DarKnight Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The "If I Was The Warmaster" thread got me to thinking, exempting that the point of the story was to be the death of Horus and the internment of the Emperor upon the Golden Throne, with the forces at the respective sides disposal and the incoming Legions did Horus "realistically" lose? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominicus Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Horus -Night Lords -Sons of Horus -Iron Warriors -Emperor's Children -World Eaters -Death Guard *Word Bearers Emperor -Imperial Fists -Blood Angels -White Scars *Space Wolves *Ultramarines *Dark Angels *In transit to Terra The Loyalists were outnumbered any way you look at it; a primarch was already dead and three Loyalist Legions in shambles, with the Dark Angels, Ultras, and the Wolves dealing with threats from the Night Lords, Word Beareres, and the Thousand Sons respectively and still a ways away from Terra, the zLoyalists were outnumbered. Numbers-wise, Horus had already won at Isstvan V with the destruction wreaked upon the Hands, Salamanders, and RG. Zeal and leadership-wise, the Loyalists had Dorn, a master siege/defense expert, Sanguinius, the most beatific of the primarchs, and, of course, the Emperor, who easily commanded respect from his remaining loyal legions without question. The renegades had Horus. Loyalists win that one. In numbers, Horus won realistically. In reality, the Emperor ripped Horus' soul apart. End of story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 'We are Alpharius'. Don't forget the wild card, man. That could've been enough to eff up either side's plans, depending on which side they took. Always fun to guess, lol. But yeah, the Emperor totally knocked the snot out of Horus. Still fun to dream of the possiblities, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The thing that always gets me is how 40k centers on the last showdown between opposing commanders. It harkens back to the glory days of combat on real-world Terra, when armies would fold up and die if their leader was killed or struck down. There are also examples in our history of how armies have fought ever more ferociously to recover the body of a fallen leader, or to retrieve and save him if he was only wounded and struck down. These armies are looked at ever more admirably. My concern is... if the Adeptus Astartes are the pinnacle of humanity's fighting forces, wouldn't they fight even more ferociously if their leader is struck down? Wouldn't that mean that the Traitor Legions should have pressed the attack after so many important personages were struck down, including Horus and the Emperor? They clearly had the upper hand until that point, when they essentially gave up and ran away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominicus Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 'We are Alpharius'. Don't forget the wild card, man. That could've been enough to eff up either side's plans, depending on which side they took. Always fun to guess, lol. Well, Alpharius was never planning to joinnthe Siege of Terra, I believe. Too much open space, not enough room for subterfuge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 The thing that always gets me is how 40k centers on the last showdown between opposing commanders. It harkens back to the glory days of combat on real-world Terra, when armies would fold up and die if their leader was killed or struck down. There are also examples in our history of how armies have fought ever more ferociously to recover the body of a fallen leader, or to retrieve and save him if he was only wounded and struck down. These armies are looked at ever more admirably. My concern is... if the Adeptus Astartes are the pinnacle of humanity's fighting forces, wouldn't they fight even more ferociously if their leader is struck down? Wouldn't that mean that the Traitor Legions should have pressed the attack after so many important personages were struck down, including Horus and the Emperor? They clearly had the upper hand until that point, when they essentially gave up and ran away. Good point but with personalities such as the Primarchs had, only Horus could hold them together. With his death I can't imagine all of the others bothering to tolerate one another even long enough to complete their victory. Horus-Night Lords -Sons of Horus -Iron Warriors -Emperor's Children -World Eaters -Death Guard *Word Bearers Emperor -Imperial Fists -Blood Angels -White Scars *Space Wolves *Ultramarines *Dark Angels *In transit to Terra The Loyalists were outnumbered any way you look at it; a primarch was already dead and three Loyalist Legions in shambles, with the Dark Angels, Ultras, and the Wolves dealing with threats from the Night Lords, Word Beareres, and the Thousand Sons respectively and still a ways away from Terra, the zLoyalists were outnumbered. Numbers-wise, Horus had already won at Isstvan V with the destruction wreaked upon the Hands, Salamanders, and RG. Zeal and leadership-wise, the Loyalists had Dorn, a master siege/defense expert, Sanguinius, the most beatific of the primarchs, and, of course, the Emperor, who easily commanded respect from his remaining loyal legions without question. The renegades had Horus. Loyalists win that one. In numbers, Horus won realistically. In reality, the Emperor ripped Horus' soul apart. End of story. Don't forget the not inconsiderable might of the *ugh* Dark Mechanicus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Good