The First Heretic, those in the know gather!

[Olis]

Mortarion turned after Typhon lured him into the warp where Nurgle trapped them and gave Montarion and the rest of the Death Guard Nurgle's Rot. After they'd suffered long enough, Nurgle offered them to "help" them in exchange for their souls. (It's amazing what you'll agree to when your snot is the only thing holding your fevered body together!)

The problem here though is that Morty had already joined Horus, long before the DG were trapped in the warp and turned into the filthy scumbags we know. So the question still stands, why?

 

This. As I understand it (well, vaguely remember) the Legion as a whole and Mortarion only gave their souls away to Nurgle when plague visited them whilst they were trapped in the warp (iirc) en route to Terra.

[Aegnor]

I think that's correct actually, they'd sided with Horus, but my converted to Chaos til then. Mortarion's turn was then probably down to having contempt and impatience for anything other than the brutal application of force, and hece being susceptible to Horus' overtures as to how stupid the imperial tithe, Administratus, and civilian interference was.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Mortarion always resented the Emperor, as he felt the Emperor cheated in their deal as to whether Mortarion joined him or not. Over time, this grew, and Mortarion didn't want to see the Primarchs and Legions tossed aside in favour of politicians who hadn't fought and died for the Imperium.

[Capt. Taurus]

Though I still think the sudden speed that Lorgar and his legion turned on the man/father figure that they loved so dearly was a little hard for me to swallow (if someone we cherish hurts us through rejection, no matter how badly, we spend some time wanting to regain their love and approval. even if we try to get that in a hurtful or vengeful manner).

 

I can agree that Lorgar is one of the more emotionally motivated primarchs and not so independent in his mental fortitude as his brothers (at least in this stage of his life. He strikes me as a primarch who's yet to fully grow up), I think some stock should be put into Lorgar's own rationalisations for his behaviour and choices.

 

He becomes concerned with the "truth" of the universe and not simply "worship" for its own sake. Perhaps that's why his seemingly unshakeable faith in the emperor was actually so EASILY shaken. On some subconscious level, he knew the Emperor was always lying to him and to humankind. For whatever reasons, the Imperial truth was a falsehood.

 

Which begs the question "why?". Why create this lie? This simple and reasonable question can turn into a burning vendetta in the face of painful and humiliating rejection from the one who creates the lie in the first place.

 

The way ADB writes Lorgar in the beginning, it seems that he has ALWAYS directed his legion's actions in an indirect attempt to call out the Emperor on his lie. To test him and push him to confess to his own godhood. By defying the Emperor's explicit wishes in the crusade and doing what he believes the Emperor should want, Lorgar has been trying to call his father out.

 

I'd almost say that he pushed things to a breaking point on Monarchia for this purpose.

 

And to his mind and the mind of his legion, Monarchia was not only a shame filled display, it was the Emperor's biggest and most boldfaced lie to his son.

 

So, they determine to find the truth no matter how ugly or how horrible.

 

And when they find it, it is too ugly. Too horrible to fight.

 

That is all in all very plausible.

 

I would just add that Lorgar naturally knew that the Emperor rejected the notion of his divinity, hence he tried to, as you say, "push him" until he came around.

 

But we may be certain, that Lorgar didn't expect the E to make an example of him and shame him publicly. Actually the emotional outburst of Lorgar in Monarchia was probably one of the best aspects of the TFH.

 

We may also assume that Lorgar's search for divinity in the universe was a way of making the Emperor acquiesce to his godhood. "See daddy there are gods in this universe, will you cut the piety and step up the plate!?" Of course Lorgar didn't expect that he would become entangled with the powers he sought to the extent that they would begin dominating his actions. But yes, i think in the beginning he wanted the E to congregate with him on the concept of divinity and say "Son you convinced my of my divinity".

 

I say that because the Emperor is in many ways very god like, he wields powers that defy the natural laws of the material universe, he created 20 demigod warriors using his genome as a template and he was able to best any of them in single combat. Technically speaking the Emperor is a god, the irony is that the one human entity deserving of that title decided to wage a holy war on religion.

 

All of that makes Lorgar a very sad and tragic figure, so not as despicable as some of his siblings....say... Fulgrim!! A friend of mine to whom I talked about this said I'm crazy and that the arch-traitor himself is to be most disdained by every loyalist worth his money. But Horus is simply a fallen Star, a kind of sci-fi Macbeth if you will. Fulgrim is an entirely different story.

 

EDIT: Addendum>> I forgot to mention, that the Emperor is a shapeshifter too...godlike enough for ya?...still Lorgar the most despicable??

[Ubermensch Commander]

The award for "most despicable" amongst the traitor primarchs is a hotly contested one, IMO.

At best, all of them have personal gripes with the Emperor, none of them have any reason to betray their liege lord and father and murder their own brothers in battle.

Most of it comes off as simpering excuses.

 

Lorgar's whining excuse is perhaps the most pitiable. His "truth" is the cosmic lie that is Chaos. If you have read The First Heretic or any of the HH books, you will note that the Daemons lie. Alot. First about the Emperor's "ascent to Godhood" to Horus, then about the Eldar's fall to Lorgar amongst other things. Fell because they did not embrace Chaos my arse!

