Capt. Taurus Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 NO I am serious unless you have read the entire HH series up to TFH you should get lost right now in order to preserve the pleasure of reading for yourself. You have been warned, I won't use spoiler bars. ' ' ' ' ' So I finished the TFH yesterday and after hearing how awesome and great it was...all i can say is...it is indeed. It was different than I expected but the best work of the series nonetheless. To be precise, the book achieved a number of things. ---first and foremost it devoured my frail loyalist soul ---it drove my love and adoration for Guilliman to undreamt of heights ---opened my eyes to the fact that Corax is probably one of the most heroic and impressive loyalist Primarchs ever, he dived head first into the melee facing his traitor brothers just to save as many of his Astartes as possible. But this brings me to the reason I started this topic, I recently proposed starting a topic to discuss which of the traitor Primarchs is the most despicable. With TFH in place and the other books telling of many other traitor legions, the picture is becoming more complete. I have been warned not to start such a topic on account of it ending in a fanboy contest with hurt pride and gleeful gloating. But I figure this is important, after all this is the cataclysmic turning point of the universe we all love. And the motivations of the Primarchs who betrayed the Imperium are vastly different from each other. I am very much torn between hating either Fulgrim, or Curze the most, then I remember it was Lorgar who essentially started it all, on the other hand I cannot forget how Angron went to Istvaan III to personally butcher his loyalist Astartes. What would you say, I mean the motivation of Mortarion for one is pretty much obscure to me, it may simply have been greater loyalty towards Horus than Daddy. Adherents of the great four are heartily invited to share their views :cuss EDIT: typos Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 The most despicable, you say? Why, Lorgar, of course. If it wasn't for his damnable pride and burning need to worship something, there never would have been a Heresy to begin with. The Emperor would rule over a galaxy-wide realm protected by the eighteen Legions and free of the taint of xenos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 By despicable i understand someone who is shifty and without moral backbone. So my contesters were Lion and Perturabo. After 'Savage Weapons' it is only Perturabo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 The most despicable, you say? Why, Lorgar, of course. If it wasn't for his damnable pride and burning need to worship something, there never would have been a Heresy to begin with. The Emperor would rule over a galaxy-wide realm protected by the eighteen Legions and free of the taint of xenos. Yes true, but he appeared so abject and pathetic. As you said he was driven by the need to worship something and that makes him in a way a victim of his own convictions. He behaved like a rejected child feeling treated unfairly by Dad. In a way his quest for divinity was a way for him to show the Emperor the error of his ways. So Lorgar is a psychological weakling if you will, I mean he is even blind to the manipulation of himself exerted by his inferiors (Kor Phaeron & Erebus) Fulgrim on the other hand is driven by vanity, arrogance and very low standards of showmanship. Angron is simply interested in wreaking havoc, but that was done to him by his slave masters. My vote goes to Fulgrim, that wretch deserved everything he has gotten from that daemon that possessed him. By despicable i understand someone who is shifty and without moral backbone. So my contesters were Lion and Perturabo. After 'Savage Weapons' it is only Perturabo. I haven't read Age of Darkness yet, so please, I beg you no spoilers. But the Lion? Why? He just didn't get that Perturabo was a traitor, he thought he was supplying a loyalist brother with weapons he would best put to use. Please enlighten me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 But the Lion? Why? He just didn't get that Perturabo was a traitor, he thought he was supplying a loyalist brother with weapons he would best put to use. Please enlighten me. Whose side the Lion was on was finally confirmed and sealed in the short story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Horus - A guy organised to have you mortally wounded...then pretended to be someone else so you might trust him. One of your own BROTHERS tells you he's a traitor(and a sorcery practiser)...and you still listen to this guy? Sure I mean you can really trust him can't you... Angron - So you were just angry and bloodthirsty Lorgar - Really? That desperate? Magnus - Naive idiot, more interested in justifying himself. Fulgrim - Would you do anything your sword told you to? What if it told you to jump off a cliff eh? <_< Perturabo - You threw a tantrum, because you were being used for what you're good at? Cruze - Psychotic Batman in power armour...More Pity than anything Mortarion - Why did you even turn? Alpharius - Xenos lied?..its not a hard concept? It's a sorry list. I mean several of them its just a bit pathetic. For example its very hard to despise Cruze, he's more an object of pity. And while contempt comes easy upon Magnus, but again, not despicable. I suppose Fulgrim is despicable. Just so proud to the point of arrogance, and then some. