The First Heretic, those in the know gather!

[The Emperor's Champion]

Fulgrim was always loyal, after all the Emperors Children were the only legion allowed to bear the aquila. His fate I always find the most tragic of all. He killed his closest brother and watched his legion descend into everything he was against. I always thought if Guilliman had fought the Laer, he too would lost himself in Slaneesh!

Guilliman would've been probably been fine. Fulgrim was obsessed with nuance and perfection in all his endeavors. These things lend themselves easily to the God of Excess' whispers. Slaneesh's promises to push them above and beyond what they'd normally be capable of is what appealed to The Emperor's Children.

Guilliman's focus is centered primarily on not wasting anything. He's basically driven by the exact opposite of what drove Fulgrim.

They seem similar because Guilliman's efficiency makes sure he has exactly what he needs to accomplish everything he puts his mind to as fast as possible with minimum expenditure of lives, supplies, and time, while Fulgrim makes sure that his forces have the supplies, troops, skills, and planning to absolutely overwhelm any opponent in battles where they're simply outmatched.

The end result is that both Primarchs conquered rapidly without wasting troops or supplies. Guilliman would've probably gotten along with him just fine because he was obviously very good at what he did and he did it quickly and kept up the pace. Guilliman didn't get along with Alpharius because he basically did the opposite of Fulgrim. Alpharius would sit around forever planning out every little detail and coming up with a hundred backup plans, and slowly whittle down his opponents in battles that dismantled their forces piece by piece. It took too much time and wasted too many supplies. Gulliman was no fan of excess.

 

 

Lorgar - Really? That desperate?

Don't belittle that, after all the Emperor could have been a bit more compromising instead of unleashing Guilliman on Lorgar's pride.

That really was an odd bit of story, the Emperor sending Guilliman to confront Lorgar about it. Guilliman was making the fastest progress out of all the Primarch in the Crusade, and the Emperor was momentarily removing him from his duties just to make a point to Lorgar? Not to mention that Guilliman had allways been careful to minimize colateral damage on the worlds he conquered, so having to wipe out a few cities was not exactly an easy asignment for him either. It really does not make much sense, other than that Lorgar had to have some reason to hate Guilliman.

(At least A D-B could have given us some taste of the Emperor "championing" the Ultramarines, which the Index Astartes Word Bearers had described as the original reason for Lorgar's animosity.)

I don't find it odd at all. The Emperor's Great Crusade was to unite humanity across the galaxy and to crush superstition and religion in favor of scientific enlightenment. Lorgar failed MISERABLY to accomplish The Emperor's goals. He was wasting time having his Legion milling about on worlds after conquering them and building monuments and such. Worse still, he was preaching to the conquered populations that The Emperor was a god, and utterly failing to replace religious superstition with science.

Guilliman, on the other hand, was summoned as the perfect example of succeeding in every way that Lorgar failed. Guilliman claimed more worlds than any Primarch, claimed them faster, claimed them with less casualties or expenditure of resources, instilled actual voluntary loyalty to the Imperium in the populations he conquered, set up super efficient planetary infrastructures that left planets in peace and able to fend for themselves without trouble, and he spread the Imperial Truth and crushed superstition wherever he went.

To send Guilliman to confront Lorgar was meant as a glaring contrast to all the ways in which Lorgar had failed. To Lorgar, Guilliman became a symbol of all of the reasons the father he worshiped didn't approve of him, and so he hated Guilliman.

Having Guilliman annihilate Lorgar's crown jewel city certainly wasn't easy for Guilliman, but it was a symbol of The Emperor's disapproval crushing Lorgar's failure, and a symbol of how Guilliman carried out his orders dutifully, despite the countless lives he'd much rather have spared.

 

 

Lorgar - A pathetic failure of a Primarch. Too weak willed to stand against Kor Phaeron and Erebus, too blind to see Chaos for what it really was, ironically had too little faith in The Emperor and his word - the Imperial Truth, wasteful, temperamental, needed to latch on to some manner of god just to feel loved and then didn't even have the conviction to stick with it when his "god" judged him.

 

Jonson - No matter how much some new short story tries to prove he was loyal, it really does nothing to change that there's far more evidence that he's a traitor out for little more than his own benefit. Going against The Emperor's will, using completely unnecessary brutality, seeing his brothers as competition for claiming his father's throne, going to war with the half of his Legion that included those most loyal to The Emperor, etc etc etc/

 

Fulgrim - Tragic. He was proud, but he constantly strove to live up to his pride. He held himself to extremely high standards and did everything in his power to meet them. He appreciated beauty, art, subtlety, nuance, civilization, skill... That he acquired a Daemon Blade and it whispered to him and opened him up to possession, and that that daemon forced him to kill and mortally wound two of his brothers and turn against his father.....tragic. Such is the insidious nature of Chaos.

