Wolves and Nikaea

[Grimtooth]

Just got done reading the four page thread that was locked by Lord Rags. Per his recommendation, I did some research to present some new evidence that both sides debating the issue in that thread failed to realize and bring to the discussion.

 

To understand what the Emperor explicitly did at the Council of Nikaea, you need to look at the history of librarians and the creation of the Librarium.

 

Originally sanctioned by the Emperor as a way to control Astartes that developed psychic powers, it was a few primarchs (led by Magnus) that pushed for the open recruitment of individuals with psychic powers to become librarians within the Legions. Magnus was responsible for creating the training doctrine of said Librarians. As has been touched upon in A Thousand Sons, this was pretty much Magnus' pet project. This was his vision for humanity.

 

So now moving forward to the Council of Nikaea we have Magnus being accused of sorcery. Eyewitness accounts as well as what appears to be somewhat of a sting operation by the Space Wolves lead to the Emperor's Decree. Now if you take into account exactly what the Emperor is declaring to be banned (psychic powers) and what he declares to be disbanded (Librarius' within the Legions), you are able to determine that the Emperor is specifically dismantling everything that Magnu's was primarily responsible for creating. This is even revealed in his anger after the Council of Nikaea in A Thousand Sons.

 

So the question remains; why did the Space Wolves appear to disregard the Emperor's decree?

 

The truth of the matter is that the Space Wolves never had a Librariam/Librarius. The rune priests of the Space Wolves were never founded or trained under the doctrines created by Magnus. Their origin is founded within their own shamanistic culture of Fenris, not in the desires or dreams that Magnus had for humanity. The Emperor's decree has absolutely no bearing on the rune priests of the Space Wolves because of this distinction.

 

I have researched this through several sources including the novels, codices (both current and old), and IA articles. I am presenting the fact that can be found by anyone, Space Wolves fan or detractor. To keep this thread open, please discuss the facts as I have presented and not by making claims of fanboyism or bias.

 

Comments/criticisms?

[Billuriye]

Words of the Emperor:

"But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers."

 

Edit: Nevermind, seems like Emperor thinks Librarius and Rune priesthood are different. Which is BS IMO.

[Torvak Kyre]

Even if the Space Wolves were hypocritical by employing the use of psychic powers but moaning about the Thousand Sons using them, it was in the end, The Emperor's order to bring the Legion back to Terra and since the Space Wolves were the Executioners the job fell to them.

 

It was the fact that the Sons weren't complying that was why the Wolves destroyed them. That and the fact that Horus manipulated Russ.

[Grimtooth]

Words of the Emperor:

"But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers."

 

Edit: Nevermind, seems like Emperor thinks Librarius and Rune priesthood are different. Which is BS IMO.

 

I think it is more of a judgement by the Emperor that anything that was associated with Magnus, specifically the Librarian project and his training doctrines in this matter, were tainted by sorcery.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except that command doesn't reference only sorcery, but plain psychic ability as well. The Legions are to "never again employ any psychic powers".

 

Really though, this thread hasn't added anything whatsoever to the previous discussion. Yes, the Librariums were originally created by Magnus, but as we've seen, each Legion implemented the program in their own way. The Storm Seers were basically identical to Rune Priests (using shamanistic powers, nature 'spirits', etc, rather than occult knowledge), yet they were disbanded just like the Thousand Sons program. The Emperor recognised that whatever culture-specific name was given to the organisation of psychic Marines within a Legion, it was still technically a Librarium.

[facmanpob]

Personally, and this is only my take on the matter, I think the big E was worried that Magnus might screw himself up before the webway project was finished and he could be plugged into the Golden Throne, so E tried to get him to stop practising sorcery in the meantime....hence the Emp wasn't too bothered about other Legions carrying on...

 

...In Fallen Angels the Dark Angels seem to have a working Librarius without being stomped on!

[Grimtooth]

Except that command doesn't reference only sorcery, but plain psychic ability as well. The Legions are to "never again employ any psychic powers".

 

Really though, this thread hasn't added anything whatsoever to the previous discussion. Yes, the Librariums were originally created by Magnus, but as we've seen, each Legion implemented the program in their own way. The Storm Seers were basically identical to Rune Priests (using shamanistic powers, nature 'spirits', etc, rather than occult knowledge), yet they were disbanded just like the Thousand Sons program. The Emperor recognised that whatever culture-specific name was given to the organisation of psychic Marines within a Legion, it was still technically a Librarium.