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim horatio Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I am very much torn between hating either Fulgrim, or Curze the most, then I remember it was Lorgar who essentially started it all, on the other hand I cannot forget how Angron went to Istvaan III to personally butcher his loyalist Astartes. How could you hate Curze? He did what the emperor told him to do, then everyone got steamed at him for doing it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 How could you hate Curze? He did what the emperor told him to do, then everyone got steamed at him for doing it! Did he really do what the Emperor told him to do or did he just abuse Emperor's orders for his own psychopathic ideals? "The Dark King" was a fine example to show how could the Emperor's orders be done in different ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Horus - A guy organised to have you mortally wounded...then pretended to be someone else so you might trust him. One of your own BROTHERS tells you he's a traitor(and a sorcery practiser)...and you still listen to this guy? Sure I mean you can really trust him can't you... Seriously, you got that one right. Angron - So you were just angry and bloodthirsty Well that didn't necessitate turning from the Emperor, I guess it is the Emperor's fault for not having put Angron into the war theatres where he could live out his nature. Lorgar - Really? That desperate? Don't belittle that, after all the Emperor could have been a bit more compromising instead of unleashing Guilliman on Lorgar's pride. Magnus - Naive idiot, more interested in justifying himself. That is a bit harsh isn't it, after all Magnus was loyal to the core and simply made a mistake. Fulgrim - Would you do anything your sword told you to? What if it told you to jump off a cliff eh? ;) LOL..., if only it had Perturabo - You threw a tantrum, because you were being used for what you're good at?Cruze - Psychotic Batman in power armour...More Pity than anything Perty und Curze those are the actual maniacs, they have no excuse like >> "someone jammed a rage inducing gadget into my cranium" Mortarion - Why did you even turn? Exactly!! Alpharius - Xenos lied?..its not a hard concept? It's a sorry list. I mean several of them its just a bit pathetic. For example its very hard to despise Cruze, he's more an object of pity. And while contempt comes easy upon Magnus, but again, not despicable. I suppose Fulgrim is despicable. Just so proud to the point of arrogance, and then some. :P I was actually becoming fond of Curze the very moment I started hating him, I thought damn what a loss. I cannot despise Magnus, he is the most tragic figure, having fallen victim to his ambitions of vindication and desire to warn Daddy. It all comes down to Fulgrim. How could you hate Curze? He did what the emperor told him to do, then everyone got steamed at him for doing it! I actually like him and I hate the guys I like for having turned traitor with a special passion. But he attacked Corax and immediately tried to kill him, not very brotherly is it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I never liked Fulgrim, but to keep it biased free, I would have to go for Perturabo. I'm fairly certain he would have joined the team Rogal Dorn wasn't on either way. Pretty despicable reason IMO. Then again I feel he was one of the more level headed primarchs. Maybe just needed a cuddle? Paradill Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim horatio Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Did he really do what the Emperor told him to do or did he just abuse Emperor's orders for his own psychopathic ideals? "The Dark King" was a fine example to show how could the Emperor's orders be done in different ways. I actually like him and I hate the guys I like for having turned traitor with a special passion. But he attacked Corax and immediately tried to kill him, not very brotherly is it. Fair, he was a bit mental. but, to make excuses for him, he did forsee that the emperor was going to kill him and when he told his brothers they attacked him! or at least Dorn anyway. Plus, the only primarch to grow up with no human influences. even the lion got luther eventually. but yeah not the nicest guy but i've always had a soft spot for him. Like Tutteman said, Psychotic Batman, what's not to like! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Fulgrim was always loyal, after all the Emperors Children were the only legion allowed to bear the aquila. His fate I always find the most tragic of all. He killed his closest brother and watched his legion descend into everything he was against. I always thought if Guilliman had fought the Laer, he too would lost himself in Slaneesh! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Lorgar - Really? That desperate? Don't belittle that, after all the Emperor could have been a bit more compromising instead of unleashing Guilliman on Lorgar's pride. That really was an odd bit of story, the Emperor sending Guilliman to confront Lorgar about it. Guilliman was making the fastest progress out of all the Primarch in the Crusade, and the Emperor was momentarily removing him from his duties just to make a point to Lorgar? Not to mention that Guilliman had allways been careful to minimize colateral damage on the worlds he conquered, so having to wipe out a few cities was not exactly an easy asignment for him either. It really does not make much sense, other than that Lorgar had to have some reason to hate Guilliman. (At least A D-B could have given us some taste of the Emperor "championing" the Ultramarines, which the Index Astartes Word Bearers had described as the original reason for Lorgar's animosity.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Exorcist Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Horus - A guy organised to have you mortally wounded...then pretended to be someone else so you might trust him. One of your own BROTHERS tells you he's a traitor(and a sorcery practiser)...and you still listen to this guy? Sure I mean you can really trust him can't you...Angron - So you were just angry and bloodthirsty Lorgar - Really? That desperate? Magnus - Naive idiot, more interested in justifying himself. Fulgrim - Would you do anything your sword told you to? What if it told you to jump off a cliff eh? ^_^ Perturabo - You threw a tantrum, because you were being used for what you're good at? Cruze - Psychotic Batman in power armour...More Pity than anything Mortarion - Why did you even turn? Alpharius - Xenos lied?..its not a hard concept? It's a sorry list. I mean several of them its just a bit pathetic. For example its very hard to despise Cruze, he's more an object of pity. And while contempt comes easy upon Magnus, but again, not despicable. I suppose Fulgrim is despicable. Just so proud to the point of arrogance, and then some. Fulgrim really thought it was his own concience at first, and believed that what he was doing was right for the legions, then slowly and slowly was enthralled by the blade. Perturabo's reason wasnt spineless....his legion had been used as a battering ram for the most inbregnable fortresses, toiling and dying in the mud while his brothers banners fly in victory. He just wanted the praise he deserved....and he hates dorn. (i think mortarion runs along similar lines, along with close friendship with horus) Cruze didnt really end up caring about his legion....just the obcure lesson to the Emperor. my 2 kraks ME Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrix Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I kind of like Lorgar actually. He is the only Primarch whose personality seems to go against his so-called nature. He is a priest, not a general. While all the other Primarchs were generals and warriors of various calibers and subsets, Lorgar was the one whom the nascent Imperium would need most after the Great Crusade's conclusion. The likes of Angron and Curze? They were weapons to be discarded and that is its own separate tragedy. Lorgar? He was never a weapon, he was a chisel: a tool for sculpting the conquered lands of the Imperium into the very picture of perfection. Unfortunately, the image Lorgar sculpted was not what his father desired. So, the Emperor shrugged off the mantle of deity and took up the hammer of iconoclasm, thereby destroying all Lorgar had built and thrusting his "wayward" son onto a path that he did not desire. Does this absolve Lorgar of all blame? Of course not. But of all the Primarchs, his tale is one of a perhaps more subtle tragedy. He was never a warrior of Angron or Russ' caliber, nor a general like Horus or Gulliman. Alone of all his brothers, he was devoted towards building their father's empire through methods other than blade and bolter. Unfortunately for the Urizen, the way in which his nation-building and peacemaking manifested was detrimental to the Emperor's grand plan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim horatio Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I kind of like Lorgar actually. He is the only Primarch whose personality seems to go against his so-called nature. He is a