Commander Gitsnik Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 On the whole I don't think we've covered the major points necessary (touched on them somewhat though). "Historic record" tells us that there were, at the least, a couple of legions days/weeks away. This would probably be enough, in terms of math-hammer/numbers to redress the balance, with the traitors still coming out a little further on top. And if we can get a couple of loyalist legions through, odds on we can get another traitor legion in. So why the big kerfuffle? The main point of interest is not necessarily legion size, but timing. The traitor legions were doing pretty well screwing with the population and penetrating the walls. They got as far as the Eternity Gate after all, a feat that a lot of imperial doctrine seems to gloss over. This wasn't them landing on the front-frakking-doorstep, they'd penetrated X-far into the Imperial palace itself to get there. Someone said walls are a great equaliser and he wasn't wrong, but still the loyalists and the titan legions were doing their thing. Timing then, is the question and the answer all in one. Any two legions, standing toe to toe on a football field would probably wipe each other out to a man with bolters given the chance. Demoralisation and losses on both sides are going to weaken the forces and all the rest of it. At this point, Horus is winning and the Emperor is likely to get pwned (assuming they are of an equal footing, which fluff-wise they weren't, but anyway) - but then a change of plans. The Emperor is getting reinforced. That's the reason the Imperials won. Attrition is a harlequin to deal with, but knowing that the other side is about to get reinforced by another, what, 20% of its forces? Fresh and angry, with all the armour and ammunition they can carry. AND they have at least one space port to land in. So Horus dropped his shields, scattered the attackers, and tried his hardest. Taking the leaders out of the equation (and thus the removal of the Chaos God's focus and assistance), this is - I think - the reason the siege was won. WE HAD FRESHER MEN, and in those narrow walls their numbers counted for a-lot-of-blood-angels. Or nothing. etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2807778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
isilvra Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Its humanity's birth-world, and the center of power for the Emperor whom Horus sought to supplant. Is controlling it absolutely necessary for Horus to claim the title of Emperor? No. But its symbolic value is HUGE, and in order to claim victory, he had to get rid of Dad -- who was on Terra. True, we know from age of darkness that Horus understands symbolic value. But he is also willing to forgo the symbolic victory if it looks like he's losing. Anyway virus bombs only deverstate a plant on mass if the methane from the decomposition is ignited. a locilized strike on the palace district wouldn't cause that much structural damage and i'm sure the empeor would surive it so Horus could still have his showdown with daddy. Even if the emperor did die he could always lie about it. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2808364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Styphus Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Anyway virus bombs only deverstate a plant on mass if the methane from the decomposition is ignited. a locilized strike on the palace district wouldn't cause that much structural damage and i'm sure the empeor would surive it so Horus could still have his showdown with daddy. Even if the emperor did die he could always lie about it. :D And then... the Emperor's Holy Water Heater's pilot light kicks on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2808885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarSpirit Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I'm seeing lots of talk about the ground war but we seem to be forgetting that Horus had huge orbital and air supremacy. Even if the HA and SW legions were about to arrive they would have never made it to the serface. Why he didn't just turn the palace district to dust from orbit first or deploy a localized virus weapon to thin out the Imperial Armys number I'll never know, it's not like void sheilds are much good against the life eater virus is it?. What's the point of claiming your ultimate prize if it's nothing but bio-goop and charred walls? He wanted the throne as his own. Is there anything that's absolutely essential on Terra to Horus's rule? All that would matter in the end is victory. It's like at Istvan III, Horus is stubborn. He could have crushed the loyalists with virus bomb from the Start but wished to show he was the best. At terra he wished again to show that he was better than big E by first crushing his armies then by confronting him in single combat. By virusbombing you just show that you had a bigger weapon not that you were better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2808897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Istvaan III had a massive tactical liability for Horus. Angron launched an assault without his say so. As for bombing Terra to pieces? Do you really think their weren't bunkers or anything else there? Horus HAD to kill the Emperor to defeat the Imperium, since that erodes the whole basis of Loyalist loyality. It's a similar principle to why air power alone cannot win wars in our world; you need ground troops to clear enemy forces out, hold ground and ensure you kill what you want to kill. And if you need infantry you probably need tanks and other vehicles too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2808919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Horus didn't have a big enough ego. I would have turned Terra into lots of chunks of floating rocks via sustained orbital bombardments. Found a new planet, called it "Horusland" and built a throne the size of the equator to sit on. Then I would have ordered pizza and not tipped the delivery guy. Then I would have Angron, Magnus, Lorgar and the guys around for a party and made them all call me "Big Papa Chaos". Stupid Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2808921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Horus didn't have a big enough ego. I would have turned Terra into lots of chunks of floating rocks via sustained orbital bombardments. Found a new planet, called it "Horusland" and built a throne the size of the equator to sit on. Then I would have ordered pizza and not tipped the delivery guy. Then I would have Angron, Magnus, Lorgar and the guys around for a party and made them all call me "Big Papa Chaos". Stupid Horus. The mind of Abaddon, anyone? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2809087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I'm seeing lots of talk about the ground war but we seem to be forgetting that Horus had huge orbital and air supremacy. Even if the HA and SW legions were about to arrive they would have never made it to the serface. Why he didn't just turn the palace district to dust from orbit first or deploy a localized virus weapon to thin out the Imperial Armys number I'll never know, it's not like void sheilds are much good against the life eater virus is it?. What's the point of claiming your ultimate prize if it's nothing but bio-goop and charred walls? He wanted the throne as his own. Is there anything that's absolutely essential on Terra to Horus's rule? All that would matter in the end is victory. It's like at Istvan III, Horus is stubborn. He could have crushed the loyalists with virus bomb from the Start but wished to show he was the best. At terra he wished again to show that he was better than big E by first crushing his armies then by confronting him in single combat. By virusbombing you just show that you had a bigger weapon not that you were better. The big E is the only one who could have realisticly opposed Horus who was powered by all 4 Gods. All that matters in war is that you make the enemy die for his cause. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2809152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazabi24 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Horus didn't have a big enough ego. I would have turned Terra into lots of chunks of floating rocks via sustained orbital bombardments. Found a new planet, called it "Horusland" and built a throne the size of the equator to sit on. Then I would have ordered pizza and not tipped the delivery guy. Then I would have Angron, Magnus, Lorgar and the guys around for a party and made them all call me "Big Papa Chaos". Stupid Horus. Assuming that the emperor was psyker enough to be able to make a shield, no amount of orbital bombardment will break Terra's shields. It was clearly stated that a group of no-name psykers from Magnus's coven managed to sustain psychic shields strong enough to make Space Wolves's exterminatus a non factor, forcing a ground batte. Also the Dark Angel's void shield on caliban managed to survive the collapse of an entire planet. All things considered, in the worst case scenario, all that would happen to terra would be that earth explodes, and a really well shielded asteroid/Imperial Palace would remain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233217-siege-of-terra-tactically-accurate/page/2/#findComment-2809216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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