Wolves and Nikaea

[Marshal Rohr]

The Emperor forbade the use of psychic powers. Rune priests still used them. That's a violation of the decree.

[Legatus]

Yup. No way around that.

 

It made more sense when they had compromised at Nikaea, forbidding only sorcery but still allowing psykers, though with strict training regimes. But taking lore that made sense and screwing around with it is the staple of the Horus Heresy series, after all.

[Decoy]

Here's a thought.

 

Did you ever think that the Wolves (and Rune Priests, obviously) learned about the Decree, nodded, then said "Well you can go :tu: right off because not a one of you can do anything to stop us"? It's not like that's a giant leap for any Space Wolf to make, and if any were to say that, it'd likely be Russ.

[Hyaenidae]

The Emperor forbade the use of psychic powers. Rune priests still used them. That's a violation of the decree.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. Trying to say 'Librarians are forbidden, but Storm Seers / Rune Priests are fine' is like saying 'It's terrible to beat you child, unless they have red hair.' The Wolves are in violation of the Emperors Decree. Period.

 

And, as M2C said, Psykers are abominations.

[Gree]

Let me post up information on the formation of the Librarius from Visions of War, starting at Page 85.

 

''Magnus the Red, Primarch of the Thousand Sons Legion, was instrumental in the development of the Space Marine Librarians. Some of the Space Marine Primarchs had long wanted to exploit the powers of psychically talented Space Marines. In some Legions psychic mutation was relatively common and it was felt that there must be some ways for such individuals to continue to be of use to their Legion without presenting danger.

 

Magnus and a number of other Primarchs created a program of training and developing psykers that supplemented the traditional process of creating a Space Marine. The Emperor sanctioned these first few experiments with psychic Space Marines as a means of controlling the spontaneous outbreaks of psychic mutation within the ranks of certain Legions. Then the Emperor had been asked to approve of the recruitment of psykers into some of the other Legions. The Librarians had been loyal and effective warriors and the Emperor appeared to accept their presence on the field of battle.''

So Magnus and a number of other Primarchs worked in conjunction. And then we have this.

 

''As the Great Crusade progressed, most of the Space Marines Legions had established Librarius departments. The Librarians proved themselves as worthy as any other Space Marines in battle after battle.''

 

This makes it sound like, that while Magnus took the first steps in conjunction with others, the actual establishment of the Librarius in mass scale among the other Legions took place at their behest. It was not his sole brainchild.

 

And then we have this. Bolded for your benefit.

 

''The Emperor made his ruling. Beyond the exceptions of Navigators and astropaths, he was adamant that the Legions did not employ psykers. Even the hint of sorcery had become dangerous and unacceptable. He commanded the Primarchs to close their Librarius departments forthwith and ordered that the Primarchs themselves not indulge their undoubted psychic talents. The Emperor said it was not clear if Magnus had been using sorcery, but that he should immediately cease using psychic powers.''

 

Maybe the Wolves where not in violation of the letter of the law, but this confirms that they where in violation of the spirit at least. The Emperor even orders the Primarchs themselves not to use psychic powers.

 

Here's a thought.

 

Did you ever think that the Wolves (and Rune Priests, obviously) learned about the Decree, nodded, then said "Well you can go :tu: right off because not a one of you can do anything to stop us"? It's not like that's a giant leap for any Space Wolf to make, and if any were to say that, it'd likely be Russ.

 

It's one thing to disobey the High Lords, it's another to disobey the God-Emperor of Mankind, their liege lord that they swore on oath to and that they owe everything to. Russ would not exist without the Emperor. The Space Wolves would not exist without the Emperor.

 

If Russ disobeyed the Emperor's direct ruling then he is a hypocrite and a traitor going by the logic used to attack Magnus.

[MagicMan]

Here's a thought.

 

Did you ever think that the Wolves (and Rune Priests, obviously) learned about the Decree, nodded, then said "Well you can go :) right off because not a one of you can do anything to stop us"? It's not like that's a giant leap for any Space Wolf to make, and if any were to say that, it'd likely be Russ.

 

 

 

Lol so why all the fuss about Magnus and the Thousand Sons?

 

 

It just makes the Wolves into hypocrites and traitors.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Here's a thought.