 

Except that is exactly what the Council of Nikaea addressed, sorcery. And the Emperor banning the use of psychic powers taken in the context of what was being addressed would only include those Legions whose training and Librariums were created by Magnus.

 

You have no foundation based on any research that the Storm Seers of the White Scars are anything like the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves. The rune priests are specifically said to be distinct from what was created by Magnus. You do not have that distinction given for the Storm Seers.

 

Lastly, you have absolutely no reference to your last sentence. You stated in the other thread that for all intents and purposes SW rune priests were a Librarium except you are wrong on one very important point; they were never created, trained, or formed by Magnus. Magnus being the one on trial at the Council of Nikaea and being the one whose entire vision for humanity was sanctioned.

 

As I said, that is the distinction between the other thread and tbis one. It is backed up by the fluff and is not conjecture on my part.

[Billuriye]

Emperor should have explained what makes Rune Priests so special and outside of his verdict in their usage of warp.

[Beef]

You have no foundation based on any research that the Storm Seers of the White Scars are anything like the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves. The rune priests are specifically said to be distinct from what was created by Magnus. You do not have that distinction given for the Storm Seers.

 

The storm seers are similar to the Rune Priests in the sence they both use Shamanistic Lore and control the elements, Both societies on Fenris and Cholgis have shamans and are primitive. Also where does it say that the Rune priest were specifically different from what was created by Magnus? I know that the way they used their power is different and that they draw on the power of Fenris (but really they still use the warp in some form or another)

 

Besides if the EMP did really do away with the Librariam project then why do all the chapters still have librarians?

[Sobansa]

Besides if the EMP did really do away with the Librariam project then why do all the chapters still have librarians?

 

The same reason that the ecclesiarchy even exists.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Except that command doesn't reference only sorcery, but plain psychic ability as well. The Legions are to "never again employ any psychic powers".

 

Really though, this thread hasn't added anything whatsoever to the previous discussion. Yes, the Librariums were originally created by Magnus, but as we've seen, each Legion implemented the program in their own way. The Storm Seers were basically identical to Rune Priests (using shamanistic powers, nature 'spirits', etc, rather than occult knowledge), yet they were disbanded just like the Thousand Sons program. The Emperor recognised that whatever culture-specific name was given to the organisation of psychic Marines within a Legion, it was still technically a Librarium.

 

In the other thread it was not mentioned that Magnus/Sanguinius/White Scars Stormseers created the Librarius. We should discuss the impact of Magnus cultivating the Librarius and impact this has with the Nikea trial of Magnus, with further emphasis on why/why not this effects the SW's with the final decision.

 

Anything else, unless it is new and enlightening will force post removals or locked thread.

[Iron_Adam]

This wouldn't be the Only time the wolves completely disregard the law. They have 12 great companies, and number upwards of 2,000

 

 

At the end of battle of the fang, after the 12th company is nearly eradicated, I think they say something like there where 2,000 marines left, or maybe 1,200. Either way it's atleast 200 too many.

 

[Lord Ragnarok]

For reference for the old discussion check here.

 

Many of the things being brought up here were discussed in the locked thread already. Let's not re-hash.

 

Let's also not spiral down in an off topic discussion of SW's size. There have been untold internet hours lost discussing the number of sw's and why. There is another thread in the HH forum discussing this right now.

[Gree]

Except that command doesn't reference only sorcery, but plain psychic ability as well. The Legions are to "never again employ any psychic powers".

 

Really though, this thread hasn't added anything whatsoever to the previous discussion. Yes, the Librariums were originally created by Magnus, but as we've seen, each Legion implemented the program in their own way. The Storm Seers were basically identical to Rune Priests (using shamanistic powers, nature 'spirits', etc, rather than occult knowledge), yet they were disbanded just like the Thousand Sons program. The Emperor recognised that whatever culture-specific name was given to the organisation of psychic Marines within a Legion, it was still technically a Librarium.

 

Except that is exactly what the Council of Nikaea addressed, sorcery. And the Emperor banning the use of psychic powers taken in the context of what was being addressed would only include those Legions whose training and Librariums were created by Magnus.

 

No, not quite, throughout the discussion and indeed the novel sorcery is used interchangably with psychic powers. Mortarion seems to include lightning generation, pyromancy, and telekinesis in his defintion of sorcery, all of which are things Astartes Librarians of the 41st millenium do today and are not related to sorcery (Which is making pacts with daemons).