So not only does Lorgar commit acts that the Emperor considers horrendous, the IA describes his oppressive actions against subjegated worlds, forcing them to worship by the most brutal of methods, he does this in the face of the Emperor's repeated denial of his divinity. Monarchia may have been harsh, but that was because slapping Lorgar in the face with "Secular Imperial Truth", "I am not a God", "Go forth and conquere, its kinda why I gave you a Legion of Superwarriors to command" for over a century apparently did not get through to Lorgar.

And, of course, as a proclaimed "seeker of truth" he accepts the words of those who he finds out have been lying to him his entire life, and just gets on his knees in front of Chaos....no questions asked.

Some "philosopher" he turned out to be.

Accepting he did not like war, would not the act of a philosopher and one with true faith simply have been to WAIT and then turn to peaceful actions when the Imperium was cemented. Remember, one of Horus' arguments was that the Emperor would make them lay down their weapons and give rulership to pencil pushers. One would imagine this would have made Lorgar ecstatic.

 

Side Note: Imperial Truth is still a truth. When viewed from the perception of an ancient super psyker or rational scientific methodology, the Chaos "gods" are simply sentient gestalt psychic entities, created from the bleedoff of human emotions in a parallel universe that overlaps with ours. Lorgar's only criterion for godhood was power, so he should have been playing choir boy for Eldar and Necrons then too, since they are also immortal and can jump through the cosmos in single bounds.

 

Perturabo. Pathetic. boo hoo, no love. Funny, all he had to do was STEP UP and request some R and R or create a better Public Relations board. Not hard. Not the Emperor's fault. Not an excuse to burn the cosmos and stab ones brothers in the back. I seem to recall Ultramarine garrisons all over the place as well, but they turned it to their advantage. One super human legion of warrior's drudgery is another super human warrior legion of warrior's recruitment drive.

 

Angron- Any complaints over the treatment of fallen comrades flies out the window when the liegelord shows more compassion for the troops than Angron does. He treated the World Eaters as disposable and kept doing that disgusting practice of rage implants despite the Emperor's edict to stop.

 

Curze-CrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy

 

Fulgrim-I actually have some sympathy for this poor idiot. Did not realize what he was getting into until it was too late. Still a pompous peacock, but he did not want to turn.

 

Mortarion-We need to see what happens in the HH, his fluff is a bit unfleshed at the moment.

 

Alpharius-*sigh* I miss the old fluff. Oh yes, the Xenos cabal mind whammies him something fierce, giving him only two options, and he BELIEVE them. Despite an Eldar standing right there amongst their numbers, a race known, even at this point in the fluff, for their duplicity and their scrying of multiple winding and ever branching futures. And the shortbus AND gullible idiot award goes to you Alpharius! One for each "half", another utterly pointless retcon.

[Capt. Taurus]

The award for "most despicable" amongst the traitor primarchs is a hotly contested one, IMO.

At best, all of them have personal gripes with the Emperor, none of them have any reason to betray their liege lord and father and murder their own brothers in battle.

Most of it comes off as simpering excuses.

 

Lorgar's whining excuse is perhaps the most pitiable. His "truth" is the cosmic lie that is Chaos. If you have read The First Heretic or any of the HH books, you will note that the Daemons lie. Alot. First about the Emperor's "ascent to Godhood" to Horus, then about the Eldar's fall to Lorgar amongst other things. Fell because they did not embrace Chaos my arse!

So not only does Lorgar commit acts that the Emperor considers horrendous, the IA describes his oppressive actions against subjegated worlds, forcing them to worship by the most brutal of methods, he does this in the face of the Emperor's repeated denial of his divinity. Monarchia may have been harsh, but that was because slapping Lorgar in the face with "Secular Imperial Truth", "I am not a God", "Go forth and conquere, its kinda why I gave you a Legion of Superwarriors to command" for over a century apparently did not get through to Lorgar.

And, of course, as a proclaimed "seeker of truth" he accepts the words of those who he finds out have been lying to him his entire life, and just gets on his knees in front of Chaos....no questions asked.

Some "philosopher" he turned out to be.

Accepting he did not like war, would not the act of a philosopher and one with true faith simply have been to WAIT and then turn to peaceful actions when the Imperium was cemented. Remember, one of Horus' arguments was that the Emperor would make them lay down their weapons and give rulership to pencil pushers. One would imagine this would have made Lorgar ecstatic.

That is an angle I hadn't thought about yet. Very perceptive. Yes the Daemons lie through their tentacles at every opportunity their are given, yet you cannot expect even a Primarch to simply ignore such powerful entities when they reveal themselves to pass some "intelligence" from the future. We might actually say that this is the Emperor's fault for giving his most important warriors, his sons after all, only the vaguest of information about the powers that dwell in the warp.

The Big E is the ultimate psyker and the Primarchs' gene-father, should he not have been able to detect the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of his sons? For instance the emptiness in Lorgar's heart and his desperate wish to worship for worship's sake.

But in general I agree with you, it should have been clear to them that the warp entities have ulterior motives, which are to the detriment of mankind and themselves.

And you are right as far as Lorgar is concerned, then we arrive again at my conclusion that he is pyschological weakling, frail of mind so to speak, that doesn't really go well with a superhuman physique.

So the irony is that Lorgar yearns for a state in which he may preach and contemplate in peace, instead he helped bring about a period of incessant war. All of that makes him a more tragic than despicable figure.