 

Magnus - Tragic. He didn't listen to The Emperor's order to cease use of his Legion's powers, but he was nonetheless loyal and exposed his disobedience in his attempt to warn The Emperor of Horus' betrayal. It's unfortunate that he unknowingly broke the Golden Throne in doing so and had his vital warning ignored and turned against him. He was willing to face punishment in order to save his father, and he was branded a traitor and had the Space Wolves set upon him as a result, thereby forcing him to accept Tzeentch's help as his only way to survive and save his Thousand Sons.

 

Cruze - Not necessarily crazy, just uncompromising. Night Haunter seems to have been the embodiment of "Exitus Acta Probat" - "The end justifies the means". He wanted peace for Nostramo, so he murdered every criminal that threatened that peace. And while the Night Haunter may have ruled in fear, he did actually turn Nostramo into a decent place to live, while he was actually around to rule it - No crime, people willing to work out their problems peacefully, everyone had what they needed, etc. When The Emperor ordered him to conquer the galaxy for him...he did. He tore those worlds that opposed The Imperium apart with terror and merciless brutality. He conquered world after world using the methods he knew best, but finally The Emperor and some of his brother Primarchs took notice and began to question his ways, eventually leading to the Night Haunter's arrest, escape, and him turning his Legion rogue. Finally, the Night Lords found themselves ordered to fight against other traitors and instead joined them, thereby forever sealing their fate as enemies of the Imperium and ensuring that Cruze's prophetic visions of being killed by The Emperor would inevitably come true. Cruze faced his fate as proof that his father would have him killed for fulfilling his orders.

 

Mortarion - He was a weird sort of antisocial guy. He grew up fighting for the people of his world but seems to have ended up very detached from most everyone around him, with the exceptions of Fulgrim and Horus. So when his brothers turned against The Emperor it seems that Mortarion's loyalty actually belonged to them. Guilliman and Corax had both aired their concerns over Mortarion's true loyalties before the Heresy even got started. It seems Mortarion wasn't so much a traitor as just never really a loyalist in the first place. He didn't need a whole lot of motivation to go against the Imperium.

 

Alpharius and Omegon - Crafty. These two were so convoluted in their motivations that they're almost unassailable on those grounds alone. The fact that they apparently chose to fight for The Emperor in the reeeeeeaaaaally long view of things is pretty impressive. I have a hard time faulting these guys for being absolutely MADE OF backup plans. Granted, there were plenty of more effective ways to go about stuff, but these guys are the masters of Xanatos Gambits, and Xanatos Speed Chess. How do you ever really beat them?

 

Perturabo - Paranoid, jealous, irate, vengeful, spiteful....All manner of terrible personality for a commander or genetic template. Good at sieges tho. Really though, just completely unfit in temperament for a Primarch.

 

Angron - Insane, pissed off, huge, good at destroying and slaughtering everything in his path. Not exactly great as a commander for normal troops, but for a Space Marine Legion that isn't a far cry from being Power Armored Orks, he kinda works. After all, they follow the biggest/strongest/meanest one around, and that's definitely Angron.

 

Horus - .....Tragic. Betrayed by the Word Bearers at the brink of death. His Legion was tricked into using Chaos to save his life, and that turned a pretty damn good Primarch into a traitor.

[Legatus]

They seem similar because Guilliman's efficiency makes sure he has exactly what he needs to accomplish everything he puts his mind to as fast as possible with minimum expenditure of lives, supplies, and time, while Fulgrim makes sure that his forces have the supplies, troops, skills, and planning to absolutely overwhelm any opponent in battles where they're simply outmatched.

The end result is that both Primarchs conquered rapidly without wasting troops or supplies. Guilliman would've probably gotten along with him just fine because he was obviously very good at what he did and he did it quickly and kept up the pace.

I allways felt that Fulgrim and Guilliman probably got along well, since they both were very performance oriented. And also because that would make Guilliman's demise a bit more dramatic.

 

 

I don't find it odd at all. The Emperor's Great Crusade was to unite humanity across the galaxy and to crush superstition and religion in favor of scientific enlightenment. Lorgar failed MISERABLY to accomplish The Emperor's goals. He was wasting time having his Legion milling about on worlds after conquering them and building monuments and such. Worse still, he was preaching to the conquered populations that The Emperor was a god, and utterly failing to replace religious superstition with science.

Guilliman, on the other hand, was summoned as the perfect example of succeeding in every way that Lorgar failed. Guilliman claimed more worlds than any Primarch, claimed them faster, claimed them with less casualties or expenditure of resources, instilled actual voluntary loyalty to the Imperium in the populations he conquered, set up super efficient planetary infrastructures that left planets in peace and able to fend for themselves without trouble, and he spread the Imperial Truth and crushed superstition wherever he went.