 

It's not just the Librarians created by Magnus, but all psychic powers that were reacted to negatively, as I brought up before, look at Rubio, the Ultramarine Librarian who was not a power crazed sorcerer and was even recruited for Garro's band of Proto-Grey Knights. in fact the only possible evidence of the conventional definition of sorcery comes from the Thousand Sons. We even have a Storm Seer speaking out against the kinds of practices that the Thousand Sons do and asking for psykers to be trained and regulated carefully. Magnus may have created other Librarius departments, but the Ultramarines and Librarians clearly have different practices and approachs to psykers and sorcery.

 

Now if the Emperor was just getting rid of sorcery then why did he ignore the Storm Seer's own anti-sorcery and pro-regulation speech and ban all psychic powers? In Nikea you have Mortarion associating commonly used psychic powers as sorcery and essentially saying that only Astropaths and Navigators are to be allowed, you have Magnus saying the opposite and you have a third party rejecting the practice of sorcery and going for careful regulation of psychic powers.

 

You have no foundation based on any research that the Storm Seers of the White Scars are anything like the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves. The rune priests are specifically said to be distinct from what was created by Magnus. You do not have that distinction given for the Storm Seers.

 

We have a Storm Seer, in A Thousand Sons expressing much of the same philopsophy as the Rune Priests, granted we don't see much of him. But he expressed a view of psykers that is quite different than Magnus. the Storm Seer states that his powers must be harnessed and yoked and that he must have his worth proved many times before he is allowed to wield the staff of the Storm Seer.

 

You know? Replace ''Storm Seer'' with ''Rune Priest'' in his speech and there is not much of a difference.

[Grimtooth]

There have been a few replies since last night that have brought up the point that the Space Wolves Rune Priest = White Scars Stormseer. I direct you here:

 

http://games-workshop.com/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_ws.html

 

If there is any comparison of the Stormseers to any unit in the Space Wolves it would be the Wolf Priests. Both are said to be responsible for picking new recruits, Wolf Priests being also previously called, Choosers of the Slain.

 

I would also have you note in the IA that I provided a link to of the picture of the Stormseer. He is noted as being a White Scars Librarian Storm Seer. He is noted as being equipped with a Librarius Psychic Hood and and a Force Weapon. This is proof of the Storm Seerms connection and creation via the Librarium. The Storm Seers are a product of Magnus' creation and his vision for humanity. That would be why the Storm Seer stood up in the defense of Magnus at the Council. In a way he was defending his own creator.

 

This is in direct contradiction to the Space Wolves Rune Priest who is not equipped with a Librarius Psychic Hood or a force weapon. A rune priest is instead equipped with a Runic Staff. It works quite differently then a psychic hood and also serves as a force weapon with the additional power of being especially damaging to daemons.

 

The above is additional evidence that supports my original claim that the rune priests were in no way part of the Librarium project as created and trained by Magnus which in turn was the focus of the decree at the Council of Nikaea and therefore not subject to the Emperor's decree.

[Gree]

There have been a few replies since last night that have brought up the point that the Space Wolves Rune Priest = White Scars Stormseer. I direct you here:

 

http://games-workshop.com/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_ws.html

 

If there is any comparison of the Stormseers to any unit in the Space Wolves it would be the Wolf Priests. Both are said to be responsible for picking new recruits, Wolf Priests being also previously called, Choosers of the Slain.

 

I would also have you note in the IA that I provided a link to of the picture of the Stormseer. He is noted as being a White Scars Librarian Storm Seer. He is noted as being equipped with a Librarius Psychic Hood and and a Force Weapon. This is proof of the Storm Seerms connection and creation via the Librarium. The Storm Seers are a product of Magnus' creation and his vision for humanity. That would be why the Storm Seer stood up in the defense of Magnus at the Council. In a way he was defending his own creator.

 

And I direct you to the same site under the Librarian IA article. (By the way, you should just take off the link and quote the passage. Red Elf might violate this site's IP rules, I've seen it happen a few times before when people directly link to it)

 

The Rune Priests of the Space Wolves are one notable exception to the doctrines of the Codex Astartes, a comment that can be applied to the entire Chapter. [Other particularly noteworthy exceptions include the Librarians of the Crimson Shades, the White Scars and the Novamarines.

 

This is the Librarian article noting the Rune Priests and specificly comparing them to the White Scars Storm Seers.

 

The White Scars IA also notes the existance of human Storm Seers that predate the Astartes existance.

 

The tribal leaders and holy men, the Stormseers, gathered after the battle and proclaimed Jaghatai the Great Khan, Ruler of all Within the Lands

 

And no, The Storm Seer was not exactly defending Magnus at the Council. He was offering a compromise and acknowledged both sides. He certainly did not hold Magnus's views about knowledge or sorcery and actually stated they must be regulated. He is arguing against psykers being evil and states that sorcery is not good. As I've staed before his arguments beasr similarities to the Runes Priests own philosophies.