 

 

Side Note: Imperial Truth is still a truth. When viewed from the perception of an ancient super psyker or rational scientific methodology, the Chaos "gods" are simply sentient gestalt psychic entities, created from the bleedoff of human emotions in a parallel universe that overlaps with ours. Lorgar's only criterion for godhood was power, so he should have been playing choir boy for Eldar and Necrons then too, since they are also immortal and can jump through the cosmos in single bounds.

True but still, the super psyker that is the Emperor, probably the greatest intellect of the material galaxy, ought to have known that his perspective of the warp is quite different from that of an ordinary human or even that of the Primarchs. With the exception of Magnus none of them possessed his psychic powers.

 

 

Perturabo. Pathetic. boo hoo, no love. Funny, all he had to do was STEP UP and request some R and R or create a better Public Relations board. Not hard. Not the Emperor's fault. Not an excuse to burn the cosmos and stab ones brothers in the back. I seem to recall Ultramarine garrisons all over the place as well, but they turned it to their advantage. One super human legion of warrior's drudgery is another super human warrior legion of warrior's recruitment drive.

Perturabo is probably the traitor equivalent of Lion'el Jonson, insofar as he is a socially incompetent dope. He never got along with any of his brothers really, and radiated rejection and bitterness, I'm certain even Curze was better at making friends with his brothers than him.

 

 

Angron- Any complaints over the treatment of fallen comrades flies out the window when the liegelord shows more compassion for the troops than Angron does. He treated the World Eaters as disposable and kept doing that disgusting practice of rage implants despite the Emperor's edict to stop.

Well rebellion was essentially inscripted into his genes. You know what? I say that is the Emperor's fault too. Allow me to elaborate, the Emperor as the ultimate pysker could read his sons' minds or at least sense the essence of their spirit. He should have understood that Agron respects one thing and one thing only, an apt warrior. So to gain Angron's unrelenting loyalty he should have duelled him and hand him his bottom, which he could have done quite easily. Angron would never betray a warrior proven to be stronger than him. So it was bad parenting on the Emperor's part, junior needed his bottom straightened out and he didn't do it.

 

 

Curze-CrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy

I won't dispute that, but a pretty cool guy nonetheless.

 

 

Fulgrim-I actually have some sympathy for this poor idiot. Did not realize what he was getting into until it was too late. Still a pompous peacock, but he did not want to turn.

So!? It's even worse then, he is essentially a loyalist who blundered into treason due to his vanity and gullibility. Pah disgusting

 

 

Mortarion-We need to see what happens in the HH, his fluff is a bit unfleshed at the moment.

I just re-read the IA article on them, it doesn't give away much, only that he chafed at the memory of the Emperor forcing his fealty after he failed to deliver on the wager that he would defeat the Warlord on Barbarus on his own and without the Emperor's help. As I already said he was closest to Horus and didn't much care for the family.

 

 

Alpharius-*sigh* I miss the old fluff. Oh yes, the Xenos cabal mind whammies him something fierce, giving him only two options, and he BELIEVE them. Despite an Eldar standing right there amongst their numbers, a race known, even at this point in the fluff, for their duplicity and their scrying of multiple winding and ever branching futures. And the shortbus AND gullible idiot award goes to you Alpharius! One for each "half", another utterly pointless retcon.

Yeah true...LOL, I actually didn't view it this way, but you're right of course. Just one point though, Alpharius and Omegon believed their actions to be in service of the Emperor and therefor they are not despicable but rather..well stupid for want of a better term.

But at least we may assume that the Cabal's agenda failed after all the Alpha Legion were supposed to weigh in on the taitor's side in order to ensure victory for Horus and we know how well that worked. Horus was supposed to fall to utter madness after defeating the E and start wiping out humanity, which was probably the ultimate goal of the Xenos cabal...didn't happen. So hail Guilliman for showing that fool what it means to be Astartes.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Is'nt Fulgrim actually possessed by a daemon that was trapped in the sword?

 

Can remember something along the lines of it explaining to Horus , that Fulgrim did'nt have the heart to kill Ferrus Manus and that it took over his body and trapped Fulgrim in the depths of his mind, and further exemplified by the excerpt from ADB's forthcoming Aurelian.

 

One thing I've also wondered is why Kor Phareon and Erebus kept the old religions "alive" when Lorgar first lead the unification of Colchis (before the Emperor arrival), were they actually Chaos plants, manipulating Lorgar ever since he landed as a child and therefore ensuring the "preordained/annointed" nature of Lorgar character?

[Guest mc wazzahamma]

Ubermensch Commander, your responses are definitely amusing! I genuinely laughed out loudly over the idea of Lorgar becoming ecstatic at the idea of the Crusade being handed over to pen pushers.

 

I would say that the rest is argued a tad broadly for me when compared to what is actually in TFH. Lorgar's "truth" is more in relation to the actual nature of the universe and the concept of the divinity than the mundane idea of simply being lied to. Chaos lies to his astartes about events and perspectives, yes. He also accepts that Kor Phaeron lied to him throughout most of the crusade. I'll wager that if the Emperor simply lied to him about things like his weight and number of past sexual partners that Lorgar could get over that. The lie he can not accept is his father' denial of "godhood" and the existence of "gods" in the universe, because it centers around his need for faith and philosophy. A need that seems to have been purpose built into him by the Emperor himself.

 

And to be fair to Lorgar on the bitchslap from dad on Monarchia...why did the Emperor wait so long to hit and then hit so hard? Lorgar notes this himself, and he has a point...it feels somewhat like entrapment. Lorgar never made a secret of his beliefs or practises (in the way Magnus did) but the Emperor allowed it without censure for over a century. You could almost forgive Lorgar for thinking his views were at least tolerated or forgiven. Or that he was being tested and tasked to bring the Word to the Imperium.

