Brother Excedis Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Hey guys and guyesses. I'm fairly new here (been stalking some fluff discussions) and had a question for you guys. I've seen a lot of discussion over many of the special units or characters of the new BA codex but I have yet to see any discussion over what I think is the hardest hitting unit there, Sanguinor. I use him to absolutely amazing effect and assassination. I was just wondering what some of you more experienced players thought of him. Thanks, Brother Excedis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Legion Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I think I had a discussion regarding that a while back, but Sanguinor isnt bad Expensive as sin, but it really depends what you are going to use him for. There is no question about it, he survives till the end of the game each time, but that just means i'm not using him to his full potential. I'd use him with a squad of honour guard with plasma guns. That's been working out well for me so far. But for the points....I rather put them towards abaal pred and a librarian with JP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protector of Titan Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Seeing as my friends and I play nothing but 3000 pts+, the cost isn't a problem for me, but I like to run the Sanguinor with a Sanguinary Guard w/ Death Masks. Pretty boss, IMO, but again that unit+IC costs 500 points... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Sanguinor is a pretty strong combat character on his own, but he will almost always start a fight down by 1-2 wounds due to not being part of a squad. Given his cost, however, he can't really be justified as just a "I am very punchy!" guy the way Mephiston can; rather, you need to be taking maximum advantage of his aura. This probably means Sanguinary Guard or something similar to really make that +1A hit home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Can't run around alone as good as mephy can...Weak against alot more units compared to mephy...costs more than mephy...weaker against most types of shooting than mephy... slower than mephy... dosn't provide a psychic hood like mephy... can't kill multi wounds units as well as mephy... Buffs units around him unlike mephy... and he ain't held back by runes of warding, shadow of the warp or other psychic defences... though Mephy is almost as fast and hard hitting even if he dosn't get a singel power through... As you might have guess I don't like the sanguinor... Tried to make him work in several games... Though he never shines like other characters... (like mephy/a librarian...) His buffs are good... but I'd rather run a sanguinary priest for about 1/5th his cost if you want buffs. He makes a great center piece for your army though!... But I'd still go with mephy if you want a hardhitting HQ... (Mephy = Mephistons nickname!) (I stopped running the sanguinor when a few slugga boys killed him in the shooting phase...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Excedis Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 I usually run him real close to a SG squad with death masks and the chapter banner. THey jump around in cover until I can get him into combat or I have my tanks, DC, and assault squad run screen until he can get in. Once He is in I seem to have real good luck. His sheer number of attacks at S5 and as a MC power weapon seem to take everything out for me. I never seem to have any trouble with him getting shot up, as usally he cant be seen :D . Thanks for the response guys. I am very curious as to how others use him for some insight in how to use him myself :P . Plus he angers my opponents greatly because they can never seem to cause more then one wound on him. I think he's only ever been reduced to 1 once...against IG. And then he just storms through everything in his path with that 18" assault range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 *snip* Sanguinor has Eternal Warrior and an invulnerable save. Those things are pretty important. Mephiston is better at chopping down squads of dudes, but Sanguinor tends to be better against an opposing melee powerhouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.darkness Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 He terrible, nuff said... No but seriously, he is. He may be a powerhouse, but still only one guy, who can't join units, is T4, with a 3++ save. That just isn't good enough. On top of that he is 275 pts. That is far too much for any model unless it affects your whole army in a huge way, like giving them all blood talons. All he does is give extra attacks to within six. Within twelve, maybe, within, 6? It's not worth it. For just over that amount of points i can get a LR, with a sanguinary priest inside. That will give far more to the army, is more survivable, looks scarier and affects a much larger portion of the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Can't run around alone as good as mephy can Granted he has lower Toughness and Wounds but I think this is compensated for by the 3++ and Eternal Warrior Weak against alot more units compared to mephy You shouldn't be throwing them up against the same units as they are very different beasts. costs more than mephy Agreed but not by a huge amount weaker against most types of shooting than mephy Again, 3++ and Eternal Warrior pretty much evens out the shooting slower than mephy Not really. Mephiston has Fleet but Sanguinor will always be able to use his Jump Pack, regardless of hoods, perils of the warp etc dosn't provide a psychic hood like mephy True but has other utility that makes up for it can't kill multi wounds units as well as mephy Only if he uses one of his psychic powers to activate the force weapon and assuming no hoods, shadow in the warp etc Don't want to come across as a Sanguinor fanboi, truth be told I rarely use either Meph or Sang, but don't think the difference in the two is quite as much as stated in Eorek's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgaryBA Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Run both. Meph + Sang. Use Meph to take on all the squishy parts of an army, and Sang to bow up and assassinate HQ's. Expensive as all hell, but it's been working to amazing effect for me. It's a LOT of points spent on 2 models, but each in their own right is a game changer. Meph blows up normal units ridiculously fast, but I've yet to see him take down a a swarm lord + guard. Don't underestimate the 3++ eternal warrior with re-rolls to hits and wounds on a chosen HQ. Right now I run these 2 in an 1850 list with 2 rhino assault squads, a jumper assault squad and an assault termie squad with a chappy in a SR, and a priest in a rhino (1 of the assault squads is 9 man). The Sanguinor's blessing + aura on a fisty sgt isn't anything to turn at either. 