Initiative with Arjac and Jaws

[skoll]

Arjack reduces you to initiative one then I use jaws. they test on initiative 1 right? Nowhere on the power does it say that it uses unmodified value. Im asking because i've read the combo countless times but yesterday I had an argument against nids about it. (twas from two different squads so the argument is not about the shots being simultaneous)

[Max_Dammit]

I play it like that yeah

[slmellon]

I know I have seen threads like this on here before. That from what I remember is the tactic. Throw Arjacs Hammer and then Jaws them. I think in one thread they were using it against wraithlords (not the jaws part, just the hammer and assault) and in another against HQ units. I would tell you to search, but if you are anything like me, You wont know how to search properly without getting 1000 search results

[Brother_Byhlli]

Makes sense to me. Thunder hammer stuns its target immediately on causing an unsaved wound, right? I can imagine that a target that just took a thunder hammer to the chops and survived might be a bit more susceptible to falling into a hole-in-the-ground.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have access to my rule book at the moment so I couldn't give you a more definite answer than "I think so".

[skoll]

RAW it would work, since nothing in our codex or the BRRB contradicts it. But I wanted to know if anybody has used in a gw sanctioned event and been told otherwise

[dswanick]

Q. Is a model that has suffered an unsaved wound, but hasnʼt been killed, from Arjac throwing his Foehammer

reduced to initiative 1 until the end of the next player turn? (p51)

A. Yes.

Jaws of the World Wolf

...

Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must make an Initiative test.

...

'nough said? ;)

[Brother_Byhlli]

Actually, I just looked at page 51, at Arjac's profile. It doesn't say anything about stunning models with the ranged attack. The direct quote is "The Foehammer is a thunder hmmer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile: Range 6"; Strength 10; AP 1; Type Assault 1".

 

Not one single part of that says to me that Foehammer stuns its target when used as a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons don't typically stun opponents; strength 10 weapons don't typically stun opponents; AP 1 weapons don't typically stun opponents and Assault 1 weapons don't typically stun opponents.

 

The way I read it, if you use Foehammer in close combat, it stuns its target as per usual. But if you throw it, you don't use it as a thunder hammer - you use it as a ranged weapon with a very specific profile.

 

If Games Workshop have specified that Foehammer stuns its target when used as a ranged weapon, then I agree that stunning the target with Foehammer and using Jaws of the World Wolf works exactly as you suggest. But if Games Workshop hasn't clarified that, I wouldn't use it against opponents and I'd probably be quite unhappy about someone using it against me.

[Iacton Qruze]

Actually, I just looked at page 51, at Arjac's profile. It doesn't say anything about stunning models with the ranged attack. The direct quote is "The Foehammer is a thunder hmmer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile: Range 6"; Strength 10; AP 1; Type Assault 1".

 

Not one single part of that says to me that Foehammer stuns its target when used as a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons don't typically stun opponents; strength 10 weapons don't typically stun opponents; AP 1 weapons don't typically stun opponents and Assault 1 weapons don't typically stun opponents.

 

The way I read it, if you use Foehammer in close combat, it stuns its target as per usual. But if you throw it, you don't use it as a thunder hammer - you use it as a ranged weapon with a very specific profile.

 

If Games Workshop have specified that Foehammer stuns its target when used as a ranged weapon, then I agree that stunning the target with Foehammer and using Jaws of the World Wolf works exactly as you suggest. But if Games Workshop hasn't clarified that, I wouldn't use it against opponents and I'd probably be quite unhappy about someone using it against me.

 

GW has specified in their FAQ that the thrown Thunderhammer still reduces you to I1, as Dswanick cited above.

[Decoy]

In addition to the Dswanick quote, can I refer you to the part here?

 

"The Foehammer is a thunder hammer"

[Brother_Byhlli]

GW has specified in their FAQ that the thrown Thunderhammer still reduces you to I1, as Dswanick cited above.

 

Excellent. That's helpful, thanks!

[Brother_Byhlli]

In addition to the Dswanick quote, can I refer you to the part here?

 

"The Foehammer is a thunder hammer"

 

Meh. Obviously this issue is unclear, or Games Workshop wouldn't have released an FAQ covering it.

 

There are plenty of weapons that have dual profiles and none of them (that I can think of) allow you to use special rules for one profile if you use the second profile.

 

Examples: infernus pistols are melta when they shoot; they're not melta in close combat. The Axe Morkai is used as a powerfist or as a frost weapon. Cyclone missile launchers can fire krak missiles or frag missiles.

 

(The latter two examples are perhaps less useful, but the example of pistols being used as close combat weapons or ranged weapons is pretty much exactly what we're talking about regarding Foehammer.)