 

As for never questioning chaos...not true. Lorgar has doubts and fears all the way up to his own trip into the Eye (where he is convinced by reasons unknown to the reader) and even then, his resolve is still not ironclad by the time of Istvaan III. He finally grows an independent pair and defies Kor and Erebus. Too little, too late, but there you have it.

 

The side note on Imperial Truth only truly holds if the Emperor taught it in the way you describe, which he didn't. His official version was that the supernatural and sorcery did not exist (though this stance is muddied by the existence and practises of his 15th Legion) and superstition held no potency. The argument of the Imperial truth implied that there were no great beings (sentient gestalt psychic entities or otherwise) that could act like Gods, only untamed and wild power in the warp with malicious xenos sprinkled throughout. The proof of the secular truth exists in our real world, not theirs. If I pray to grandfather Nurgle, I'm probably going to get less results than Lorgar would.

 

Since we've only been given three other detailed accounts of "falls", I'll just comment on a couple of those with Fulgrim and Alpharius.

 

Alpharius being given two options in the updated fiction seems no more a problem to me than the two options available in the older fiction: Chaos or Imperial. Whether he and Omegon chose either option given by the Cabal in the long run is intentionally a mystery left up to the reader to decide for himself.

 

Fulgrim for me, is so far the worst of the lot. The Primarch introduced in the book Fulgrim was already a corrupt and arrogant fop, as far as I was concerned, with hardly any redeeming or admirable qualities beyond singular skill. I honestly couldn't tell much of a difference between loyal Fulgrim and fallen Fulgrim in character, except that he was perhaps more extreme and used poo instead of paint. Fuglrim didn't so much fall as step sideways. Which is a pity, because he was one of my favoruite primarchs before reading the book.

[Xo'baloc the Thrice Cursed]

Lorgar is the most despicable to me because he is the weakest mentally.

 

well, the only reason lorgar could be seen as such is due to a problem that he and the Lion both have that causes future difficulties. Unlike most other primarchs, their pre-discovery fathers stay by their side, lorgar cant be seen as gullible if whats he 's been told comes from someone he fully trusts and respects (kor phaeron). He also had lost his main focus in his life in a devastating way on Monarchia.

 

ME

I agree. After Monarchia, Lorgar was forced to look at the things he had done on Clochis in the name of a God who he very harshly found out wasn't a God. He felt guilt for fighting a devastating holy war on Clochis against the Old Faith( Chaos worship). He felt that the sacrifice made to unify Clochis under his faith was for naught.

[Ethrion]

QUOTE (Ubermensch Commander @ Jul 3 2011, 06:50 PM) *

Fulgrim-I actually have some sympathy for this poor idiot. Did not realize what he was getting into until it was too late. Still a pompous peacock, but he did not want to turn.

 

So!? It's even worse then, he is essentially a loyalist who blundered into treason due to his vanity and gullibility. Pah disgusting

 

Fulgrim would have been 100% loyal to the Emperor had he not been subjected to the mind altering effects of the Laer Temple and the mind-clounding effects of the sword found there. The daemon possessed sword had subtly drawn a veil over Fulgrim's eyes. Only upon temporarily withdrawing from Fulgrim after he had killed Ferrus Manus could he see what he had done. In this moment of clarity Fulgrim breaks down and is tricked by the daemon allowing it full possession. Which is the end of Fulgrim once and for all.

 

It seems that despite their flaws a few of the primarchs would have still been loyal to the Emperor - Fulgrim, Horus and Magnus all needed the influence/possession of daemons to turn them. Then 'followers' like Angron, Perturabo and Mortarion who for their own petty reasons felt sidelined or not used to the best of their ability heard what they wanted from Horus.

 

But remember that all of the traitor primarchs turned because of direct (themselves possessed) or indirect (their most trusted lieutenants) influence of daemons.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I feel I must speak in defence of the primarchs (this may be fanboyish, just a fair warning).

 

Fulgrim was told what he wanted to hear, and his own pride prevented him from even thinking of the concept someone might be attempting to use him for their own ends. I believe Fulgrim knew of Chaos, Horus did, though he may not have realised what exactly Chaos was capable of. That was what truly led his to failure, his pride.

 

Lorgar wasn't looking for something to worship - his quote before the book and his explanation to the Emperor proves that. He grew up surrounded by faith, so naturally his first thought of the Emperor was as a god.

 

I think this is where the Chaos Gods may have had to step in. Instead of dismissing the thought - it was denied by his own father and the would-be god himself! - the Chaos Gods give him the thought "Only the true divine deny their own divinty" (which I really despise, because that's a very, very, very dumb thought process. I have no idea why or how the Chaos Gods were able to convince the scholar primarch such utter Ballistic Skill).

 

Angron had his mind messed with.

 

Perturabo was the outcast primarch, in a way more so than the others who were outsiders, because he was normal. Everybody dismissed Angron's rage and Lorgar's deluded speeches, but Perturabo, he could relate to the other primarchs - kinda. He was great at seigecraft, just like Dorn, and he was no-nonsense primarch, like Guillemann. What he lacked in relation to the primarchs was a sense of honor, and thus, almost all the other primarchs rejected him.

