new codex

[Black Memories]

If those 10 man ras were equipped with melta guns they should have deep struck and ravaged that mech list. BA mech vs BA DoA is lopsided in the doa's favor, imo. Dropping down the melta guns and smashing whatever 5 man junk squad is inside is too easy. The only reasonable counter to this that i've seen is using a mech deathstar unit as a counter assault threat. The issue is if he brings down 3 ras thats 6 melta shots the openning turn at your targets. The vindis are the only thing on the table that can really hurt a DoA list from what you said you took. Bizarre results. Maybe I'm basing this on ideal wargear vs actual wargear used however, that tends to make a big difference.

 

I personally like to use at least 1 10 man RAS with packs and a priest for them. They can drop on objectives, be anti tank, be an anvil unit, whatever I need them to do. They're a lot like gray hunters in the fact that they're just a good solid all-around unit. They wont beat the DC or assault terminators or a hive tyrant deathstar, but they're a solid group that can be a real threat to anything weaker in assault than them and to any vehicles. RAS are one of the best anti-tank units BA have available to them.

[AustonT]

My opponent was EXTREEMLY unlucky, and I'm not untalented at running my list to minimize it's short comings. He did try to drop on me and he got pie plated, shot, flamed, and assaulted. It was unfortunate but not unexpected. I also played a guy a couple months back that ran a list actually optimized for the new codex instead of the PDF, I didn't table him as fast but he was combat ineffective by turn 4 and the tourny timer hit. it's not that JRAS are inherently flawed, they just haven't been working in my sole experience. 5ed has been Melta heavy and I'm not a fan. But Ras tend to go squish.

[knife&fork]

I've thought about replacing RAS with VV, The higher costs is well worth it if they actually get into CC since RAS stand a much larger chance getting shot to pieces and severely reduced in effectiveness before seeing the first combat. The problem is that VV compete with the fast attack slots against the best units to replace the deep striking meltas in the RAS, MM attack bikes, baals and speeders.

 

Any suggestions?

[Black Memories]

My opponent was EXTREEMLY unlucky, and I'm not untalented at running my list to minimize it's short comings. He did try to drop on me and he got pie plated, shot, flamed, and assaulted. It was unfortunate but not unexpected. I also played a guy a couple months back that ran a list actually optimized for the new codex instead of the PDF, I didn't table him as fast but he was combat ineffective by turn 4 and the tourny timer hit. it's not that JRAS are inherently flawed, they just haven't been working in my sole experience. 5ed has been Melta heavy and I'm not a fan. But Ras tend to go squish.

 

 

Extremely odd to me that he wasn't able to neutralize your pie plates on the drop with his ras. That's exactly the purpose I use them for in a lot of games if I know my opponent is going to try and pie plate me. I'm not knocking your player skills here. It's just the fact that from personal experience JRAS are extremely effective at drop-in tank busting, especially against high threat tanks that may attempt to kill my DC/assault terms or whatever else after they disembark (or the jump packers themselves).

 

One of the benefits to me of JRAS is that you can hold them in reserve to keep them out of enemy fire. Yes you can deploy them on the table just fine, but if I know that unit will take a pounding I will simply choose not to place them on the table until later. This works a significant amount of time. Also the ability to deep strike a scoring unit late is extremely effective, especially against slower armies.

 

I've had a lot of success with JRAS, razor squads, and my new toy the RAS w/ sang+hero in a LR. Expensive but solid troop choice. I'm not a huge fan of RAS in rhinos, however.