 

Otherwise your point about the Storm Seers being linked to the Wolf Priests is irrelevant as we are discussing psychic philosophies and practices. Look at the Storm Seer and Rubio, who where most certainly not using sorcery or abusing their powers.

 

Wheter Magnus created the Storm Seers is a moot point as we've seen examples of Librarians whose methods clearly differ from Magnus's.

 

Or by using an example of a modern Storm Seer are you claiming that modern day Librarians are a product of Magnus's way of thinking and are tainted? Which we know is surely not.

 

In conclusion, calling them a Librarian is just a name, nothing more, when we've seen different practices amoung the Astartes. In fact.......come to think of it I don't think I've ever seen a a Thousand Son explicitly referred to as a Librarian other than Ahirman........

 

This is in direct contradiction to the Space Wolves Rune Priest who is not equipped with a Librarius Psychic Hood or a force weapon. A rune priest is instead equipped with a Runic Staff. It works quite differently then a psychic hood and also serves as a force weapon with the additional power of being especially damaging to daemons.

 

Equipment is irrelevant. Ahirman does not wear a psychic hood, nor does any other Thousand Son I can recall. In fact I don't even think the Thousand Sons weapons are described as force weapons in the novel. A Runic Staff is obviously a force weapon by another name, just as a Blood Fist is a poorly named version of a Deadnought close combat weapon or Runic Armor is obviously artificer armor.

 

The above is additional evidence that supports my original claim that the rune priests were in no way part of the Librarium project as created and trained by Magnus which in turn was the focus of the decree at the Council of Nikaea and therefore not subject to the Emperor's decree.

 

Then they are certainly violating the spirit of the Emperor's law if not the letter. We know that Yesugai and Rubio where not sorcerers nor where they tainted, and yet they where banned all the same. The Emperor in fact goes on in his speech to note this.

 

I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not. Power is a living force and danger with power is an obsession. A man who attains a measure of power will find it comes to dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more.

 

Yaddayaddayadda. The Emperor goes on like this. Now his words may be adressed to Magnus but we know the Emperor is wrong. Or at least in regards to guys like Yesugai and Rubio or the rest of the non-Thousand Sons. If nothing else the Emperor is clearly wrong for condemming the Librarium as a whole, which disproves your point about him judging sorcery, and not psykers, when the accusation of Mortarion and ilk blatently throws psychic powers and sorcery together, even when said psychic powers are used by modern dasy Librarians quite safely.

[Grimtooth]

There have been a few replies since last night that have brought up the point that the Space Wolves Rune Priest = White Scars Stormseer. I direct you here:

 

http://games-workshop.com/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_ws.html

 

If there is any comparison of the Stormseers to any unit in the Space Wolves it would be the Wolf Priests. Both are said to be responsible for picking new recruits, Wolf Priests being also previously called, Choosers of the Slain.

 

I would also have you note in the IA that I provided a link to of the picture of the Stormseer. He is noted as being a White Scars Librarian Storm Seer. He is noted as being equipped with a Librarius Psychic Hood and and a Force Weapon. This is proof of the Storm Seerms connection and creation via the Librarium. The Storm Seers are a product of Magnus' creation and his vision for humanity. That would be why the Storm Seer stood up in the defense of Magnus at the Council. In a way he was defending his own creator.

 

And I direct you to the same site under the Librarian IA article. (By the way, you should just take off the link and quote the passage. Red Elf might violate this site's IP rules, I've seen it happen a few times before when people directly link to it)

 

The Rune Priests of the Space Wolves are one notable exception to the doctrines of the Codex Astartes, a comment that can be applied to the entire Chapter. [Other particularly noteworthy exceptions include the Librarians of the Crimson Shades, the White Scars and the Novamarines.

 

This is the Librarian article noting the Rune Priests and specificly comparing them to the White Scars Storm Seers.

 

The White Scars IA also notes the existance of human Storm Seers that predate the Astartes existance.

 

The tribal leaders and holy men, the Stormseers, gathered after the battle and proclaimed Jaghatai the Great Khan, Ruler of all Within the Lands

 

And no, The Storm Seer was not exactly defending Magnus at the Council. He was offering a compromise and acknowledged both sides. He certainly did not hold Magnus's views about knowledge or sorcery and actually stated they must be regulated. He is arguing against psykers being evil and states that sorcery is not good. As I've staed before his arguments beasr similarities to the Runes Priests own philosophies.