 

He became bitter for that rejection. The other primarchs weren't mature enough to accept him for his utter dedication and skill to his work, and so he lost that dedication.

 

Mortarion... was retarded. He was too full of himself. I'm sorry, I've only seen his character through A Thousand Sons and I've always despised Nurgle, so Mortarion is currently full of failure to me. Hopefully, that will be changed when he gets his HH book; I don't like hating fluff.

 

Curze did what he believed best to do. Whether or not that was right, I'm not to judge, but Curze always did what he believed to be right. For that, I respect him.

 

Magnus's story explained itself. Like Curze, he always did what he believed to be right.

[Azarias]

I can't help but get annoyed when I read these reductionist attempts at pithy descriptions of the traitor primarchs. One of the neat things about the entire Horus Heresy series is that it brings the reader into the morally complex Warhammer Universe. I, and I'm certain others as well, get bored by rote dualistic depictions of good vs. evil prevalent in popular culture (For example, Voldemort vs. Harry Potter), and so to have this kind of depth, and an emphasis on the motivations behind every character - justifiable or not - all adds a wonderful complexity to the entire body of fiction.

 

Take Lorgar's case: having been raised in a society that placed such an emphasis on an absolute and divine truth, how could he not cling to it? How many of us here can claim that they've taken such a radical step back from our own culture's values (Example, not a locus for discussion: who here's against democracy? Or free speech?). And then, after having gone through a period of strife over the nature of this truth, to have all the sacrifices made in its name made suddenly, heroically, wonderfully, and absolutely valid by the appearance of the Emperor, how can Lorgar not fall into a pit of despair when his own god and father so dramatically abandons him? Remember, Lorgar's failing was of such a gross character, in the eyes of the Imperium, that he was not surprised to learn that being ostracized in the same manner as those missing two legions was at one point considered a plausible punishment? And then to have, as the only light of salvation from the depths of his despair, the slight hope that there really is some sublime truth that underlies the universe - how is this infantile, or foolish, or pathetic? Ontological self-justification is hardly unforgivable or pathetic, especially when your entire life has been built around this one aspect: faith. If the crux of your entire sense of self is built upon one detail (as it was for all the Primarchs), how is this effort at preservation pathetic?

 

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. It's almost a waste of time to read the Horus Heresy series as a battle of good vs. evil, especially since the Imperium is not some paragon of nobility and virtue, or the traitors one-dimension constructs of hollywood evil.

[Gree]

Perturabo. Pathetic. boo hoo, no love. Funny, all he had to do was STEP UP and request some R and R or create a better Public Relations board. Not hard. Not the Emperor's fault. Not an excuse to burn the cosmos and stab ones brothers in the back. I seem to recall Ultramarine garrisons all over the place as well, but they turned it to their advantage. One super human legion of warrior's drudgery is another super human warrior legion of warrior's recruitment drive.

 

Not quite the same thing. The exact fluff accounts are rather vague on what stayed behind. The 5th edition Marine dex references Guilliman setting up a self-supporting defense system and then leaving behind advisers to ensure proper integration into the Imperium. Whether those advisers are Astartes or mortals is not addressed clearly.

 

Either way, the way the Marine Codex puts it forth makes it sound more like a temporary thing rather than the permanent garrisons that the Iron Warriors were doing.

[Capt. Taurus]

I feel I must speak in defence of the primarchs (this may be fanboyish, just a fair warning).

 

My philosophy is that as long you're standing by your fanboyism you can say whatever you want. warning heeded :P

 

 

Angron had his mind messed with.

Yes ok, but that still didn't render him beyond control, the E could easily have humbled him and thereby guaranteed his loyalty.

 

 

Mortarion... was retarded. He was too full of himself. I'm sorry, I've only seen his character through A Thousand Sons and I've always despised Nurgle, so Mortarion is currently full of failure to me. Hopefully, that will be changed when he gets his HH book; I don't like hating fluff.

Yeah I agree, his appearance in A Thousand Sons really made him look like a hypocritical arse.

 

 

Curze did what he believed best to do. Whether or not that was right, I'm not to judge, but Curze always did what he believed to be right. For that, I respect him.

 

Magnus's story explained itself. Like Curze, he always did what he believed to be right.

 

I respect Magnus, he made a mistake while trying to vindicate himself, but Curze simply refused to cooperate. But the friction between him and Dorn was of Fulgrim's devising too, he essentially betrayed Curze and manipulated Dorn to confront him. Magnus' Love for the Emperor was propbably the strongest amongst his brothers, he couldn't accept the censure exerted by the Emperor simply to appease Russ and Mortarion and their likes.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm not a fan of what most folks have been saying about A&O. The thing everyone seems to forget about them is the simple fact that we don't know what their true motives or reasons for turning were. Did they stay loyal? Did they turn? Did they really believe the Cabal? Did they kill Namatjira's Expedition as the first blow in their treason, or to tie up loose ends in regards to what had happened at 42 Hydra Tertius? We, the readers, don't know because all of that goes on "behind closed doors," and there is still, after all, more story to tell.

[Olis]

EDIT: Addendum>> I forgot to mention, that the Emperor is a shapeshifter too...godlike enough for ya?...still Lorgar the most despicable??

 

I know this is a little off-topic but I think you might have got this wrong here - iirc the Emperor is able to alter people's perception of him, thus allowing him to appear bigger than his actual size. But if there's something I've missed somewhere saying he can change his actual shape (rather than his apparent size), I'd like hear where this information is... :cuss

[Iron Father Ferrum]

EDIT: Addendum>> I forgot to mention, that the Emperor is a shapeshifter too...godlike enough for ya?...still Lorgar the most despicable??

