vorticone Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 My dear Battle Brothers, next week my Space Marines will be fighting a battle against Eldar, and I am in need of some support and tips. We will fight according to the Planetstrike rules, and this is exactly my "problem". I have so far only fought once in such a battle, and I barely won against a Tyranid attacker. The Eldar player is much more experienced, though it will be his first Planetstrike game (and my second, but the first were we use stratagems). The first Planetfall I played taught me some tough lessons, like do not leave all your valuable units on the battlefield in the beginning but use reserves. Two tanks and half a Tactical Squad were dead before the assaulter even made planetfall. *cough* Tyranids I know pretty well, but Eldar are tough. I know quite a few of his units and can understand what they do and how to counter them, but I do not know of his combinations and evil schemes, if you know what I mean. Maybe help me analyse my concept list, and give me some pointers on what to expect from an Eldar planetfall assault. We already decided I will be the defender, so it is my choice how many objectives and stratagems we use. I was aiming for 3 objectives, bunkers mostly, but not GW terrain. We use only scratchbuilt terrain and the odd Ebay piece. Also we are not strict WYSIWYG, so bunkers will have a few weapons. We play on the GW Field of Battle, dimensions are 6'x4' iirc. My plan is to block one of the shorter edges with woods/hills/etc so he will not take this side as his deployment zone. I will position the three bunkers/objectives close to this setup region, leaving a long empty field. I will maybe use the denied drop zone stratagem to deny him one of the long edges and deploy some of my troops there. So the plan is, he will either have to start on the long edge which I have covered with units and some terrain, or start on the short edge opposing my 'fortress'. I hope I have enough terrain for this. We have not yet decided on an army points value, but we will probably play with around 2000-2500 points. And since it is a friendly game, I can expect proxies, but that means I can proxy a little as well. I know that my enemy loves to play Eldrad with a Seer Council and an Avatar. He also loves his Guardians(not sure on the unit name) with bladestorm exarch power. And he will definately bring his Harlequins and a unit of three walkers with multilaser equivalent (usually flanking in normal games). My usual choice of units is a terminator librarian, vulcan he'stan, hammer terminators, lr redeemer, tacticals with plasma and multimelter and land speeder with hf/mm. Any units that absolutely rock in Planetstrike? Any really good stratagem I should think about using? Any evil Eldar tactics I should be wary of? Would it be a good idea to start with very few units on the table, like one unit per bunker plus maybe a few vehicles, and rest in reserves? How would you value the following units in a Planetstrike mission while defending: - Whirlwind or Land Raider Helios - Vindicator (I never played them since their range is too short for my taste, but as defender, worth it?) - Bike Squad (Small squad with flamer, melta and pf sgt are great in normal games, but not sure in PS.) - Assault Marines (I know they are rarely played, but two flamer templates rock against Eldar. Also for counter assaulting very underrated.) Cheers, vorticone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 First of all, read this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=165294 Grey Mage has given all of us a leg up on those ancient xenos. General off-the-cuff Eldar advice Your marines need to stick together; at most split your force into two roughly equal detachments. Each Eldar unit is super broken at one aspect of the game and very, very bad at all others. For instance, Dire Avengers are melee tarpits; Dark Reapers wield massive anti-infantry fire; Banshees are ridiculous at killing things in melee, etc. If you split up, you play into the savvy Eldar player's hands: they'll be able to pit their super-broken units against precisely the marine units they were designed to kill. To do this, you'll want to DS nothing if you can help it; deploy it all together. (It's been a while, so I can't recall whether this is allowed in all PS scenarios.) If he's trying to beachhead on YOUR front lawn, so much the better. Be the porcupine. Do your best to ground his transports at range (MLs and autocannons are nice for this as they're AV12 with shield-shenanigans, so massed volume of shots is better than melta single-shots) and opportunistically assault any unit that isn't bristling with power weapons. Don't over extend yourself: once separated, you will lose the unit. Also, if you don't ground his tanks by Turn 5, he'll probably flat-out move what transports he can into surprise positions that will contest things (in a hope that he'll win with no Turn 6). Eldar are sneaky like that. I hope this helps. Eldar are a fun game but damn are they a tough one (if the player behind them is good). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 - Whirlwind or Land Raider Helios Whirlwinds can be nice versus Eldar and don't forget that they're Ordnance and thus roll 2d6 and pick the best versus armor (if they have nothing else to shoot at, shoot at transports). - Vindicator (I never played them since their range is too short for my taste, but as defender, worth it?) 24" is pretty standard marine range, and these things can fire that far on the move. S10, AP2, Ordnance (roll 2d6 pick the best versus armor). You should try these more. ;) - Bike Squad (Small squad with flamer, melta and pf sgt are great in normal games, but not sure in PS.)- Assault Marines (I know they are rarely played, but two flamer templates rock against Eldar. Also for counter assaulting very underrated.) Both of these units are very valuable for skirmishing and support. They have great mobility and thus, roving around your backfield/behind your "gun-line" (it's not really a line ever, but still) they can hop in and help any tacticals that are mired by Dire Avengers and/or a vile xeno IC. I know I said that a melta single-shot isn't as good as other things versus Eldar armor, HOWEVER for the occasional Eldar IC they can be nice. Before for that purpose: power fists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Don't start with any tanks on the the table... surround any fortifications you don't want being destroyed with fodder... not that marines have that much fodder... I find swooping hawks to actually be worth taking (compared to some of the other stuff) in PS as they can deep strike, assault and nade ya! So yer I would treat the game a bit like Dawn of War against Eldar keeping in mind any funky tricks he can play and ones you can play as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Don't start with any tanks on the the table... Lance Weapons and occasionally Fire Dragons. I forgot about those. Lances Weaps treat all armor that's AV12 or more as only AV12. Fire Dragons are cheap suicide squads that all have melta guns...which might rapid-fire. I can't recall, but a unit of five has - every time I've seen them - vaporized my LR at their leisure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorticone Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Thanks for the valuable tips so far, especially the Eldar thread about the units. Very nicely written. Here is my army list, first draft. Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armor (with Null Zone and some other power) 5 Assault Terminators with hammer/shield riding in a LR Redeemer Tactical Squad with Flamer and Hvy Bolter; Sgt with PW; riding in a Rhino Tactical Squad with Flamer and Missile Launcher 5 Sniper Scouts with Missile Launcher 3 Space Marine Bikes with 1 Flamer, 1 Melta and Sgt with PF 1 Land Speeder with HF/MM 5 Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers Land Raider Helios Vindicator Vindicator Predator with Autocannon and Lascannon sponsons As I will set up three buildings as objectives, the central one will be taken by the Devastators. The other two will be taken by the Sniper Scouts and the Tactical Squad without transport. The Librarian will accompany the Tactical Squad and be in the bunker closest to the Eldar drop zone. The LR Helios will start on the table in a far away corner. The rest of the units will all start in reserve. Or would I better leave everything not inside a building in reserve? LR should be pretty safe from the firestorm though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Don't start with any tanks on the the table... Lance Weapons and occasionally Fire Dragons. I forgot about those. Lances Weaps treat all armor that's AV12 or more as only AV12. Fire Dragons are cheap suicide squads that all have melta guns...which might rapid-fire. I can't recall, but a unit of five has - every time I've seen them - vaporized my LR at their leisure. They cant rapid fire, and their not suicide squads unless your opponent is an idiot. Theyre basic weapon is identical in function to an imperial meltagun, the exarch gets one with an extended range. Theyre an elites choice, 5- sans exarch- of them runs you 80pts, and their transports are a minimum of 100pts, and often run closer to 150. Frankly, theres nothing wrong with having a decent supply of tanks etc on the board- but if your going to do that take the trench network. Itll give all of them a cover save during the firestorm and the first turn- and thatll save you alot of heartache. Since its just a blanket coversave its not affected by the ordnance barrage quality of these firestorm. I like your list in general. Im not sure