 

Otherwise your point about the Storm Seers being linked to the Wolf Priests is irrelevant as we are discussing psychic philosophies and practices. Look at the Storm Seer and Rubio, who where most certainly not using sorcery or abusing their powers.

 

Wheter Magnus created the Storm Seers is a moot point as we've seen examples of Librarians whose methods clearly differ from Magnus's.

 

Or by using an example of a modern Storm Seer are you claiming that modern day Librarians are a product of Magnus's way of thinking and are tainted? Which we know is surely not.

 

In conclusion, calling them a Librarian is just a name, nothing more, when we've seen different practices amoung the Astartes. In fact.......come to think of it I don't think I've ever seen a a Thousand Son explicitly referred to as a Librarian other than Ahirman........

 

This is in direct contradiction to the Space Wolves Rune Priest who is not equipped with a Librarius Psychic Hood or a force weapon. A rune priest is instead equipped with a Runic Staff. It works quite differently then a psychic hood and also serves as a force weapon with the additional power of being especially damaging to daemons.

 

Equipment is irrelevant. Ahirman does not wear a psychic hood, nor does any other Thousand Son I can recall. In fact I don't even think the Thousand Sons weapons are described as force weapons in the novel. A Runic Staff is obviously a force weapon by another name, just as a Blood Fist is a poorly named version of a Deadnought close combat weapon or Runic Armor is obviously artificer armor.

 

The above is additional evidence that supports my original claim that the rune priests were in no way part of the Librarium project as created and trained by Magnus which in turn was the focus of the decree at the Council of Nikaea and therefore not subject to the Emperor's decree.

 

Then they are certainly violating the spirit of the Emperor's law if not the letter. We know that Yesugai and Rubio where not sorcerers nor where they tainted, and yet they where banned all the same. The Emperor in fact goes on in his speech to note this.

 

I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not. Power is a living force and danger with power is an obsession. A man who attains a measure of power will find it comes to dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more.

 

Yaddayaddayadda. The Emperor goes on like this. Now his words may be adressed to Magnus but we know the Emperor is wrong. Or at least in regards to guys like Yesugai and Rubio or the rest of the non-Thousand Sons. If nothing else the Emperor is clearly wrong for condemming the Librarium as a whole, which disproves your point about him judging sorcery, and not psykers, when the accusation of Mortarion and ilk blatently throws psychic powers and sorcery together, even when said psychic powers are used by modern dasy Librarians quite safely.

 

I just pointed out specifically how the Rune Priest is different from a Storm Seer and you disregard it. Even going as far as to point out that the clear diiference in equipment doesn't mattr. Referencing the Librarian article does not put the White Scars and others on the same level as Rune Priests either. It points out that they may not follow codex doctrine, but does not differentiate White Scar Storm Seers from the proverbial fruit of Magnus' loins. To break it down;

 

Storm Seers use the equipment of the Librarius. Magnus is responsible for the creation and training of the Librarium.

 

Rune Priests lack anything tying them to the Librarium and in turn Magnus.

 

What more do you need?

 

And you need to reference what the Council of Nikaea was and wasn't. It was a censure of Magnus and everything he believed and created. It was a censure of his vision for humanity. It was not a censure of psychic powers throughout the Imperium. This is akin to the Emperor laying the smackdown on the Word Bearers for raising him up as a diety. It doesn't matter that Rubio or whoever was not a sorceror. Their creation, their training, their existance were products of what was deemed by the Emperor a tainted source, Magnus. The Emperor painted those who were tainted by Magnus with a broad brush, but the Rune Priests were not included in that stroke due to not being a product of Magnus.

 

I see no reason to try and misdirect the psychic hood argument with examples of Ahiriman. They are direct descendants of the target of the Council of Nikaea' censure. If anything that was just a very weak attempt at trying to deflect that White Scars are not products of the Librarium when the proof shows that they are indeed. Note that even in gameplay, Thousand Sons do not have any of the equipment nor abilities of Librarians. The Thousand Sons are not a product of the Librarium, they are a product of Magnus directly and their use of sorcery/psychic powers would be viewed as being directly tainted by Magnus.

 

Note, I use tainted now since we have hindsight to see that Magnus was dealing with the daemonic almost exclusively. However in the context of the Council of Nikaea, the censure of Magnus but also that which he had influence.

[Gree]

I just pointed out specifically how the Rune Priest is different from a Storm Seer and you disregard it.

 

And then I go and poke holes in your evidence. Try looking at the Librarian article in the same source you gave me before making further points.