 

I know this is a little off-topic but I think you might have got this wrong here - iirc the Emperor is able to alter people's perception of him, thus allowing him to appear bigger than his actual size. But if there's something I've missed somewhere saying he can change his actual shape (rather than his apparent size), I'd like hear where this information is... :tu:

 

I think you got this backwards. He doesn't try to appear bigger than his actual size. If you read The Last Church from Tales of Heresy, you'll notice that the priest hears the chair the Emperor sits in creak from the weight. Some of that might be armor, but I'd like to think that the superhuman stature of the Primarchs is a genetic carry-over from the truly larger-than-life Big E.

[Olis]

If I have fudged the size thing then fair cop, but for now I'm going to reread The Last Church before I retract the example. However, my point still stands - I'm relatively sure ol' Empy isn't a shapeshifter.

[Candleshoes]

Alpharius-*sigh* I miss the old fluff. Oh yes, the Xenos cabal mind whammies him something fierce, giving him only two options, and he BELIEVE them. Despite an Eldar standing right there amongst their numbers, a race known, even at this point in the fluff, for their duplicity and their scrying of multiple winding and ever branching futures. And the shortbus AND gullible idiot award goes to you Alpharius! One for each "half", another utterly pointless retcon.

 

It is never specified that Alpharius believed them. Maybe that award you're pinning on them belongs on someone else.

[Tutteman]

Horus - A guy organised to have you mortally wounded...then pretended to be someone else so you might trust him. One of your own BROTHERS tells you he's a traitor(and a sorcery practiser)...and you still listen to this guy? Sure I mean you can really trust him can't you...

Seriously, you got that one right.

 

 

Angron - So you were just angry and bloodthirsty

Well that didn't necessitate turning from the Emperor, I guess it is the Emperor's fault for not having put Angron into the war theatres where he could live out his nature.

 

 

Lorgar - Really? That desperate?

Don't belittle that, after all the Emperor could have been a bit more compromising instead of unleashing Guilliman on Lorgar's pride.

 

 

Magnus - Naive idiot, more interested in justifying himself.

That is a bit harsh isn't it, after all Magnus was loyal to the core and simply made a mistake.

 

 

Fulgrim - Would you do anything your sword told you to? What if it told you to jump off a cliff eh? :)

LOL..., if only it had

 

 

Perturabo - You threw a tantrum, because you were being used for what you're good at?

Cruze - Psychotic Batman in power armour...More Pity than anything

Perty und Curze those are the actual maniacs, they have no excuse like >> "someone jammed a rage inducing gadget into my cranium"

 

 

Mortarion - Why did you even turn?

Exactly!!

 

 

Alpharius - Xenos lied?..its not a hard concept?

 

It's a sorry list. I mean several of them its just a bit pathetic. For example its very hard to despise Cruze, he's more an object of pity. And while contempt comes easy upon Magnus, but again, not despicable. I suppose Fulgrim is despicable. Just so proud to the point of arrogance, and then some.

 

:lol: I was actually becoming fond of Curze the very moment I started hating him, I thought damn what a loss. I cannot despise Magnus, he is the most tragic figure, having fallen victim to his ambitions of vindication and desire to warn Daddy. It all comes down to Fulgrim.

 

 

 

How could you hate Curze? He did what the emperor told him to do, then everyone got steamed at him for doing it!

 

I actually like him and I hate the guys I like for having turned traitor with a special passion. But he attacked Corax and immediately tried to kill him, not very brotherly is it.

 

To be honest some of the Traitor Primarchs I feel very sorry for, but that doesn't excuse them. Magnus is a case in point, because while he was loyal to the Emperor to a point, I think he was more interested in proving himself to be right. I mean if he was truly loyal he would of stopped when told. And even then, in False Gods when he discussed the power of the spell they're going to use to break through the wards on the Palace he outright says that he's doing it this way in an attempt to prove the worth of his powers. It's a tad naive to think the Emperor would believe him when he says "Daddy, Horus is turning on you and is a traitor, do something" via forbidden methods. Who to believe? The character of your closest son, or the son who is flouting your decrees (and causing huge damage in the process) to try and tell you of this? I just think that Magnus was more loyal to himself(and his wounded pride) than the Emperor.

 

I also really quite like Curze. Not in a good way (obviously, he's a brooding, mentally unhinged and totally morally deficient socio-path) but I still like him. And the Night Lords. Something in them/him appeals to me...so that's probably a bad thing and I better hand myself in before I go vigilante ;)

 

With Lorgar, well I have to say I detested the opening of The First Heretic. Mainly because it just seemed like the Emperor was going about it in such a stupid and idiotic manner and seemed so out of character for both him and Gulliman. I mean one could almost justify the short sharp shock treatment to get the message through, but did they really need to wipe out a world to do it? I mean surely they could think of a better way to do it without causing such resentment as that surely would. If that's the way he as treated I'd almost expect him to turn traitor.

 

Someone said they didn't particularly like the way we seem to be sticking short snappy dismissive labels on the Traitors. And I agree when I take the conversation seriously, but I guess I was more looking to summarise quickly and really its more railing against some weak fluff writing. The thing I love about the 40k universe is how complex it is and how there is no clear cut good guys. So I'll be more in depth from here on in.