point but with personalities such as the Primarchs had, only Horus could hold them together. With his death I can't imagine all of the others bothering to tolerate one another even long enough to complete their victory. Fair enough. My only issue with "holding it together" is... they had basically already won. The confrontation between the Emperor and Horus was a last ditch hail mary pass- and it only half worked. I mean, the Big E falling in battle is more significant than Horus falling in battle. Equate it to the real-world inspiration for the story for a moment. Lucifer assaults Heaven and has God and his angels outnumbered 2:1. God takes the fight to Lucifer and they are both struck down. What fills the vacuum? Lucifer's angels now outnumber God's angels 2:1 and they don't have God to lead them and empower them. See what I mean? Losing the Emperor was huge. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Good point but with personalities such as the Primarchs had, only Horus could hold them together. With his death I can't imagine all of the others bothering to tolerate one another even long enough to complete their victory. Fair enough. My only issue with "holding it together" is... they had basically already won. The confrontation between the Emperor and Horus was a last ditch hail mary pass- and it only half worked. I mean, the Big E falling in battle is more significant than Horus falling in battle. Equate it to the real-world inspiration for the story for a moment. Lucifer assaults Heaven and has God and his angels outnumbered 2:1. God takes the fight to Lucifer and they are both struck down. What fills the vacuum? Lucifer's angels now outnumber God's angels 2:1 and they don't have God to lead them and empower them. See what I mean? Losing the Emperor was huge. :angry: Good analogy but just as important as winning is who is in charge after winning, you could say lets sort that out after we win but I can think of three Primarchs (Perturabo, Curze, maybe Fulgrim) that probably wouldn't care who was in charge if left alone to their own devices and the Emperor was dead. Is Angron going to listen to Lorgar? Doubt it, as far as I know not even Abbadon has had Primarch assistance during his Black Crusades and he is the chosen of chaos. The logical thing would be to kill the Emperor and let the rest sort itself out but Chaos doesn't lend itself to rationality. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
esinhorn Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Do not forget all the Blood Angels went buck wild when Sanguinius was killed. They left the walls and took the battle to the enemy with a rage that would make even made the World Eaters seem pale by comparison. And if all was lost I would think the Emperor had some sort of doomsady device that takes it all out. They could of fesibly virus bombed Terra when all the traitors were at the walls,they would be safe in the Palace while the bulk of the enemy ground forces would be caught out there outside the walls. Who cares if the populace of Terra is wiped out,the VIP's would be in the Palace,just import anyone you need from the trillions of humans elsewhere. Blood thirsty I know but so was the Emp Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochaim Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Tactically it seems that there are a couple main points not being thrown into consideration. 1) As any student of military tactics throughout the ages will tell you, walls are a HUGE equalizer. There have been many instances where fewer and/or inferior troops have been able to hold out against a much larger attacking force because they were behind fortifications. Assaulting a fortified position causes enormous casulities as the attacker is forced into prepared kill zones and then still has to make it up and over the walls. 2) The loyalist legions were not the only ones standing on those walls. According to previously established fluff (at least until Matt Ward gets his grubby paws on it) there was loyal mechanicus, HUGE numbers of Imperial Army and the Adeptus Custodes as well. 3) Not everyone was behind the walls. With the white Scars free to strike behind the lines as well as the guerilla forces that would have been operating amongst the citizens the traitor legions would not have been able to field all of their forces directly into the assault on the Emperor's Palace. 4) Not all the traitor legions were doing their jobs. Again fluff throughout has stated that the Emperor's Children were busy slaughtering the population of Terra and generally doing whatever depraved thing popped into their head at that time. oh one other thing. The Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars weren't at Istavvan. In destroying/mauling the 3 loyalist legions there as well as the earlier action "weeding" out the traitor legions of any that were still loyal all of the traitor legions had taken significant damage even before fighting their way across the Imperium to reach Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Rathul Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Tactically it seems that there are a couple main points not being thrown into consideration. 1) As any student of military tactics throughout the ages will tell you, walls are a HUGE equalizer. There have been many instances where fewer and/or inferior troops have been able to hold out against a much larger attacking force because they were behind fortifications. Assaulting a fortified position causes enormous casulities as the attacker is forced into prepared kill zones and then still has to make it up and over the walls. 