To send Guilliman to confront Lorgar was meant as a glaring contrast to all the ways in which Lorgar had failed. To Lorgar, Guilliman became a symbol of all of the reasons the father he worshiped didn't approve of him, and so he hated Guilliman.

Having Guilliman annihilate Lorgar's crown jewel city certainly wasn't easy for Guilliman, but it was a symbol of The Emperor's disapproval crushing Lorgar's failure, and a symbol of how Guilliman carried out his orders dutifully, despite the countless lives he'd much rather have spared.

I don't find the need to make such a point a satisfying explanation for temporarly removing the most capable (meant in terms of progress made) Primarch from doing what he was obviously very successful at, and then having him destroy cities which was very much against his nature. I would see that as a bit of a too excessive reaction, when the Emperor could simply have pointed out how other Primarchs (like Guilliman) were going about things just like the Emperor wanted. Instead, he takes Guilliman away from his Legion for probably a few weeks or even months to have him bluntly hammer the point home by making him wastfully destroy some cities.

 

 

Jonson - No matter how much some new short story tries to prove he was loyal, it really does nothing to change that there's far more evidence that he's a traitor out for little more than his own benefit.

I submit that not only is there not "more" evidence that Jonson was a traitor, but that there is no evidence that he was. Quite the opposite, the background has never really been ambiguous about the fact that he wasn't. Gav was just having a little fun in "Angels of Darkness", and way too many people bought into it. You can accuse Jonson of not really being good with people, and maybe even from being far too suspicious of others, but not of being a traitor.

[Iron Lord]

Mortarion - He was a weird sort of antisocial guy. He grew up fighting for the people of his world but seems to have ended up very detached from most everyone around him, with the exceptions of Fulgrim and Horus. So when his brothers turned against The Emperor it seems that Mortarion's loyalty actually belonged to them. Guilliman and Corax had both aired their concerns over Mortarion's true loyalties before the Heresy even got started. It seems Mortarion wasn't so much a traitor as just never really a loyalist in the first place. He didn't need a whole lot of motivation to go against the Imperium.

 

Going by Flight of the Eisenstein, I'd say it was the other way round- Mortarion was loyal to Horus first, the Emperor second. Combined with the presence of the lodges in the legion, when Mortarion went over to Horus, he took most of the legion with him.

 

Those he identified as potentially more loyal to the Emperor than Horus- were sent down to Istvaan.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

TEC - You and I have disagreed before, but seriously? Did you completely ignore my post? It adresses a lot of the issues you pinned on the various primarchs.

 

Also, the fault of Lorgar being slow because he stayed and built monuments to the Emperor and such... was exactly what Guillemann did... he just didn't do it personally, instead leaving behind a company or squad (I don't remember which).

 

Guillemann and Lorgar, in that way, are two sides of a coin - one did it with maximum effeciency, one did it with the spirit of the Great Crusade. Lorgar did it slower, but, well, he most definitely cared more.

 

Please, stop viewing everything done by the primarchs you don't like as failure.

[Legatus]

Also, the fault of Lorgar being slow because he stayed and built monuments to the Emperor and such... was exactly what Guillemann did...

Guilliman did not erect monuments to the Emperor. He established stable governments and defenses. Although admittedly in the original fluff it had not so much been the nature of Lorgar's efforts that made the Emperor censure him, but mainly just that it slowed him down so much.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Also, the fault of Lorgar being slow because he stayed and built monuments to the Emperor and such... was exactly what Guillemann did...

Guilliman did not erect monuments to the Emperor. He established stable governments and defenses. Although admittedly in the original fluff it had not so much been the nature of Lorgar's efforts that made the Emperor censure him, but mainly just that it slowed him down so much.

Guillemann did. He just didn't make them objects of worship (which was what got Lorgar censured).

 

Again, they did the same thing with different attitudes. Don't say Lorgar was dumb for what he did - if you do, you're completely ignoring what he told the Emperor at the beginning of TFH. He doesn't see the Emperor any different than Guillemann does - he just has a different name for it that the Emperor didn't like (for good reason).

[jim horatio]

Gav was just having a little fun in "Angels of Darkness", and way too many people bought into it.

 

could you clarify this a little? i get that obviously we only have the word of one fallen that the lion was the traitor and not luther (well, plus luther i guess) , but equally he's the one who was actually there.

[Legatus]

Guillemann did. He just didn't make them objects of worship (which was what got Lorgar censured).

 

Again, they did the same thing with different attitudes.

How is establishing a stable government and capable defenses and having the population build giant cathedrals and temples the same thing? Those are not "the same thing, but with different attitude".