 

Horus is a particularly interesting example (leaving aside my aforementioned "Really? You trust this guy?" It's how he apparently recognised that one day the Imperium would be in a time when "war is over" and wants his men educated so that when this time comes they still have a place. But then one of his chief complaints as he lies wounded is how the Imperium is coming to a time when it no longer needs him and his Legions and he'll have no wars to fight. How all that he conquered is being handed over to civilians. Its ironic that he doesn't seem to stop and consider what it was he was fighting for, surely he was fighting for this time when warriors would not constantly be needed?

[Capt. Taurus]

To be honest some of the Traitor Primarchs I feel very sorry for, but that doesn't excuse them. Magnus is a case in point, because while he was loyal to the Emperor to a point, I think he was more interested in proving himself to be right. I mean if he was truly loyal he would of stopped when told. And even then, in False Gods when he discussed the power of the spell they're going to use to break through the wards on the Palace he outright says that he's doing it this way in an attempt to prove the worth of his powers. It's a tad naive to think the Emperor would believe him when he says "Daddy, Horus is turning on you and is a traitor, do something" via forbidden methods. Who to believe? The character of your closest son, or the son who is flouting your decrees (and causing huge damage in the process) to try and tell you of this? I just think that Magnus was more loyal to himself(and his wounded pride) than the Emperor.

Point taken but we should factor in that the Emperor wasn't really against Magnus and the Legions employing Psykers and their powers, he merely tried to buy time for his ongoing GoldenThrone+EldarWebway-Project. He thought it better to appease the likes of Russ and Mortarion than to engage in long deliberations about the goods and ills of pysker-power. So he basically thought to himself "Magnus is a big boy, he can take it, better satisfy Morty and Russ and let them be content and productive conquerers than to enrage two of my most effective War hounds". Which turned out to be a bad decision....Mortarion turned traitor anyway and Russ is a hypocrite of the worst kind...."living energies of Fenris"...my behind.

 

 

 

I also really quite like Curze. Not in a good way (obviously, he's a brooding, mentally unhinged and totally morally deficient socio-path) but I still like him. And the Night Lords. Something in them/him appeals to me...so that's probably a bad thing and I better hand myself in before I go vigilante ;)

Well be swift then :D

 

 

 

With Lorgar, well I have to say I detested the opening of The First Heretic. Mainly because it just seemed like the Emperor was going about it in such a stupid and idiotic manner and seemed so out of character for both him and Gulliman. I mean one could almost justify the short sharp shock treatment to get the message through, but did they really need to wipe out a world to do it? I mean surely they could think of a better way to do it without causing such resentment as that surely would. If that's the way he as treated I'd almost expect him to turn traitor.

Well it was painful to "watch" but the literary excellence and the beyond epic portrayal of my favourite Primarch(Guilliman) really made up for it. I mean we all know what happens with Lorgar and his loyalties, but as one is reading the first chapters of TFH, one cannot help but to almost shout at the book..."No no don't do that"

 

 

 

 

Horus is a particularly interesting example (leaving aside my aforementioned "Really? You trust this guy?" It's how he apparently recognised that one day the Imperium would be in a time when "war is over" and wants his men educated so that when this time comes they still have a place. But then one of his chief complaints as he lies wounded is how the Imperium is coming to a time when it no longer needs him and his Legions and he'll have no wars to fight. How all that he conquered is being handed over to civilians. Its ironic that he doesn't seem to stop and consider what it was he was fighting for, surely he was fighting for this time when warriors would not constantly be needed?

One thing that is often overlooked when talking about Horus, is the burden of his "perfection", he is able to do everything the Emperor commands him to do, but he feels overtasked and abandoned. His greatest fear is to be seen as a failure and he entertains a splinter of hate for his Father for having exposed him to the mere possibility of such a loss of face. This made it somewhat easier to turn Horus than many others. Guilliman or Dorn for instance never had to stand in comparison to the Emperor and be judged by his standards, Horus on the other hand had to do exactly that. The entire "civilians, bureaucrats and pen-pushers are taking over" grievances are just the grain that tips the sacle so to speak

 

my 2 cents

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Addendum>> I forgot to mention, that the Emperor is a shapeshifter too...godlike enough for ya?...still Lorgar the most despicable??

 

I know this is a little off-topic but I think you might have got this wrong here - iirc the Emperor is able to alter people's perception of him, thus allowing him to appear bigger than his actual size. But if there's something I've missed somewhere saying he can change his actual shape (rather than his apparent size), I'd like hear where this information is... ;)

This is of course correct and I understand that the E doesn't actually shift his shape like a Callidus but that he manipulates the perception of others, so a bad choice of words on my part. But if we actually look at what i was trying to convey, I feel my positon is rather reinforced. The Emperor can manipulate the minds and perceptions of others and appear before their eyes as what he wants to appear. That sounds very Godish to me, does it not.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I feel I must speak in defence of the primarchs (this may be fanboyish, just a fair warning).

 

My philosophy is that as long you're standing by your fanboyism you can say whatever you want. warning heeded ;)

 

I'd rather not be a fanboy at all, TBH :D It affects my judgement.

 

Angron had his mind messed with.

Yes ok, but that still didn't render him beyond control, the E could easily have humbled him and thereby guaranteed his loyalty.