about the vindicators- in an all around engagement like this their fixed weaponry becomes useless upon immobilization- but if theyre coming in from reserves you have a decent shot at getting a good sucker punch in with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 They cant rapid fire, and their not suicide squads unless your opponent is an idiot. Theyre basic weapon is identical in function to an imperial meltagun, the exarch gets one with an extended range. If your opponent is using them to frag a Land Raider, whatever was in the Land Raider is subsequently going to splat them, because their effective range is very short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Wich is why the old ones provided one with brightlances- to frag landraiders, so the fire dragons could frag the terminators inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Which is why the Emperor gave Lascannon, Missile Launcher & Autocannon a 48" range, to off the flimsy Eldar tech before it gets in range. Seriously, why does incredibly advanced Eldar tech only have a 36" range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Ah, lets ask the fundamental questions first- why is it BS 3? Answer: because most marine players already throw fits about what the eldar can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Which is why the Emperor gave Lascannon, Missile Launcher & Autocannon a 48" range, to off the flimsy Eldar tech before it gets in range. Seriously, why does incredibly advanced Eldar tech only have a 36" range? Dang here was me thinking my Fire Prism had a range of 60"... Ah, lets ask the fundamental questions first- why is it BS 3? Answer: because most marine players already throw fits about what the eldar can do. Because... they don't train their tank crews and only but targeting arrays on the Fire Prisms? Warp Spiders are Broken because they have a 3+ save... or so I am told... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 My frequent Eldar opponent's justification for sacrificing his Fire Dragons was cost-to-benefit ratio: the fire dragons cost less than the transport they're vaporizing, so if they do die to whatever's in the Raider, he wasn't too broken up about it...given the awkward position the Raider's contents has to put themselves in when killing said Fire Dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 My frequent Eldar opponent's justification for sacrificing his Fire Dragons was cost-to-benefit ratio: the fire dragons cost less than the transport they're vaporizing, so if they do die to whatever's in the Raider, he wasn't too broken up about it...given the awkward position the Raider's contents has to put themselves in when killing said Fire Dragons. Fire Dragons + Dire Avengers... Fire Dragons kill transport... Avengers kill the stuff inside... everyone (Well Everyone Eldar) gets back in transports and gos for cocktails! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 My frequent Eldar opponent's justification for sacrificing his Fire Dragons was cost-to-benefit ratio: the fire dragons cost less than the transport they're vaporizing, so if they do die to whatever's in the Raider, he wasn't too broken up about it...given the awkward position the Raider's contents has to put themselves in when killing said Fire Dragons. Fire Dragons + Dire Avengers... Fire Dragons kill transport... Avengers kill the stuff inside... everyone (Well Everyone Eldar) gets back in transports and gos for cocktails! I had a friend who tried that on my Tactical squad in Rhino once, lets just say that the Fire Dragons didn't keep their end of the bargain, leaving the Dire Avengers open to being flamed by the Sternguard squad's heavy flamer while the Tactical squad got out and shot down the Fire Dragons. As this is a game of luck I ask why you can't use two squads of Fire Dragons in this situation :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticaria Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 My frequent Eldar opponent's justification for sacrificing his Fire Dragons was cost-to-benefit ratio: the fire dragons cost less than the transport they're vaporizing, so if they do die to whatever's in the Raider, he wasn't too broken up about it...given the awkward position the Raider's contents has to put themselves in when killing said Fire Dragons. Fire Dragons + Dire Avengers... Fire Dragons kill transport... Avengers kill the stuff inside... everyone (Well Everyone Eldar) gets back in transports and gos for cocktails! I had a friend who tried that on my Tactical squad in Rhino once, lets just say that the Fire Dragons didn't keep their end of the bargain, leaving the Dire Avengers open to being flamed by the Sternguard squad's heavy flamer while the Tactical squad got out and shot down the Fire Dragons. As this is a game of luck I ask why you can't use two squads of Fire Dragons