 

 

Gav was just having a little fun in "Angels of Darkness", and way too many people bought into it.

could you clarify this a little? i get that obviously we only have the word of one fallen that the lion was the traitor and not luther (well, plus luther i guess) , but equally he's the one who was actually there.

First, no, Astelan was not there. His opinion is based on what stories he had heard 10,000 years later of the Battle for Terra. He had heard about the heroic deeds of the Imperial Fists and the Blood Angels, but none of the deeds of the Dark Angels. So he concluded, since Jonson was supposedly a strategic genius and would not have missed that battle, that the reason for why there were no stories about the Dark Angels' fighting in the Battle for Terra was because Jonson had intentionally not intervened.

Second, by Gavin Thorpes own admission in the afterword of later printings of that book (or it might have been from the eBook version), he had not planned for that small revelation ("...because he was waiting who would win"), but it was something he just spontaneously wrote as he was writing that scene. He never intended for it to be so controversial.

 

And we aren't even talking about the several editions of stories describing how Jonson was loyal and Luthor corrupted and misled by Chaos, or that when Leman Russ was slowing down the Space Wolves and Dark Angels' advance to terra, Jonson was furious and blamed him for the Legions not arriving in time, which culminated in a duel between Jonson and Russ, which ended when Russ chose not to defend against an Attack of Jonson and was pierced through one of his hearts.

[jim horatio]

Gav was just having a little fun in "Angels of Darkness", and way too many people bought into it.

could you clarify this a little? i get that obviously we only have the word of one fallen that the lion was the traitor and not luther (well, plus luther i guess) , but equally he's the one who was actually there.

First, no, Astelan was not there. His opinion is based on what stories he had heard 10,000 years later of the Battle for Terra. He had heard about the heroic deeds of the Imperial Fists and the Blood Angels, but none of the deeds of the Dark Angels. So he concluded, since Jonson was supposedly a strategic genius and would not have missed that battle, that the reason for why there were no stories about the Dark Angels' fighting in the Battle for Terra was because Jonson had intentionally not intervened.

Second, by Gavin Thorpes own admission in the afterword of later printings of that book (or it might have been from the eBook version), he had not planned for that small revelation ("...because he was waiting who would win"), but it was something he just spontaneously wrote as he was writing that scene. He never intended for it to be so controversial.

 

And we aren't even talking about the several editions of stories describing how Jonson was loyal and Luthor corrupted and misled by Chaos, or that when Leman Russ was slowing down the Space Wolves and Dark Angels' advance to terra, Jonson was furious and blamed him for the Legions not arriving in time, which culminated in a duel between Jonson and Russ, which ended when Russ chose not to defend against an Attack of Jonson and was pierced through one of his hearts.

 

ha, fair. there's so much background in 40k, damn hard to get the whole story! was the duel between jonson and russ in one of the codicies?

[Legatus]

I think that bit is from old "Epic Space Marine" days, and has not been repeated much in later editions. However, I think that Leman Russ was the one insisting to stop on their way to Terra (IIRC that was when the "Leman Russ Battle Tank" STC was discovered and named in his honour) has been repeated.

[The Emperor's Champion]

How is establishing a stable government and capable defenses and having the population build giant cathedrals and temples the same thing? Those are not "the same thing, but with different attitude".

Damn right.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Guillemann did. He just didn't make them objects of worship (which was what got Lorgar censured).

 

Again, they did the same thing with different attitudes.

How is establishing a stable government and capable defenses and having the population build giant cathedrals and temples the same thing? Those are not "the same thing, but with different attitude".

 

If you really think that you can have giant cathedrals and temples when the government is in ruins, then you need to rethink your position. If you think a primarch who thought of himself as the scholar king would be dumb enough to leave the planets he's taking so much time on without capable defences, then you really do need to reconsider your opinion. Do these things really need to be spelled out? I don't think so, because you're obviously smart enough to be favoring Guillemann, but then why can't you consider that Lorgar wasn't a tool? Would the thought be that bothersome?

[Legatus]

If you really think that you can have giant cathedrals and temples when the government is in ruins, then you need to rethink your position. If you think a primarch who thought of himself as the scholar king would be dumb enough to leave the planets he's taking so much time on without capable defences, then you really do need to reconsider your opinion. Do these things really need to be spelled out? I don't think so, because you're obviously smart enough to be favoring Guillemann, but then why can't you consider that Lorgar wasn't a tool? Would the thought be that bothersome?

From this and your last reply to me I get the distinct impression that you are confusing me with someone else, since I did not really make any comments about Lorgar in this thread.