 

Did you ever think that the Wolves (and Rune Priests, obviously) learned about the Decree, nodded, then said "Well you can go :) right off because not a one of you can do anything to stop us"? It's not like that's a giant leap for any Space Wolf to make, and if any were to say that, it'd likely be Russ.

 

"How dare the Thousand Sons ignore a proclamation of the Emperor because they think they know better! That's our job!"

 

@Brother Ramses, I find it a little hypocritical that you're accusing us of simply restating old "useless" arguments, when your very opening post you're doing exactly that: rewording the same old arguments put forward in the previous thread. As Gree has shown with direct quotes, the Emperor did not want any exceptions whatsoever within the Asartes. Your "only the Librarians were affected" arguement breaks down even further when you remember that even the Primarchs themselves were bound by this Decree, despite not being Librarians.

 

Plus, we even have the word of a HH writer that the flaw of the Wolves is their hypocritical-ness.

now we look like what our "haters" want to see, and i for one was hoping for some answer, one way or the other.

 

Every Legion needs something as a flaw, though. I mean, with the greatest respect to Prospero Burns (which I liked a hell of a lot) the Wolves were set up to be pretty, uh, impressive, to say the least.

 

I mean, they're not perfect. This is how they're not perfect. They're hypocrites.

 

It's not a bad thing, really. Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws. There's no reason the Wolves should be the one Legion to avoid it.

 

How are we hypocrites? I thought this was explained precisely in the book.

 

It was. Well, they justified it on their terms.

 

Objectively speaking, like the others, I still think it makes them hypocrites. And ultimately, despite their vaunted claims of understanding the warp due to their own self-control, the Space Wolves know nothing compared to the Thousand Sons, and they were still acting in defiance of the Nikea Edict. They just justified it well enough to themselves to consider it going along with the rules. Ignorance is bliss.

[Sobansa]

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers. That is the decision. So if they are Librarius they are commanded to never use their powers again.

 

That is the letter of the law. However, the spirit of it is that there should be no Psykers among the space marines. By the letter the SW and the Rune priests are ok. by the spirit, the Grey knights have a lot of explaining to do.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Here is the problem as far as I am concerned:

We have fluff in flux.

 

As Legs said, if 'sorcery' was bad [let's assume it is compacting with Daemons] and psychic powers was fine [just using raw warp energy] then the old Ruling of "thou shalt not sorcer" worked. But the new Ruling seems to be "thou shalt not sorcer nor useth warp energy, unlest ye be navigators and astropaths" and that really jams things up.

 

Ramses is arguing using logic, but from a set of cards where only half the hand has been dealt. You cannot really use logic and succeed when you only know some of the facts.

We need to wait until BL deals the rest of the fluff facts before we can actually make an informed comment.

 

Similarly, all those naysaying the Wolves [and that would be my instinctual viewpoint as they murder the Sons for using magick, when they themselves use magick] really need to wait for there "must" [should?] be a reason for the Wolves using spells themselves.

 

Two things were missed in PB: First, not really answering the 'No wolves' thing, though I can believe that was quite deliberate as loose threads create conjecture and interest. Second, was that excellent scene

when Ahriman shows Othere the truth, in ATS, during the invasion. If that had been followed up in PB, we could have seen what Ahriman was actually showing him - was it that the Wolves were hypocrites with regards to assuming that 'the World Wolf' actually empowered their spells, or was it that Ahriman showed Othere that these brother Legions had been manipulated into making terrible war with one another, when both of them dearly loved the Emperor and should have been fighting Horus together, even with the Sons being damned by Magnus's deal with that Daemon ~ who was really an ambassador of Tzeentch.

 

 

It is really flimsy to suggest that Wolves use 'the World Wolf' and all the others use 'the Warp' as though they were different things. Fenris doesn't have special non-Warp magick that can be used anywhere in the Universe by its sons, be they Gothi or Runepriest, and is not actually from the Warp. No way. Runepriests are clearly "non-book Librarians" in function.

 

But as I said before, BL will make this plain to us in due time [i hope] so there is no need to get our knickers in a knot over it.

 

This arguing about an incomplete re-genesis of fluff happened in the UM forum. Guilliman decides to write memoirs about his Codex, or something like that, and this makes cross all the other Loyalist Legions fans, as the much harped over "greatest Legion, with the greatest tactics, and the greatest Primarch who was greatest like the Emperor, and great at playing simcity and great enough to warrant being sidelined, because of being such a great threat, by Horus - who used to be the greatest and that is why the Emperor chose him but now Guilliman is greater because his incorruptibility is greater than 10" seems like he was too busy adjusting his collar and hair parting to actually fight to save the Empire, which he is supposed to have been fighting for. Great.