 

Even going as far as to point out that the clear diiference in equipment doesn't mattr.

 

Because it doesn't.

 

Referencing the Librarian article does not put the White Scars and others on the same level as Rune Priests either.

 

Why not? We've seen evidence from Yesugai's own mouth. Funny, you accuse me of disregarding sources yet do the same yourself..

 

Storm Seers use the equipment of the Librarius. Magnus is responsible for the creation and training of the Librarium.

 

As I've pointed out before equipment is irrelevant.

 

Rune Priests lack anything tying them to the Librarium and in turn Magnus.

 

Incorrect, they use psychic powers, maintain chapter records and use force weapons. They are obviously the Space Wolf version of Librarians.

 

What more do you need?

 

A convincing argument? So far I have no agreed with anything you have said nor have I been convinced at all by your points.

 

It was not a censure of psychic powers throughout the Imperium.

 

I know. Which is why it was a censure of psychic powers in the Astartes Legions and why the Emperor banned it amoung those Legions.

 

It doesn't matter that Rubio or whoever was not a sorceror.

 

It does actually. It proves that the Emperor is wrong. That therr are many Librarians who don't use sorcery and that the entire concept is not bad.

 

The Emperor painted those who were tainted by Magnus with a broad brush, but the Rune Priests were not included in that stroke due to not being a product of Magnus.

 

A technicality. All psychic powers were being taken out of the Astartes Legions. Read up Dorn's reaction to Garro possibly being a psyker or Loken to psycic powers in False Gods.

 

I see no reason to try and misdirect the psychic hood argument with examples of Ahiriman.

 

Where am I misdirecting? You made an erroneous statement and I corrected it.

 

If anything that was just a very weak attempt at trying to deflect that White Scars are not products of the Librarium when the proof shows that they are indeed.

 

I never attempted to deflect that actually. I was looking at philosophies not what unit they where apart of.

 

Note that even in gameplay, Thousand Sons do not have any of the equipment nor abilities of Librarians.

 

Wait, your're actually bringing gameplay mechanics into this? Seriously?

 

The Thousand Sons are not a product of the Librarium, they are a product of Magnus directly and their use of sorcery/psychic powers would be viewed as being directly tainted by Magnus.

 

The Thousand Sons are not apart of the Librarium you say? Then they commited no crime then. The Emperor decreed that the Librarians must disband and that they must not use psychic powers. Since the Thousand Sons are not Librarians, going by your logic, they commited no crime, as the Emperor said nothing about non-Librarians using psychic powers in the Astartes Legion.

 

A Thousand Sons pg. 355

 

Henceforth it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All it'sarriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and must never again employ psychic powers.

 

Since the Thousand Sons are not part of the Librarius going by your logic, they can't be disbanded and are free to use psychic powers.

 

I would also note the Emperor said nothing else about that ruling, no amendments to that proclamation or anything.

 

Note, I use tainted now since we have hindsight to see that Magnus was dealing with the daemonic almost exclusively.

 

Incorrect, as I've noted before the vast majority of powers used by Magnus and his Legion where things used by modern day Librarians. For example, precog, pyromancy, kine shields. All used by 41st Millenium Librarians.

[Marshal Rohr]

Gree is right.

 

The Emperor said no psychic powers. Rune Priests use psychic powers. So by the Emperor's decree they can no longer use their powers, yet they continued to do so. So the Space Wolves are just as guilty as the Thousand Sons. For reference, Long Fang was a Terran, yet he used psychic powers, so how could someone not of Fenris draw on its 'energy'?

 

Besides, psychic powers are an abomination.

[Sobansa]

“Hear now the words of my ruling,” said the Emperor, and the amphitheatre filled with the

sound of scratching quills. “I am not blind to the needs of the Imperium, but nor am I blind to the

realities of the hearts of men. I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract

concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not. Power is a living force, and the

danger with power is obsession. A man who attains a measure of power will find it comes to

dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more. Nearly all men can stand

adversity, but few can stand the ultimate test of character, that of wielding power without

succumbing to its darker temptations.”

As much as the Emperor was addressing the entire amphitheatre, Ahriman had the powerful

sense that his words were intended solely for Magnus.

“Peering into the darkness to gain knowledge of the warp is fraught with peril, for it is an

inconstant place of shifting reality, capricious lies and untruths. The seeker after truth must have a

care he is not deceived, for false knowledge is far more dangerous than ignorance. All men wish to

possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will seek to take the short cut,

the quick route to power, and it is a man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil

ways. True knowledge is gained only after the acquisition of wisdom. Without wisdom, a powerful

person does not become more powerful, he becomes reckless. His power will turn on him and

eventually destroy all he has built.