 

Either way, the background does not comment on whether Lorgar was making efforts to ensure that governments were stable and defenses in place. Let's assume that he did. The point remains that what is described as having slowed down his crusade efforts and what was then criticised by the Emperor was that he erected massive monuments to the Emperor (which would likely take considerable time on top of what was required to establish a stable government) and to convert the population to a fierce Emperor cult. So considering that he did put efforts into establishing a stable government and defenses, he would still have done what Guilliman did and then some. And it is the "and then some" that was the problem.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

If you really think that you can have giant cathedrals and temples when the government is in ruins, then you need to rethink your position. If you think a primarch who thought of himself as the scholar king would be dumb enough to leave the planets he's taking so much time on without capable defences, then you really do need to reconsider your opinion. Do these things really need to be spelled out? I don't think so, because you're obviously smart enough to be favoring Guillemann, but then why can't you consider that Lorgar wasn't a tool? Would the thought be that bothersome?

From this and your last reply to me I get the distinct impression that you are confusing me with someone else, since I did not really make any comments about Lorgar in this thread.

 

Either way, the background does not comment on whether Lorgar was making efforts to ensure that governments were stable and defenses in place. Let's assume that he did. The point remains that what is described as having slowed down his crusade efforts and what was then criticised by the Emperor was that he erected massive monuments to the Emperor (which would likely take considerable time on top of what was required to establish a stable government) and to convert the population to a fierce Emperor cult. So considering that he did put efforts into establishing a stable government and defenses, he would still have done what Guilliman did and then some. And it is the "and then some" that was the problem.

You addressed my return point to TEC, which dealt with Lorgar.

 

And I don't disagree with you, believe it or not. But Lorgar didn't do just 'then some', which is what the vast majority of people seem to want to believe. He was simply most famous for his 'then some'.

 

Heck, I'll even throw in that his idea of 'then some' was flawed. But I still respect him, similar as to why I respect Curze - his intentions were pure. Just like Guillemann, Horus, Sanguinus, Fulgrim, Dorn, and all the more favored primarchs he was trying to make the best Imperium he could. He was censured for doing it wrong, in the eyes of the Imperium.

[Ethrion]

I think there is a difference between building statues and edifices to the Emperor declaring that "this is the ruler of Mankind so we honour him and venerate him" and building the same things but then establishing cults of worship and declaring "this is the ruler of Mankind He is a God and as such we worship Him as such and He is the religion". The other primarchs did the former but Lorgar did the later and that's the problem. Whereas the other primarchs left behind worlds loyal and serving to the Emperor as their leader, Lorgar left worlds behind that were worshiping him as a God. It also took longer for the Word Bearers to leave a world who would stay behind and cultivate the religion.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I think there is a difference between building statues and edifices to the Emperor declaring that "this is the ruler of Mankind so we honour him and venerate him" and building the same things but then establishing cults of worship and declaring "this is the ruler of Mankind He is a God and as such we worship Him as such and He is the religion". The other primarchs did the former but Lorgar did the later and that's the problem. Whereas the other primarchs left behind worlds loyal and serving to the Emperor as their leader, Lorgar left worlds behind that were worshiping him as a God. It also took longer for the Word Bearers to leave a world who would stay behind and cultivate the religion.

I know, and I agree that it was a mistake. I disagree with the total "Lorgar was an incompetent moron" point of view.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I think there is a difference between building statues and edifices to the Emperor declaring that "this is the ruler of Mankind so we honour him and venerate him" and building the same things but then establishing cults of worship and declaring "this is the ruler of Mankind He is a God and as such we worship Him as such and He is the religion". The other primarchs did the former but Lorgar did the later and that's the problem. Whereas the other primarchs left behind worlds loyal and serving to the Emperor as their leader, Lorgar left worlds behind that were worshiping him as a God. It also took longer for the Word Bearers to leave a world who would stay behind and cultivate the religion.

I know, and I agree that it was a mistake. I disagree with the total "Lorgar was an incompetent moron" point of view.

 

I don't know, Thirst. Many of his actions were moronic in many ways. Remove the idea that faith or pure motives exonerates his failings and it gets pretty bad.

 

Lorgar deserves scorn both for failing to live up to the standards of the Imperium and for failing to live up to his own credo. Long post so bear with me.

 

Within the criteria of "loyal servant of the Imperium designed to create and fight for the Imperium and Emperor" he was a pretty good flub up.

 

1) Conquest of planets- Inefficiently carrying out his duties. Forgivable, were it not for the other failings, but not a checkmark in the "good job" box. In essence, whether he wanted the job or not, he was not doing his job right. What is more, he reaped the benefits of his position well enough, commanding his Legion of superwarriors to do his bidding. Were he truly against being a warrior, he should have refused command of his Legion. By taking command of them and fighting in the Emperor's name, the expectation is that one will then do the job well.