 

But Guilliman has only been getting good press from BL, even in the Word Bearers book, so to say that BL is actually looking to set him up for a fall is counting chickens before they have been hatched. Wait until the UM book comes out before having a rant over Guilliman and/or BL.

 

A dinner isn't ready until it is on the plate. Eating the fluff before that is going to give you a different flavour than waiting until it has all be plated.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Willie: didnt i say the gist of your message, less eloquently of couse, 10 posts back?

 

WLK

[Gree]

*snip*

 

The thing is, we do know the fluff. Fluff changes, but as right now we know that the Emperor was adamant that no psykers be included in the Legions and that not even the Primarchs themselves could foster their talents. And then lo and behold, in Prospero Burns we have Rune Priests doing psychic work in direct defiance of the Emperor's orders.

 

The Wolves were hypocrites, plain and simple.

 

Fluff may change yes, but as of right now, we do have all sides versions of what happened. We have the Thousand Sons version, we have the Space Wolf version, and we have information from Collected Visions.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Hobby-ists, Discuss the librarius and space wolves or access the closed topic please.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

@Willie: didnt i say the gist of your message, less eloquently of couse, 10 posts back?

 

WLK

 

Yes. But things need saying more than once, otherwise people would have stopped posting after your post. :o

 

*snip*

 

The thing is, we do know the fluff. Fluff changes, but as right now we know that the Emperor was adamant that no psykers be included in the Legions and that not even the Primarchs themselves could foster their talents. And then lo and behold, in Prospero Burns we have Rune Priests doing psychic work in direct defiance of the Emperor's orders.

 

The Wolves were hypocrites, plain and simple.

 

Fluff may change yes, but as of right now, we do have all sides versions of what happened. We have the Thousand Sons version, we have the Space Wolf version, and we have information from Collected Visions.

 

This is the reason I included the UM discussion. No UM would say "yes, Guilliman is a jerk who let the Empire rot in its darkest hour" without holding hope that the rest of the story will get fleshed out and Guilliman being restored to being greater than the Emperor the other Primarchs. Even I, who detest the greatest tag, wouldn't want Guilliman portrayed in this way.

 

Similarly, in cutting slack for the Ultras, I am prepared to cut some slack for the Wolves until it is all fleshed out. I think, if anything, Abnett and McNeill have simply faux pas'ed in the sorcery and librarians situation. If they'd left it at "sorcery is naughty, but sanctioned spells are fine" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Logic checks seem to fall by the wayside when authors get into writing a story, which is annoying for us who want to us the material as a source of discussion.

 

But as it stands, right now, yes, the Wolves appear to be hypocrites. It cannot be reasoned away, one cannot pretend that Storm seers are not the same thing as Gothi, when IA WS shows they are. Also, GW has never made a distinction between non-sorcery spells, be they from a Librarian, an Astropath or a Navigator - they are all warp energy using spells.

 

So I agree with you, but am not willing to put the Wolves to the pyre.... yet ^_^

 

I'd love for our dear A D-B to give us some insider thinking:

Did Abnett and McNeill faux pas, and they really just meant "sorcery" but got carried away in trying to make the Emperor's sentence seem grander?

Or did they write exactly what they should have, and the Wolves are hypocrites?

Or something else I have missed?

 

Aaron...?

[Master Exorcist]

remember, that the wolves were on a tighter leash than the other legions....being the executioners and everything.......

they would use any tool at their disposal to get the job done (ref. using xenos weapons), although it was in a VERY different form that that of a librarus.

 

ME

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except, once again, the Emperor hasn't given them any preferential treatment regarding the Decree.

 

Also, Wilhelm, just to clear things up, it wasn't Abnett and McNeil that changed the Decree, it was Alan Merret in Collected Visions. As he's the head of IP, basically, they can't change it back. Sadly, this new version of events just makes no sense, other than to make the Wolves look like hypocrites.

[Legatus]

remember, that the wolves were on a tighter leash than the other legions....being the executioners and everything.......

I don't remember that. :lol:

[The Broker]

remember, that the wolves were on a tighter leash than the other legions....being the executioners and everything.......