“I have walked paths no man can know and faced the unnameable creatures of the warp. I

understand all too well the secrets and dangers that lurk in its hidden darkness. Such things are not

for lesser minds to know; no matter how powerful or knowledgeable they believe themselves to be.

The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further. Only death and

damnation await those who pry too deeply into secrets not meant for mortals.”

Ahriman blanched at the Emperor’s words, feeling their awful finality. The promise of

extinction was woven into every word.

“I see now I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have

permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this

conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint

the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius

department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again

employ any psychic powers.”

Gasps of astonishment spread through the amphitheatre, and Ahriman felt his skin chill at the

absolute nature of the Emperor’s pronouncement. After everything that had been said, he couldn’t

believe the judgement had gone against them.

The Emperor wasn’t finished, and thunder rolled in his voice.

“Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I

will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue

the day he turned from my light.”

 

The emperor

A Thousand Sons

Page 168 (in my copy)

 

While the specific wording of the ruling states that the Librus department is to be done away with, the context of it was a censure of the use of any psykers by the Astartes. The rune priests are inside the rules but outside the spirit of those rules.

[Grimtooth]

The You keep noting the other IA as your proof that they are the same when it does no such thing at all.

 

Being classified as an, "other noteworthy exception" does not declassify them as being a product of the very Librarium that was created by Magnus. In fact the passage you keep quoting flat out calls the White Scars Storm Seers, "Librarians". I notice how you fail to include that your whole argument is based upon a sidebar from the main article about librarians titled,

 

"The Rune Priests of the Space Wolves"

 

That goes on to completely distinguish rune priests from librarians in their practices. I notice that you also do not include the following passage,

 

"The particular psychic powers and practises they employ, however, are based on the traditional shamans of their homeworld, Fenris, and as such are very different from the Codex form."

 

So even taking your own article as proof that they are considered different, not only in how the employ their powers and how they came to be, but also in conjunction that they use nothing of the Librarium equipment wise, the Rune Priests are not a product of Magnus and thus were not subject to censure at Nikaea.

 

I never said that the Thousand Sons were not part of the Librarium. I specifically said they were not a PRODUCT of the Librarium. The Thousand Sons did fall under the decree, not as librarians of the Librarium, but as instructors of the Librarium. I don't have page numbers from the novel as I am on the road working, but it is referenced that members of the Thousand Sons were sent as instructors as part of the Librarius project.

 

Gameplay is a representation of what the storyline is trying to project. It is a valid point.

 

As far as Dorn, he was one of the original primarchs that were against psykers in the Space Marine Legions. Those included Moratorian, Corax, and wait for it........Leman Russ. So both Dorn and Garro would have already been inherently mistrusting of psykers. IIRC it wasn't Loken's distaste for psykers, it was his original distrust of the the secrecy of the lodges, the inclusion of Erebus, and Erebus pushing for the use of the rituals to save Horus. That was his aversion, not psykers. I do note a lack of any librarians in the Luna Wolves from the novels, so it could also be traced back to Horus' preference as well.

[bjornsval]

Since no one hase done it. My hypothesis is this. When the Emperor sends russ off to fetch Manus,he not only sends the Wolves but also a sizable contingent of the silent sisterhood. Now if the Emperor is giving Russ the most potent anti-psyker force in the imperium. He is obviousley worried about a confrontation and the use of psykic powers. So would it really be far fetched that before Russ leaves, the emperor tells Russ that the edicts of Nikea are set aside in this instance only if the Thousand Sons refuse to come peacefully and force a fight?

[Grimtooth]

I am noticing that bringing up these new points was pretty useless. The same arguments of,

 

The are just SW librarians

They are the same as Storm Seers

They are using the same psychic powers

Etc

Etc

 

Are just being regurgiated over and over from the old locked thread. My conclusion in this thread along with my theory is as follows.

 

The Council of Nikaea was a censure of Magnus and the Librarius project of which he was responsible for creating and training the Librarians of the Legions. As the rune priests of the Space Wolves were never a product of the Librarius project, in creation, training, employment of psychic powers, and in equipment, they were not subject to the Emperor's decree. As such the continued use of their powers after the Council as well as being chosen to respond to the continued use of powers by the Thousand Sons, with direct support of the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes, the only apparent conclusion is that the Space Wolves, specifically the rune priests and Russ himself (war howl able to disrupt the psychic plane) were sanctioned psykers of the Emperor.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

there is no end to this argument because we havent seen the entire story yet. once we have then lets waste time with this debate.