 

2) Missing the secular truth message of the very empire you are fighting for, which, might I add, every other primarch understood. Even Angron understood it even if he didn't care...I mean c'mon...ANGRON. :P Lorgar had studied the history of the Imperium. The Emperor's stance on religion is made clear simply by looking at the Unification Wars. The Emperor had even, personally, to Lorgar's face, denied his divinity. Lorgar refused to listen. I don't know but that sounds suspiciously like the "no means yes" rationale of soon-to-be rapists and child molesters. Which leads to 2b.

 

2b) The atrocities committed when perpetuating this worship which flew in the face of the Imperium he is supposed to be fighting for. The Emperor wanted a unified humanity, to raise them up and place them in complete dominance of the galaxy. Although at times brutal, the Emperor often used alliance and understanding often, as with the politics of Terra and the disparate parts of the Imperium. Brutality was to be controlled, limited, and used sparingly to get planets in line with his utopian dream for mankind. He rebuked both the Night Lords and the World Eaters for their excesses. A frothing dog on a chain is no good if it slips its chain. Lorgar's brutal pogroms, as remarked in the IA and artbooks, against conquered planets not only slowed his advances, they also went against the Emperor's dream for humanity. It was brutalization of mankind without hope of a nobler purpose(according to the Imperial credo). In effect it was exactly what the Emperor had created the Legions to fight against and to free mankind from by uniting them under the Imperium.

Am I saying the Emperor and Imperium is all loves and hugs? No. Far from it. Merely that even the Emperor did not care for the extremes of Curze, Angron, and Lorgar's actions.

 

3) His reaction to the rebuke by the Emperor. Compared to the actions Lorgar ordered done to spread the faith, this was mild and tame. The populace was evacuated and a single city was reduced to ash. Lorgar knew that other Legions had been brought to complete ruin. He and his Legion had participated in the action. Monarchia's fall was not unprecedented or unforeseeable. If a direct verbal denial from the object of veneration, legions of secular preachers, access to the histories of the Imperium, and the offending Legion destroying religious buildings was not enough to get the message across, then blowing up a city was the most gentle next step up.

The big Vader "noooo" moment, preceded by punching your father/liege lord most trusted and oldest human confidant in the face and followed by lashing out at your more composed brother is unnecessary. One expects greater control from a being with that much power and greater wisdom from a hyper intelligent entity that has lived for a century or so.

 

Personal Failings: These are related to or demonstrated by the above in many ways.

 

1) As a professed Scholar: Many of his Willfully refused the Imperium's Secular Truth, trumpeted by organizations and individuals specifically created and trained to do this and who were attached to the expeditionary fleets. To disagree with this privately is one thing, to openly defy it is another. It is especially foolish given the Emperor's habit of smashing such edifices to religiosity, and even more foolish when one's own forces had done it as well on multiple planets. Incompetent as a Scholar.

 

2) As a professed Philosopher: For a lover of wisdom, he never questioned. He simply swallowed whatever Kor Phaeron told him despite discovering he had been deceived his entire life. He then ignored warriors who had not lied to him urging him not to follow Chaos. He ignored his brother, Magnus the Red, whom he had acknowledged had greater knowledge in such matters than he, who warned him not to pursue such matters. He also denied his God/LiegeLord/Father, whose knowledge and years dwarf Lorgar's own. Lorgar did not act as a Philosopher, in any way, shape, or form.

 

3) As one who professes great Faith: He failed miserably. The strength of true faith is, arguably, to endure. That it survives hardship and the trials of the universe. That it is a mighty fastness for one's mind and soul. Lorgar's crumpled like wet tissue paper. As demonstrated above in my overly long post, the rebuke at Monarchia was not that harsh when taken in the context of actions previously taken by the Imperium and Lorgar himself which included but not limited to: Destroying worlds, destroying any and all religious buildings, and exterminating other Legions who stepped out of line with Imperial Creed. It should not have engendered such a radical reaction and sharp and sudden breach of faith, nor the misplaced violence against your fellows or self flagellation.

 

Lorgar failed to live up to his own professed qualities and that is reprehensible. He did not live up to the Imperium's creed, which given he fights in the Emperor's name, with the Emperor's force, and with authority granted by the Emperor, is reprehensible.

Pure motives or not, he failed in so very very many ways.

[Legatus]

2) Missing the secular truth message of the very empire you are fighting for, which, might I add, every other primarch understood. Even Angron understood it even if he didn't care...I mean c'mon...ANGRON. tongue.gif Lorgar had studied the history of the Imperium. The Emperor's stance on religion is made clear simply by looking at the Unification Wars. The Emperor had even, personally, to Lorgar's face, denied his divinity. Lorgar refused to listen.