2) The loyalist legions were not the only ones standing on those walls. According to previously established fluff (at least until Matt Ward gets his grubby paws on it) there was loyal mechanicus, HUGE numbers of Imperial Army and the Adeptus Custodes as well. 3) Not everyone was behind the walls. With the white Scars free to strike behind the lines as well as the guerilla forces that would have been operating amongst the citizens the traitor legions would not have been able to field all of their forces directly into the assault on the Emperor's Palace. 4) Not all the traitor legions were doing their jobs. Again fluff throughout has stated that the Emperor's Children were busy slaughtering the population of Terra and generally doing whatever depraved thing popped into their head at that time. Also, the traitor legions had already a lot of substantial losses from previous engagements. They were not at full strength. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I like all of your points, but this one I have a reply to: 4) Not all the traitor legions were doing their jobs. Again fluff throughout has stated that the Emperor's Children were busy slaughtering the population of Terra and generally doing whatever depraved thing popped into their head at that time. Despite this (and everything else), Chaos was winning. The Emperor going to meet Horus in single combat was a desperation move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochaim Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Chaos couldn't have been wining by much. Yes the strike on horus was something of a hail mary but horus dropped his shields to allow it only because he had no more time. The space wolves and dark angels were close enough that it was a hail mary pass on the part of horus as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobansa Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Arguably, the real question is why did the big E accept the gambit? He had reinforcements that would drive the heretics off within hours of arriving. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 He got all fatherly i guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2806983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Gladius Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 A massive point missing. Yes Chaos were winning, but they hadnt won! thats vital to remember, seeing as three legions are on there way as re-inforcements. Chaos knew that even despite the loss of Big E, they wouldnt be able to take the walls, defeat the fists/BA/scars and re-fortify in time. As such they would be caught in the open between the walls of the palace, and the wolves and ultras. They might well have been winning, but ultimatly, they ran out of time! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazabi24 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Tactically it seems that there are a couple main points not being thrown into consideration. 1) As any student of military tactics throughout the ages will tell you, walls are a HUGE equalizer. There have been many instances where fewer and/or inferior troops have been able to hold out against a much larger attacking force because they were behind fortifications. Assaulting a fortified position causes enormous casulities as the attacker is forced into prepared kill zones and then still has to make it up and over the walls. 2) The loyalist legions were not the only ones standing on those walls. According to previously established fluff (at least until Matt Ward gets his grubby paws on it) there was loyal mechanicus, HUGE numbers of Imperial Army and the Adeptus Custodes as well. 3) Not everyone was behind the walls. With the white Scars free to strike behind the lines as well as the guerilla forces that would have been operating amongst the citizens the traitor legions would not have been able to field all of their forces directly into the assault on the Emperor's Palace. 4) Not all the traitor legions were doing their jobs. Again fluff throughout has stated that the Emperor's Children were busy slaughtering the population of Terra and generally doing whatever depraved thing popped into their head at that time. Also, the traitor legions had already a lot of substantial losses from previous engagements. They were not at full strength. True, since it was noted that many traitor legions were reduced to half strength by the End of Istvaan III, and reduced even more so by Istvann V. On the other hand, the White Scars and Imperial fists didn't see much combat and were roughly full strength. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Fair enough. My only issue with "holding it together" is... they had basically already won. The confrontation between the Emperor and Horus was a last ditch hail mary pass- and it only half worked. I mean, the Big E falling in battle is more significant than Horus falling in battle. Equate it to the real-world inspiration for the story for a moment. Lucifer assaults Heaven and has God and his angels outnumbered 2:1. God takes the fight to Lucifer and they are both struck down. What fills the vacuum? Lucifer's angels now outnumber God's angels 2:1 and they don't have God to lead them and empower them. See what I mean? Losing the Emperor was huge. :lol: Actually Michael leads the loyalists. Almost a "You're not even worth it" from God to Lucifer? (please no-one take that as the official viewpoint of anyone :P ) Also see other people's posts with reference to the numbers. Several of Horus' legions are way below pre heresy strength (World Eaters especially) And the Alpha Legion, Night Lords and large chunks of the Word Bearers are hiding in the Malestrom having failed to destroy the Ultramarines. Someone said that it was a desperate gambit by the Emperor to strike at Horus directly. While this could be true(we could argue Horus only stood a chance because the Emperor held back), it was just as desperate if not more so for Horus to offer the chance. If he is in such a dominant position there would be no need to take such a massive risk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Horus offers the chance because he detects the Space Wolves and the DA on their way and realises his time is up and that is his best hope. Horus offers the chance because he detects the Space Wolves and the DA on their way and realises his time is up and that is his best hope. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Rites of Battle says the Imperial Fists were a small Legion, but with tons of combat experience. This is likely due to the fact they were the Emperor's mobile reserve (and your reserves should be veterans, tactically) that would exploit the gains made by the other legions. This is why the Iron Warriors always felt as if the Imperial Fists would steal their thunder, the Iron Warriors would be responsible for closing the noose and cracking the walls, then the Imperial Fists would storm them. After Perturabo joined Horus' fleets and Dorn joined the Emperor's the Imperial Fists began acting more as the Praetorians we see during the Heresy, finalized at Ullanor. So just because the Imperial Fists were at Terra for 7 years doesn't mean they sat their with 100,000 brothers. I'm thinking more along the lines of 20,000 to 50,000. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 It's worth remember that while every legion would be suffering horrific casualties during the war, some legions would be better placed to replace losses. I'd imagine most of the loyalist legions (especially the Ultramarines) stepped up recruitment practices as soon as they heard how serious the Heresy was. In contrast, I could see several of the traitor legions(Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard) not bothering, or even losing the means to recruit effectively during the heresy. Iron Warriors lost their homeworld, Luna Wolve's homeworld was near Terra, so their HQ was probably compromised pretty early on. Night Lord's lost their homeworld as well. Losing the homeworld means losing a phenomenal amount of gene seed, and equipment. Destroying the means of several legions to engage in a protracted war. Add in the purging of loyalists in the legions, and it's not that surprising that the loyalists did so well, especially considering they had plenty of time to fortify the palace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
isilvra Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'm seeing lots of talk about the ground war but we seem to be forgetting that Horus had huge orbital and air supremacy. Even if the HA and SW legions were about to arrive they would have never made it to the serface. Why he didn't just turn the palace district to dust from orbit first or deploy a localized virus weapon to thin out the Imperial Armys number I'll never know, it's not like void sheilds are much good against the life eater virus is it?. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Styphus Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I'm seeing lots of talk about the ground war but we seem to be forgetting that Horus had huge orbital and air supremacy. Even if the HA and SW legions were about to arrive they would have never made it to the serface. Why he didn't just turn the palace district to dust from orbit first or deploy a localized virus weapon to thin out the Imperial Armys number I'll never know, it's not like void sheilds are much good against the life eater virus is it?. What's the point of claiming your ultimate prize if it's nothing but bio-goop and charred walls? He wanted the throne as his own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I'm seeing lots of talk about the ground war but we seem to be forgetting that Horus had huge orbital and air supremacy. Even if the HA and SW legions were about to arrive they would have never made it to the serface. Why he didn't just turn the palace district to dust from orbit first or deploy a localized virus weapon to thin out the Imperial Armys number I'll never know, it's not like void sheilds are much good against the life eater virus is it?. What's the point of claiming your ultimate prize if it's nothing but bio-goop and charred walls? He wanted the throne as his own. Is there anything that's absolutely essential on Terra to Horus's rule? All that would matter in the end is victory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Its humanity's birth-world, and the center of power for the Emperor whom Horus sought to supplant. Is controlling it absolutely necessary for Horus to claim the title of Emperor? No. But its symbolic value is HUGE, and in order to claim victory, he had to get rid of Dad -- who was on Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/#findComment-2807762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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