in this situation :lol:. Becasue you can take 6 troop choices but only 3 elite choices? -Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Fire Dragons are wasted on Rhinos...especially if there are no Land Raiders. They ought to be shooting the Sternguard. :lol: We're talking about savvy Eldar players here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 @ Myst, fair point, the force org chart can be annoying at times can't it? ;) @ thade, and he was savy, it was an objective game, so taking the Tactical squad out meant that I would have had one scoring unit left that was half way across the board speeding towards his objective, he would have had to hop them back into the Serpent and intercept. At that point no there was no reason to choose Sternguard over Tactical squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Those wily Eldar xenos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorticone Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 My Librarians intercepted an encrypted Eldar message. From what our cryptography experts could make of it, it seems like we will face Swooping Hawks and a special character. It appears to be some special aspect warrior. (At least he leaves Eldrad home. Emperor, how I hate his Eldrad+Council+Avatar deathstar...) So I guess I can tailor my list a little and take some less vehicles and more shooty troops. Maybe a second Devastator squad which I could combat squad with 2 Hvy Bolters and 2 Plasma Cannons and set those troops in some fortified position on the battlefield. Probably leaving out the Vindicator and putting in an Ironclad for anti-infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I had a friend who tried that on my Tactical squad in Rhino once, lets just say that the Fire Dragons didn't keep their end of the bargain, leaving the Dire Avengers open to being flamed by the Sternguard squad's heavy flamer while the Tactical squad got out and shot down the Fire Dragons. As this is a game of luck I ask why you can't use two squads of Fire Dragons in this situation :D. Transports are supposed to be positioned so that you can shoot but that you get some protection from enemy fire and assault... at least that's how I play my Eldar B) Also between three units of fire dragons a few fire prisms and a handful of dire avengers... you would have thought something could kill a squad of Sternguard and still leave some fire dragons and Dire Avengers free... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Transports are supposed to be positioned so that you can shoot but that you get some protection from enemy fire and assault... at least that's how I play my Eldar :D Also between three units of fire dragons a few fire prisms and a handful of dire avengers... you would have thought something could kill a squad of Sternguard and still leave some fire dragons and Dire Avengers free... My transport was hiding behind a massive rock, damned Eldar speed tricks. It was 1000pts mind, and he doesn't like Fire Prisms, which I understand as dedicated anti-tank should not have the option of sliding off the tank thanks to scatter dice. @OP, which special character is he bringing? I'd imagine Asurman, you don't see any others. As for Swooping Hawks, they shouldn't be too much of a threat against power armour, they're better against Imperial Guard and other lightly armoured armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 What swooping hawks are is a major threat to any vehicle on the board- including those bastions. A good counter would just be taking those quad-guns, they get a good rate of AP 4 firepower. And it might be asurmen- in wich case keep your HQs away from him and remember he has no grenades- but it might be baharoth. Hes a little squishier, but other than shootem when you see him theres not alot you can do about the guy- between fleet, jump infantry, and skyleap you wont be catching him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorticone Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Interceptor Guns are a solid suggestion, I guess I will take a reasonable amount. I do not know which character he brings, he just mentioned he will not play Eldrad but someone else. And he mentioned something about playtesting Warp Spiders in this battle. Really not sure what I can expect on Saturday, but I will post some results after the match. :rolleyes: Also I will need to think of a way to deny him one flank with terrain/setup, so I can deny another flank with the Drop Zone Denial stratagem. But against skimmers, that's gonna be tough as he can just fly over my forests/hills... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Warp Spiders.... good all around unit- expect him to take the grenades strategem so they all have meltabombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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