5 fist attacks on the charge with WS5 and 2 wounds. Then throw in the +1A aura for a couple of those squads and even possibly meph too! Very Punchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Seeing as my friends and I play nothing but 3000 pts+, the cost isn't a problem for me, but I like to run the Sanguinor with a Sanguinary Guard w/ Death Masks. Pretty boss, IMO, but again that unit+IC costs 500 points... The Sanguinor is not an IC. He can't join a unit. I have never used the Sanguinor, but I think he can work well in the right list. You need a list to take advantage of his +1 attack radius to really get the benefit of the Sanguinor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 @ morollan Mephy in cover has a 4+ save, 2 higher toughness 2 more wounds... And eternal warrior dosn't really matter in the shooting phase cause the weapons that can kill a toughness 6 character are very...limited... yes...it's true that they are different... But anything that ain't running around with either shadowfield + agoniser, storm shield + thunder hammer or blessing of the blood god I'd have to say mephy would sing at the sanguinor "anything you can do I can do better" 3++ and eternal warrior evens out shooting? T4, 3 wounds 2+/3++ vs 5 wounds, toughness 6 2+/4+ coversave? also eternal warrior really only matters if you get hit by a wratihcannon / something with Strenght:D (which are kinda rare in none apocalyptic games... He is slower... Mephy even with a rune priest dispelling him will travel longer than the sanguinor due to 45%-ish chance of getting wings + fleet True, the sanguinor is great at buffing... it's slightly better than the protection you get from a psychichood(situational ofc) And regarding kill multi wounds units... Say nobs: Strenght 10 = instant kill, C'tan: force weapon= instant kill. And even if he can't get any psychic powers off... mephy still swings harder than sanguinor s5(s6 on charge) MC power weapon 4-5 attacks vs constant s6(s10 if psychic power is up...with reroll to hit) 5-6 attacks, And also... this is perhaps a minor thing... but mephy has a plasma-pistol!:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Cover is an external factor so you can't really use it in a comparison. In any event, you're not always going to be in cover, especially given Meph's awesome combat skills when used against grunts. The tank you're running behind can suddenly explode or you kill the entire unit you're fighting and with a poor consolidate roll you're then standing in the middle of the battlefield with no cover and a giant 'SHOOT ME' sign on your back. Sanguinor can do that and still have a 3++ save. I'm not saying Mephiston is bad or anything but he's not so awesome that the Sanguinor is totally overwhelmed by him, especially after the latest FAQ and no recasting psychic powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Cover is an external factor so you can't really use it in a comparison. Would you not be foolish not to? What games are any players worth their salt not using cover with Mephy? And if the purpose is on paper comparison, then the point is moot since there is no in-game application. Random math hammer interlude. It takes 36 GEq lasgun shots to wound Sanguinor. It takes 72 GEq lasgun shots to wound Mephy. It takes 18 MEq bolter shots to wound Sanguinor. It takes 54 MEq bolter shots to wound Mephy. It takes 12 MEq Heavy Bolter shots to wound Sanguinor. It takes 24 MEq Heavy Bolter shots to wound Mephy. It takes 11 MEq S6 shots to wound Sanguinor It takes 18 MEq S6 shots to wound Mephy Small arms fire and poor AP shots, Sang sucks it big time. Anything S8 with ap3 or worse Sang and Mephy will have the same results. However, here it gets interesting. It takes 6 MEq Plasma gun shots to wound Sanguinor It takes 5 MEq Plasma gun shots to wound Mephy - OUT OF COVER. So, 10 shots in cover. Better than Sang. Anything after this, ie: S8 and AP2 or better, then Sang is better. This is the problem with Sang. As far as im concerned, those stats speak for themselves. The difficulty too, is that in combat, sheer weight of numbers will take the Sang down. Mephy will only go down with weight of numbers x2 and/or a special weapons. Its also interesting to note that VS. S4 power weapons in combat, Mephy and Sang have the same odds of taking a wound. If the rumours about 6th ed are true and character models will get two saves, then the Sang will be.....golden. ;) Until then, he remains in his blister- unpainted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 As I mentioned before, you don't always have the luxury of cover but fair enough on the shooting with small arms. Meph clearly comes out on top there. My bad. Once you get into combat though, anything that ignores armour saves and/or inflicts instant death is going to have a much harder time against Sanguinor than Mephiston, which kind of evens it out. Given the number of such attacks these days (the entire grey knight army, for example) I think this is a good enough reason to at least consider the Sanguinor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The Sanguinor is the best choice for an HQ in a DoA army - I like to run him and Dante both - they are an awesome pair and their nerfs to enemy HQ takes units like Abbadon out of the equation. It's easy to deep strike the Sanguinor behind cover with the 1d6" scatter to protect him from small arms fire before he engages the enemy. If you're losing a couple wounds before he charges then you're doing something wrong. Mephiston does not synergize well with DoA lists. G :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The Sanguinor is the best choice for an HQ in a DoA army - I like to run him and Dante both - they are an awesome pair and their nerfs to enemy HQ takes units like Abbadon out of the equation. It's easy to deep strike the