1) As a professed Scholar: Many of his Willfully refused the Imperium's Secular Truth, trumpeted by organizations and individuals specifically created and trained to do this and who were attached to the expeditionary fleets. To disagree with this privately is one thing, to openly defy it is another. It is especially foolish given the Emperor's habit of smashing such edifices to religiosity, and even more foolish when one's own forces had done it as well on multiple planets. Incompetent as a Scholar.

To be fair, when the background for the Word Bearers was described, that hadn't been the explicit message of the Emperor. That is a very recent retcon, brought about by the HH series, whose very goal it is to undo any kind of sense and logic the 40K background may at one point have possessed. In previous background, Lorgar had been criticised by the Emperor for being too slow in his progress. This was due to Lorgar's practice of converting the population and having them build massive monuments, but that in itself wasn't the problem. Now the goal of the Emperor has been altered, but the background for the Word Bearers hasn't been.

[Lord_Caerolion]

May I just add though, Ubemensch, that the Emperor never actively reprimanded Curze for his tactics. The other Primarchs did, but the Emperor was content to let Curze go until the demands for his punishment got too strong, after his homeworld was destroyed. In fact, he got reprimanded so late that it was called off because Curze was needed in Istvaan.

So Angron was chastised, Lorgar was chastised, but the Emperor didn't seem to mind Curze, probably because Curze seems to have understood, unlike Angron, that you needed some civilians left on the planet to keep the factories working. He certainly decimated the populations (hell, far beyond that...), but I don't think he ever committed full-scale genocide and wiped out entire planetary populations, which was the World Eaters favourite tactic. He just dropped down, killed every third civilian, and left the planet so terrified the grandchildren would have panic attacks whenever the Night Lords were mentioned.

[Captain Idaho]

Actually that isn't quite right. According to studio sources Curze fought with Dorn and caused him injury. This conflict was the cause of the Primarches meeting together to determine what they should do about Curze. Of course, Curze didn't like that so went on a bit of a bender which resulted in dead bodies and a destroyed homeworld.

 

After this he went out of his way to be nasty to every planet he bought into compliance and then the Emperor sent for his audience to censure them after the stories came back to him.

 

So the Emperor did intend to chastise Curze. Until new information comes out that may change things a little.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I don't know, Thirst. Many of his actions were moronic in many ways. Remove the idea that faith or pure motives exonerates his failings and it gets pretty bad.

That's the thing - he believed he was doing what was right, and his actions based on his belief and his point of view were successful.

 

Lorgar deserves scorn both for failing to live up to the standards of the Imperium and for failing to live up to his own credo. Long post so bear with me.

 

No problem ^_^

 

Within the criteria of "loyal servant of the Imperium designed to create and fight for the Imperium and Emperor" he was a pretty good flub up.

 

I removed the bits where I agreed with you (and as such there is no need for discussion between us) ;)

 

3) His reaction to the rebuke by the Emperor. Compared to the actions Lorgar ordered done to spread the faith, this was mild and tame. The populace was evacuated and a single city was reduced to ash. Lorgar knew that other Legions had been brought to complete ruin. He and his Legion had participated in the action. Monarchia's fall was not unprecedented or unforeseeable. If a direct verbal denial from the object of veneration, legions of secular preachers, access to the histories of the Imperium, and the offending Legion destroying religious buildings was not enough to get the message across, then blowing up a city was the most gentle next step up.

The big Vader "noooo" moment, preceded by punching your father/liege lord most trusted and oldest human confidant in the face and followed by lashing out at your more composed brother is unnecessary. One expects greater control from a being with that much power and greater wisdom from a hyper intelligent entity that has lived for a century or so.

 

I am less than in impressed by Lorgar's action's here myself. Partially, because I hold such a high value in self-control, partially because Lorgar's actions failed to solve anything there. I'm slightly inclined to excuse his actions, however, because I know what it's like to create something, and then have it destroyed. I do not know how it must have felt for an entire city of his creation to be destroyed, especially with the measures that you have described above had been done to atain it.

 

Personal Failings: These are related to or demonstrated by the above in many ways.

 

1) As a professed Scholar: Many of his Willfully refused the Imperium's Secular Truth, trumpeted by organizations and individuals specifically created and trained to do this and who were attached to the expeditionary fleets. To disagree with this privately is one thing, to openly defy it is another. It is especially foolish given the Emperor's habit of smashing such edifices to religiosity, and even more foolish when one's own forces had done it as well on multiple planets. Incompetent as a Scholar.

 

I do not see what this has to do with being a scholar? He knows the Imperium's Secular Truth, as you yourself said. You should read his quote before the book, and what he said to the Emperor before he was punished, about the Emperor being a god.