 

WLK

[Gree]

The You keep noting the other IA as your proof that they are the same when it does no such thing at all.

 

The you? What are you talking about? I have no idea if you are replying to me or not. I'll assume you are.

 

Being classified as an, "other noteworthy exception" does not declassify them as being a product of the very Librarium that was created by Magnus. In fact the passage you keep quoting flat out calls the White Scars Storm Seers, "Librarians". I notice how you fail to include that your whole argument is based upon a sidebar from the main article about librarians titled,

 

Incorrect, my whole argument is not based on a sidebar about Librarians, it's actually about psychic practices and philosophies. The Storm Seers being Librarians or not, is actually a side issue for me. You seem to be under the impression otherwise despite me repeatedly telling you that is not so in this thread.

 

That goes on to completely distinguish rune priests from librarians in their practices. I notice that you also do not include the following passage,

 

"The particular psychic powers and practises they employ, however, are based on the traditional shamans of their homeworld, Fenris, and as such are very different from the Codex form."

 

I did't include it because I thought you would be familar with your own army's fluff. I guess I was wrong.

 

So even taking your own article as proof that they are considered different, not only in how the employ their powers and how they came to be, but also in conjunction that they use nothing of the Librarium equipment wise, the Rune Priests are not a product of Magnus and thus were not subject to censure at Nikaea.

 

Incorrect, wheter they where of Magnus or not matters little when all psychic powers are being banned. And I already have pointed out the pointlessness of using equipment when detrimining a Librarian, but you seem to have ignored that.

 

I never said that the Thousand Sons were not part of the Librarium. I specifically said they were not a PRODUCT of the Librarium. The Thousand Sons did fall under the decree, not as librarians of the Librarium, but as instructors of the Librarium. I don't have page numbers from the novel as I am on the road working, but it is referenced that members of the Thousand Sons were sent as instructors as part of the Librarius project.

 

Then you put a very poor choice of words to express that. Of course that still doesn't change my point, as you can'ty hardly expect Magnus to sent the entirety of his Legion to instruct others on how to make Librarius.

 

So Magnus would only have to restrict those inttructors, rather than his entire Legion as per the decree.

 

''Alright, we are going to do the warp ritual thingy, Bob, Joe, T'kar, you stand over there, that's what you get for going on that scholarship program for blunts. The rest of you form a semi-circle and chant with me: A'char'ky T'malkan Q'usakai...........''

 

Gameplay is a representation of what the storyline is trying to project. It is a valid point.

 

No it's not. Rules change every edition. One edition Calgar had a power sword. The previous one he lost it suddenly. One edition Ahriman had a simple staff. The next Ahriman discovered the force button switch. This addition all my Black Legionaries discovered the amazing technology of a bolter strap.

 

I could go on and on.

 

As far as Dorn, he was one of the original primarchs that were against psykers in the Space Marine Legions. Those included Moratorian, Corax, and wait for it........Leman Russ. So both Dorn and Garro would have already been inherently mistrusting of psykers.

 

That still does not change my point.

 

I do note a lack of any librarians in the Luna Wolves from the novels, so it could also be traced back to Horus' preference as well.

 

the incident I talk about takes place after the Council of Nikea and refers to the psyker ban.

 

I am noticing that bringing up these new points was pretty useless. The same arguments of,

 

That's not good debate etiquette, accusing your opponet's points as being useless. I don't agree with you at all, but I'm not flat out stating your arguments are useless in general, just not convincing to me.

 

The Council of Nikaea was a censure of Magnus and the Librarius project of which he was responsible for creating and training the Librarians of the Legions.

 

Incorrect, all psychic powers in the Legions where being restricted in one form or another.

 

As the rune priests of the Space Wolves were never a product of the Librarius project, in creation, training, employment of psychic powers, and in equipment, they were not subject to the Emperor's decree. As such the continued use of their powers after the Council as well as being chosen to respond to the continued use of powers by the Thousand Sons, with direct support of the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes, the only apparent conclusion is that the Space Wolves, specifically the rune priests and Russ himself (war howl able to disrupt the psychic plane) were sanctioned psykers of the Emperor.

 

Which if nothing else goes against the Emperor's entire speech on the dangers of psychic powers and his emphasis on psychic powers, and the general attituide of the accusers.

 

If the Rune Priests where such model sanctioned psykers I would expect Yesugai to bring them up as prime examples of how to husband your powers and caefully control them, or that to be brought up at all.