 

While I'm not sure if that was possible, it was most definitely possible for the Emperor to repair the brain damage. After all, he designed Angron's mind, so what's the problem? Nobody is accusing the Emperor though (besides you just now), so I didn't defend him ;)

 

Mortarion... was retarded. He was too full of himself. I'm sorry, I've only seen his character through A Thousand Sons and I've always despised Nurgle, so Mortarion is currently full of failure to me. Hopefully, that will be changed when he gets his HH book; I don't like hating fluff.

Yeah I agree, his appearance in A Thousand Sons really made him look like a hypocritical arse.

 

If I may say so... it would have been amusing for Magnus to comment on Mortarion's account of the Bloodcrusher's charge and say "Hey, if you knew what we do about the Warp, you could have destroyed them in thirty seconds! Your prescious defensive reputation would have remained intact! Might want to consider that before you ban us from using our powers. TTYL!"

 

Curze did what he believed best to do. Whether or not that was right, I'm not to judge, but Curze always did what he believed to be right. For that, I respect him.

 

Magnus's story explained itself. Like Curze, he always did what he believed to be right.

 

I respect Magnus, he made a mistake while trying to vindicate himself, but Curze simply refused to cooperate. But the friction between him and Dorn was of Fulgrim's devising too, he essentially betrayed Curze and manipulated Dorn to confront him. Magnus' Love for the Emperor was propbably the strongest amongst his brothers, he couldn't accept the censure exerted by the Emperor simply to appease Russ and Mortarion and their likes.

I didn't say I agreed with what he did - his very modus operandi is almost repulsive to me - but he believed he was doing what was right.

 

I haven't read on the whole issues between him, Dorn and Fulgrim, I'm assuming that's either in Age of Darkness or the third book in the HH series?

[Capt. Taurus]

I feel I must speak in defence of the primarchs (this may be fanboyish, just a fair warning).

 

My philosophy is that as long you're standing by your fanboyism you can say whatever you want. warning heeded ;)

 

I'd rather not be a fanboy at all, TBH :D It affects my judgement.

Oh, that ship sails the moment you start seriously engaging in the hobby of 40k, so for the two of us the ship sailed a long time ago. Just embrace it ;)

 

 

 

Curze did what he believed best to do. Whether or not that was right, I'm not to judge, but Curze always did what he believed to be right. For that, I respect him.

 

Magnus's story explained itself. Like Curze, he always did what he believed to be right.

 

I respect Magnus, he made a mistake while trying to vindicate himself, but Curze simply refused to cooperate. But the friction between him and Dorn was of Fulgrim's devising too, he essentially betrayed Curze and manipulated Dorn to confront him. Magnus' Love for the Emperor was propbably the strongest amongst his brothers, he couldn't accept the censure exerted by the Emperor simply to appease Russ and Mortarion and their likes.

I didn't say I agreed with what he did - his very modus operandi is almost repulsive to me - but he believed he was doing what was right.

 

I haven't read on the whole issues between him, Dorn and Fulgrim, I'm assuming that's either in Age of Darkness or the third book in the HH series?

 

No that part of the background is found in IA articles+general fluff and of course BL's audiobook "the dark king and the lightning tower" don't worry no spoilers will be given.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I respect Magnus, he made a mistake while trying to vindicate himself, but Curze simply refused to cooperate. But the friction between him and Dorn was of Fulgrim's devising too, he essentially betrayed Curze and manipulated Dorn to confront him. Magnus' Love for the Emperor was propbably the strongest amongst his brothers, he couldn't accept the censure exerted by the Emperor simply to appease Russ and Mortarion and their likes.

I didn't say I agreed with what he did - his very modus operandi is almost repulsive to me - but he believed he was doing what was right.

 

I haven't read on the whole issues between him, Dorn and Fulgrim, I'm assuming that's either in Age of Darkness or the third book in the HH series?

 

No that part of the background is found in IA articles+general fluff and of course BL's audiobook "the dark king and the lightning tower" don't worry no spoilers will be given.

That's now on my to-read (listen?) list :)

[Capt. Taurus]

I respect Magnus, he made a mistake while trying to vindicate himself, but Curze simply refused to cooperate. But the friction between him and Dorn was of Fulgrim's devising too, he essentially betrayed Curze and manipulated Dorn to confront him. Magnus' Love for the Emperor was propbably the strongest amongst his brothers, he couldn't accept the censure exerted by the Emperor simply to appease Russ and Mortarion and their likes.

I didn't say I agreed with what he did - his very modus operandi is almost repulsive to me - but he believed he was doing what was right.

 

I haven't read on the whole issues between him, Dorn and Fulgrim, I'm assuming that's either in Age of Darkness or the third book in the HH series?

 

No that part of the background is found in IA articles+general fluff and of course BL's audiobook "the dark king and the lightning tower" don't worry no spoilers will be given.

That's now on my to-read (listen?) list :)

 

I certainly recommend it. But the best audiobook I've heard so far was Raven's Flight. I have them all up to Garro Oath of Moment and so far Raven's Flight beats them all. Some people have voiced scepticism about HH audiobooks but I was pleasantly surprised. You get a fair share of background on some things that were not absolutely clear before. Raven's Flight is by the way amongst the reasons I named Corax the most heroic and impressive loyalist Primarch in my intitial post. When you've heard Raven's Flight and then re-read the last chapters of TFH, you won't be clear on which traitor is most despicable but you'll know with utter certainty which loyalist is the most admirable...*cough* Corax *cough*