 

To me, at least, there two things prove he was a competent scholar - he researched the subject (divinity) and formed his own conclusions about it.

 

2) As a professed Philosopher: For a lover of wisdom, he never questioned. He simply swallowed whatever Kor Phaeron told him despite discovering he had been deceived his entire life. He then ignored warriors who had not lied to him urging him not to follow Chaos. He ignored his brother, Magnus the Red, whom he had acknowledged had greater knowledge in such matters than he, who warned him not to pursue such matters. He also denied his God/LiegeLord/Father, whose knowledge and years dwarf Lorgar's own. Lorgar did not act as a Philosopher, in any way, shape, or form.

 

False? Except for ignoring Magnus's warning (which really was dumb, but he was having an emotional fallout, as described below). Also, the only time when he was questioned by his men was when Argel Tal questioned whether or not the Chaos Gods were worth following. Lorgar's response, however, forces me to agree with you - that is, he continues to pursue the Chaos Gods. Not exactly philosophical.

 

3) As one who professes great Faith: He failed miserably. The strength of true faith is, arguably, to endure. That it survives hardship and the trials of the universe. That it is a mighty fastness for one's mind and soul. Lorgar's crumpled like wet tissue paper. As demonstrated above in my overly long post, the rebuke at Monarchia was not that harsh when taken in the context of actions previously taken by the Imperium and Lorgar himself which included but not limited to: Destroying worlds, destroying any and all religious buildings, and exterminating other Legions who stepped out of line with Imperial Creed. It should not have engendered such a radical reaction and sharp and sudden breach of faith, nor the misplaced violence against your fellows or self flagellation.

 

This, you see from your own point of view, not Lorgar's. Lorgar had crushed hundreds of false religions, as you yourself said, totally and completely, and thus the idea of proof that a religion was false was that it's temples and other worthy places were destroyed became firmly rooted in Lorgar's head. This is a natural and logical belief, agreed?

 

Thus, when Monarchia was destroyed, it was confirmation of what everyone else was telling him - his faith was wrong. And his faith was wrong.

 

I also suspect the Chaos Gods had a minor part to play in this, but they probably only amplified the sense of his faith being wrong to the point where he rejected it. After all, would he have pursued them if Lorgar hadn't rejected his faith?

 

Pure motives or not, he failed in so very very many ways.

I beg to differ :P

[The Emperor's Champion]

Actually that isn't quite right. According to studio sources Curze fought with Dorn and caused him injury. This conflict was the cause of the Primarches meeting together to determine what they should do about Curze. Of course, Curze didn't like that so went on a bit of a bender which resulted in dead bodies and a destroyed homeworld.

 

After this he went out of his way to be nasty to every planet he bought into compliance and then the Emperor sent for his audience to censure them after the stories came back to him.

 

So the Emperor did intend to chastise Curze. Until new information comes out that may change things a little.

Er... almost. Upon learning that Nostramo had returned to its old ways in his absence, and that his Legion's recruits were now coming from a world of murderers, rapists, and such, Cruze confessed his visions and fears of being killed by The Emperor to Fulgrim. Out of concern over his brother's mental state, Fulgrim mentioned this to Dorn. Dorn saw this as an attack on The Emperor's integrity and honor, leading him and the Night Haunter into fighting each other. Curze beat Dorn bloody, and ended up with him willingly submitting to arrest. As he waited to be charged by his brothers, Curze changed his mind and escaped, carving a bloody trail out of his confinement and escaping to rejoin his Legion. He then swiftly took his Night Lords back to Nostramo and obliterated the world that had betrayed him.

It was right around this time that the Horus Heresy broke out, so the Night Lords' rogue status kind of got lost in the shuffle as the Imperium raced to muster troops to fight against Horus' forces. Thus, the Night Lords ended up being summoned by the Imperium to fight at Istvaan, where they openly turned upon their Loyalist brothers and fought alongside Horus' troops.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, that's what I said. Just the short version! ;)

[The Emperor's Champion]

Yeah, that's what I said. Just the short version! ;)

Aye. I just feel it's important not to glaze over the fact that Curze was sorta trying to play nice (to a point), and actually went out of his way to punish the world that had turned his Legion evil.

You make it sound like he just went on an arbitrary psycho rampage and that maybe the Imperium nuked his homeworld (as they are wont to do).

 

It really highlights that the Night Lords aren't really Chaos Marines. More like "Naturally Evil, Brutality and Terror Marines".

[Legatus]

They Index Astartes does describe that they were cutting a bloody swathe through the Imperium after blowing up Nostramo, until the Emperor was informed and was about to summon them to Terra, when the Heresy started. The Index Astartes also poins out that Curze eventually started to mingle with Chaos forces.