Sanguinor behind cover with the 1d6" scatter to protect him from small arms fire before he engages the enemy. If you're losing a couple wounds before he charges then you're doing something wrong. Mephiston does not synergize well with DoA lists. G :) ^This. It took this long for someone to even mention it, that surprises me. In all before debate, someone forgot to mention that Sanguinor has DoA and can enter the MIDDLE of the game to grant buffs into a battle the enemy was not expecting (kind of goes along with his fluff too). JamesI hit the nail on the head, Sanguinor is a support character that CAN hold his own if charged. Let's face it +1 attack for an army who is essentially (and I use that term loosely, so I'd appreciate it if no one jumped on me for saying this) close combat oriented is pretty good. Of course, if you are playing a BA Mech list, you will not select Sanguinor as your HQ. I think we can all agree that Mephy is by far the best unit in the codex, but the question is thoughts on Sanguinor, not "Let's compare Unit A and Unit B" which this discussion has turned into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 edit: ninjaed !! The two psots before the above one!!*** Agree with the above two sentiments. Doing a comparison of two good characters doesnt necessarily discount the one! Sanguinor definitely works with some lists and helps add something cool. I think in a mixed/hybrid list he will work very well too. Rhino RAS, jumpy RAS, Hammer terms in Raider...him behind cover of vehicles till those squads get in combat giving em a nice buff, not to mention a Super Sargent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Yeah he is good in hybrid lists as well. I have some friends who run both Sang and Meph in the same list - it's pretty sick. :P G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 The Sanguinor is an inspirational unit that nerfs the opponents HQ and buffs a regular sargeant. Without even placing him on the board he's already done something. What can Mephiston do off the board? Nothing. Out of combat? Nothing. Mephiston can't even buff his own team mates so comparing him to The Sanguinor is never going to work. They are both completely different characters and should be used accordingly. As what has been said already, The Sanguinor for DoA and Mephiston for Mechanised. But even though I own both models I don't really plan on running either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crimson Cartel Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Cover is an external factor so you can't really use it in a comparison. In any event, you're not always going to be in cover, especially given Meph's awesome combat skills when used against grunts. The tank you're running behind can suddenly explode or you kill the entire unit you're fighting and with a poor consolidate roll you're then standing in the middle of the battlefield with no cover and a giant 'SHOOT ME' sign on your back. Sanguinor can do that and still have a 3++ save. I'm not saying Mephiston is bad or anything but he's not so awesome that the Sanguinor is totally overwhelmed by him, especially after the latest FAQ and no recasting psychic powers. ^ That giant shoot me sign generally applies to both meph and sang I find... hopefully, a good player will be able to use this to their advantage. :) personally, when I have the points, I run meph, but that's mostly because I like meph as a character ,and hate sanguinator... :/ -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatEscape_13 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I tend to hate special characters, as I like to run a force with just vanilla command options. That being said, that is why I like the Sanguinor--it's like the Tyranid's Red Terror. He's not a specific named character, but more a name for a phenomenon. Thus, he is still very playable by those of us (and there are many) who don't use named special characters. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA.Rauk Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Mephiston for me is more of a psychological tool in my lists. It lets me directly affect my opponents deployment and how they play the game until Mephiston is either dead or is done ripping their army apart. Most of the players in my area have made it their personal mission in life to kill my Mephiston model (all pretty and converted up) in every game they get a chance to, even to the point of ignoring -everything- else in my list, save the Stormraven. The fact that I can cause that great of an impact by simply placing my favorite Character on the board is reason alone to take him, and yes- he and Sanguinor are two different beasts. I've never personally felt Sanguinor or any HQ of a similar calibre to be very threatening, however. I have used the Sanguinor in a DoA list and he gave some strong support for my list, but nothing can quite draw a unit of Terminators out of a Landraider like ol' Mephy. With regards to the Sanguinor himself- I dislike his fluff and his character and that he seemed to be spontaneous made up by Ward. I always seem to hate Ward's made up super-charged characters though... It may be that this reason is yet another reason why I have a mark against Sangy, to the point I'd rather run Dante instead in every single list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I've made a 1750 list with the Sanguinor using 3 full assault squads. With sanguinor nearby normal assault marines pretty much become 10 veterans with only one power weapon/fist in it. I had one test game against guard where it all worked pretty well. Keeping a honour guard nearby the Sanguinor makes small arms fire pretty useless and he didn't have enough AP 1+2 weapons except for an infantry blob squad which got owned because I charged it with sanguinor + assault squad. The sergeant with the blessing had a hammer and managed to charge a squadron of 2 basilisks while sanguinor was nearby for 5 hammer attacks on the charge. So far Sanguinor hasn't disappointed me (though other parts of the list have). I'll be running it in a tourney this sunday so I'll try to remember giving the results here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 There is nothing wrong with using named characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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