priest, not a general. While all the other Primarchs were generals and warriors of various calibers and subsets, Lorgar was the one whom the nascent Imperium would need most after the Great Crusade's conclusion. The likes of Angron and Curze? They were weapons to be discarded and that is its own separate tragedy. Lorgar? He was never a weapon, he was a chisel: a tool for sculpting the conquered lands of the Imperium into the very picture of perfection. Unfortunately, the image Lorgar sculpted was not what his father desired. So, the Emperor shrugged off the mantle of deity and took up the hammer of iconoclasm, thereby destroying all Lorgar had built and thrusting his "wayward" son onto a path that he did not desire. Does this absolve Lorgar of all blame? Of course not. But of all the Primarchs, his tale is one of a perhaps more subtle tragedy. He was never a warrior of Angron or Russ' caliber, nor a general like Horus or Gulliman. Alone of all his brothers, he was devoted towards building their father's empire through methods other than blade and bolter. Unfortunately for the Urizen, the way in which his nation-building and peacemaking manifested was detrimental to the Emperor's grand plan. Very well put! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Lorgar is the most despicable to me because he is the weakest mentally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Exorcist Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Lorgar is the most despicable to me because he is the weakest mentally. well, the only reason lorgar could be seen as such is due to a problem that he and the Lion both have that causes future difficulties. Unlike most other primarchs, their pre-discovery fathers stay by their side, lorgar cant be seen as gullible if whats he 's been told comes from someone he fully trusts and respects (kor phaeron). He also had lost his main focus in his life in a devastating way on Monarchia. ME Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Didn't Curze end up hating his own Legion? I thought I read something along those lines in Soul Hunter. Just a random, off-topic thing. Also, to whoever said Konrad tried to immediately kill Corax, did he? All I recall was him stopping Lorgar from being killed and grabbing onto Corax's arm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Mortarion turned after Typhon lured him into the warp where Nurgle trapped them and gave Montarion and the rest of the Death Guard Nurgle's Rot. After they'd suffered long enough, Nurgle offered them to "help" them in exchange for their souls. (It's amazing what you'll agree to when your snot is the only thing holding your fevered body together!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Lorgar is the most despicable to me because he is the weakest mentally. well, the only reason lorgar could be seen as such is due to a problem that he and the Lion both have that causes future difficulties. Unlike most other primarchs, their pre-discovery fathers stay by their side, lorgar cant be seen as gullible if whats he 's been told comes from someone he fully trusts and respects (kor phaeron). He also had lost his main focus in his life in a devastating way on Monarchia. ME But the lion is a boss despite that flaw. Doesn't hurt that he is based on a knights way of doing things. Being based on a preacher/demagogue with a huge crisis of faith and plagued with indecision isn't heroic or cool. I felt he also refused to take responsibility. I don't really despise lorgar (he's fictional) but he remains lame in my eyes until he is written about again by ADB as the zealot asskicker of the chaos gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Mortarion turned after Typhon lured him into the warp where Nurgle trapped them and gave Montarion and the rest of the Death Guard Nurgle's Rot. Actually it was destroyer plague. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Mortarion turned after Typhon lured him into the warp where Nurgle trapped them and gave Montarion and the rest of the Death Guard Nurgle's Rot. After they'd suffered long enough, Nurgle offered them to "help" them in exchange for their souls. (It's amazing what you'll agree to when your snot is the only thing holding your fevered body together!) The problem here though is that Morty had already joined Horus, long before the DG were trapped in the warp and turned into the filthy scumbags we know. So the question still stands, why? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 I kind of like Lorgar actually. He is the only Primarch whose personality seems to go against his so-called nature. He is a priest, not a general. While all the other Primarchs were generals and warriors of various calibers and subsets, Lorgar was the one whom the nascent Imperium would need most after the Great Crusade's conclusion. The likes of Angron and Curze? They were weapons to be discarded and that is its own separate tragedy. Lorgar? He was never a weapon, he was a chisel: a tool for sculpting the conquered lands of the Imperium into the very picture of perfection. Unfortunately, the image Lorgar sculpted was not what his father desired. So, the Emperor shrugged off the mantle of deity and took up the hammer of iconoclasm, thereby destroying all Lorgar had built and thrusting his "wayward" son onto a path that he did not desire. Does this absolve Lorgar of all blame? Of course not. But of all the Primarchs, his tale is one of a perhaps more subtle tragedy. He was never a warrior of Angron or Russ' caliber, nor a general like Horus or Gulliman. Alone of all his brothers, he was devoted towards building their father's empire through methods other than blade and bolter. Unfortunately for the Urizen, the way in which his nation-building and peacemaking manifested was detrimental to the Emperor's grand plan. You are raising a very interesting point. I actually had this very same thought when I read the first chapters of TFH. It seemed to me that Lorgar and Magnus were the kind of Primarchs the Imperium would be in need of when it came to stabilising the territorial gains. The faith based spirit and rhetoric skill of Lorgar would kindle unswerving loyalty and devotion in the imperial citizenry. Magnus on the other hand was essentially needed in the Golden Throne and as the Emperor's main psychic weapon against the Warp. What did the Emperor do in the light of the crusade being in its early "war only" stage? He alienated and publicly humiliated his two most unusual sons who would have become the greatest assets to the Imperium's survival, thereby driving them into treason. That may sound simplistic but that is pretty much how I see it. Didn't Curze end up hating his own Legion? I thought I read something along those lines in Soul Hunter. Just a random, off-topic thing. Also, to whoever said Konrad tried to immediately kill Corax, did he? All I recall was him stopping Lorgar from being killed and grabbing onto Corax's arm. That was me and think it is so. Yes he was stopping him from killing Lorgar but he didn't even do that out of brotherly love for Lorgar, it was more to deny a loyalist lapdog a victory in such an early stage of the Heresy. Corax was the one trying to reason with them, pleading with them asking for their reasons and what "madness befallen them all". Curze comes in and says "look into my eyes and see your death", damn.. even Lorgar felt sorrow when watching Fulgrim fight Ferrus!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2808851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mc wazzahamma Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Though I still think the sudden speed that Lorgar and his legion turned on the man/father figure that they loved so dearly was a little hard for me to swallow (if someone we cherish hurts us through rejection, no matter how badly, we spend some time wanting to regain their love and approval. even if we try to get that in a hurtful or vengeful manner). I can agree that Lorgar is one of the more emotionally motivated primarchs and not so independent in his mental fortitude as his brothers (at least in this stage of his life. He strikes me as a primarch who's yet to fully grow up), I think some stock should be put into Lorgar's own rationalisations for his behaviour and choices. He becomes concerned with the "truth" of the universe and not simply "worship" for its own sake. Perhaps that's why his seemingly unshakeable faith in the emperor was actually so EASILY shaken. On some subconscious level, he knew the Emperor was always lying to him and to humankind. For whatever reasons, the Imperial truth was a falsehood. Which begs the question "why?". Why create this lie? This simple and reasonable question can turn into a burning vendetta in the face of painful and humiliating rejection from the one who creates the lie in the first place. The way ADB writes Lorgar in the beginning, it seems that he has ALWAYS directed his legion's actions in an indirect attempt to call out the Emperor on his lie. To test him and push him to confess to his own godhood. By defying the Emperor's explicit wishes in the crusade and doing what he believes the Emperor should want, Lorgar has been trying to call his father out. I'd almost say that he pushed things to a breaking point on Monarchia for this purpose. And to his mind and the mind of his legion, Monarchia was not only a shame filled display, it was the Emperor's biggest and most boldfaced lie to his son. So, they determine to find the truth no matter how ugly or how horrible. And when they find it, it is too ugly. Too horrible to fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/#findComment-2809097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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