 

The way I read the rule for Arjac, it can be used as a thunder hammer or a ranged weapon.

 

But, it's a moot point and the argument is worthless. Games Workshop have clarified and we're the lucky recipients of a boo-yah! weapon. :P

[Decoy]

Games Workshop have clarified and we're the lucky recipients of a boo-yah! weapon. :P

 

 

Indeed. The process of using the Hammer to I1 an opponent and then Jaws him is called Hammarjacing. However, in order to do it properly, you need to stop right before you roll the to-hit, and sing "Stop. It's Hammer Time!" or some variation.

[Brother_Byhlli]

However, in order to do it properly, you need to stop right before you roll the to-hit, and sing "Stop. It's Hammer Time!" or some variation.

 

We need a "like" button!!!!!!

[breng77]

I would say no that this would not work, here is why

 

1.) Characteristic tests are taken on the characteristic in question. FOr Example a marine with a fist still takes his initiative test on Initiative 4 as a fist only states that the model strikes at Initiative 1 not that the user is Initiative 1.

2.) The rules for a Thunderhammer state that the model wounded but not killed will attack at initiative 1 during the next assault phase. This rules out Jaws for 2 reasons, the model is not I 1 it simply strikes at I 1, further more it specifies that this penalty is during the next assault phase, Jaws happens during shooting.

 

I could have this wrong but that is my take.

[Decoy]

I would say no that this would not work, here is why

 

1.) Characteristic tests are taken on the characteristic in question. FOr Example a marine with a fist still takes his initiative test on Initiative 4 as a fist only states that the model strikes at Initiative 1 not that the user is Initiative 1.

2.) The rules for a Thunderhammer state that the model wounded but not killed will attack at initiative 1 during the next assault phase. This rules out Jaws for 2 reasons, the model is not I 1 it simply strikes at I 1, further more it specifies that this penalty is during the next assault phase, Jaws happens during shooting.

 

I could have this wrong but that is my take.

 

 

Well, Breng, your problem is that your rules for "Thunderhammer" are wrong. The wording is precise: I can only paraphrase at the moment, but I believe it's something like "Any model hit by a thunderhammer is reduced to Initiative 1", but not for the Assault Phase, not -in- the assault phase. Just until the next turn, I believe. That covers Shooting attacks.

 

That covers the issue in your 1.) point as well: Thunderhammers make the hit model Initiative 1. It's Initiative quality, thanks to the Hammer, literally becomes 1. Not "Goes last" or "strikes at I1", but the model -is I1.- Since it is not a modified characteristic (since modified characteristics are fairly clearly defined as non-stat-based changes), for all intents and purposes, the Characteristic test would be made at I1.

[breng77]

I'll have to check from home the only copy I have of the rules here at work are the leaked 5th ed rule book, which is why I was not positive. Looking at the wording in the FAQ posted here I would agree that if the model is I 1 then it would work.

[dswanick]

Thunder hammers

...

In addition, all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's turn.

...

[Brother_Byhlli]

Thunder hammers

...

In addition, all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's turn.

...

 

QED and QFT.

[breng77]

Works for me, it is such a rare situation that it is not really worth arguing over (Arjac would be the only way to reliably pull this off.)

[MalachiOfRuss]

Here's the counter argument: If a model hit by a TH in the Close Combat breaks at the end of the combat, do you use Init 1 when testing for Sweeping Advance? If not there then why for Jaws?

[dswanick]

Here's the counter argument: If a model hit by a TH in the Close Combat breaks at the end of the combat, do you use Init 1 when testing for Sweeping Advance? If not there then why for Jaws?

Because the rules for Sweeping Advance in the BRB specify to add the models Initiative value from their profile without modifiers.

[Spacefrisian]

Side note: Jaws uses the Iniative provided on the profile of the target(s), even with hammer time that I value isnt reduced to 1.

 

Page 8 of brb.

[dswanick]

Side note: Jaws uses the Iniative provided on the profile of the target(s), even with hammer time that I value isnt reduced to 1.

 

Page 8 of brb.

CHARACTERISTIC TESTS

...

In order to take the test, rolla d6. To succeed, you must score equal to or lower than the value of the characteristic involved.

...

What does page 8 of the BRB have to do with it? It just describes the general procedure for taking Characteristic tests, and in this case the value of the models Initiative characteristic is 1 until the end of the next players turn. The Sweeping Advance rule has a specific exception built in that the test uses the original, un-modified characteristic - Jaws has no such wording.

[Iacton Qruze]

I see nothing on page 8 that suggests the reduction in initiative wouldn't apply to the jaws test.

[Blacksad]

don't have the BRB on me now, but doesn't it state somewhere that all non-ld characteristic tests are always on the unmodified chracteristic?