I don't remember that. :lol:

 

Why are people so adamant that the Wolves are the Emperor's executioners?

 

They see themselves as the executioners, but they also believe that their psykers are empowered by the energy of Fenris for the God-Emperor's sake.

 

Even in PB, Hawser admits he embellishes tales to make them better when retold. PB tells us that the overriding characteristic of the Wolves is that they are unreliable narrators.

[Lord_Caerolion]

We're adamant because Dan Abnett himself stated directly that "the only reason they're allowed to exist is to take down other Legions".

[Legatus]

He told us that in the same breath as telling us that they are the most terrifying and brutal Legion. So it was not a very credible statement.

[The Broker]

He told us that in the same breath as telling us that they are the most terrifying and brutal Legion. So it was not a very credible statement.

 

Konrad Curze will not be impressed with talk like that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

He told us that in the same breath as telling us that they are the most terrifying and brutal Legion. So it was not a very credible statement.

 

Hell, I never said I liked it. It's one of my least favourite pieces of new fluff, and while I've been somewhat convinced that the Wolves attitudes might make them suitable for the role, I disagree when you take their size into account, and don't like the "they're the worst of the worst" thing. Still, I've made this argument elsewhere, and we're getting off-topic. Suffice to say, no matter whether the Wolves were the executioners or not, the fact remains that no exemptions were granted. The only exceptions to the psyker-ban were navigators and astropaths. The Rune Priests are neither, and therefore are not immune.

[Brother Immolator]

Most of the opinions i read here seem to be based on word games and not actually putting thought to the spirit of the big Es statements.

Please reread the novel or the pasage quoted in the previous page and dont focus on words but on the point that the man wanted to get across.

 

The emperor decreed that the astartes would use no psychic powers whatsoever.NONE of them.He knows of the powers of the warp and their corrupting influence.He knows of the 4 powers and the rest of the deamons.He knows of the inherent dangers of the warp and knows that noone not even magnus has enough knowldge to protect himself only the emperor can trifle with the warp in a safe manner and that comes from millenia of knowledge.Magnus and the rest are mewling babies compaired to the emeperos power.In fact Magnus is the infant and the rest are ants by comparison.

 

Librarians,shamans,psychers,witches,stormcallers,call em what you like.In order for them to do their mumbo jumbo they need to tap power from the shame source the:warp.Thus they all are doing it the same way,the only thinq that makes them different is the way(they think)they do it.

 

A witch/sorcerer uses corpses,sex,trickery or blood to draw power for her spells.Unless he/she is bestowed power by the dark gods themselves if he is not a psyker etc.Luther which is an exception and irrelevant to the topic since we speak about pure psykers.

A generic Librearian uses mental training and iron will to draw power for his spells.

A SW uses the power of fenrish to draw power for his spells.So a space wolf by that reasoning would be deprived of his spells outside of fenrish?Or do they take bottles with air and sand with em?Or is fenrish sentient granting them power?Thereby making them heretics except deviants?Ridiculus reasoning.I dont add this reasoning to the exceptions because if that were the case all of the SW would be able to cast spells with a little training a thing we know they dont making the use of fenrish itself as a power source moot.

 

They all do the same thing:Draw power from the warp to cast spells.They all are psykers,they all endanger themselves in the proccess.The only difference is that they have been trained to do so differently,they use a different method to focus their minds.

 

The use of equipment IS irrelevant.The name IS irrelevant.The focus IS irrelevant.Those are ways to focus the mind in the warp nothing more nothing less.It all boils down to this:All are psykers and use the same power for their spells,they endanger themselves and are prone to corruption.Thereby by ceasing the use of psycker powers the emeperor sought to protect the emperium from harm.He uses the method of if i have a tooth ache better cut the head and be done withit less another tooth starts to ache too.

 

Whaterver they are Ksons,Wolves,Um,Witches,Stormcallers,librarians,witches they all are psychers thereby subjet to the councils rulling.The fact that they make distinctions to one another acussing one of beeing a witch and so on is clear to the emperor that they trifle with powers beyond their comprehencion.Thats the spirit of the rule.

 

EDIT:Gree we agree almost on all things but dont make the same mistake most people do.In m30 there was not god-emeperor,just emperor.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Way too much off topic pollution of other topics and too much circle jerk on this topic.

 

Folks will agree to disagree until further elaboration by the authors(if they do that).