Marshal Wilhelm Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Er... almost. Upon learning that Nostramo had returned to its old ways in his absence, and that his Legion's recruits were now coming from a world of murderers, rapists, and such, Cruze confessed his visions and fears of being killed by The Emperor to Fulgrim. Out of concern over his brother's mental state, Fulgrim mentioned this to Dorn. Dorn saw this as an attack on The Emperor's integrity and honor, leading him and the Night Haunter into fighting each other. Curze beat Dorn bloody, and ended up with him willingly submitting to arrest. As he waited to be charged by his brothers, Curze changed his mind and escaped, carving a bloody trail out of his confinement and escaping to rejoin his Legion. He then swiftly took his Night Lords back to Nostramo and obliterated the world that had betrayed him.It was right around this time that the Horus Heresy broke out, so the Night Lords' rogue status kind of got lost in the shuffle as the Imperium raced to muster troops to fight against Horus' forces. Thus, the Night Lords ended up being summoned by the Imperium to fight at Istvaan, where they openly turned upon their Loyalist brothers and fought alongside Horus' troops. IA:NL doesn't say Curze went to blow up Nostramo after learning about it returning to its old ways.... unless I have misread it. "What Night Haunter did not know was that Nostramo had spiralled into the corrupt and decadent society it had been before he arrived." The paragraphs in between that and Night Haunter bombarding Nostramo don't talk of him learning of the Nostramo returning to its old ways, nor that the new recruits were thusly 'contaminated'. What am I missing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2812128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Er... almost. Upon learning that Nostramo had returned to its old ways in his absence, and that his Legion's recruits were now coming from a world of murderers, rapists, and such, Cruze confessed his visions and fears of being killed by The Emperor to Fulgrim. Out of concern over his brother's mental state, Fulgrim mentioned this to Dorn. Dorn saw this as an attack on The Emperor's integrity and honor, leading him and the Night Haunter into fighting each other. Curze beat Dorn bloody, and ended up with him willingly submitting to arrest. As he waited to be charged by his brothers, Curze changed his mind and escaped, carving a bloody trail out of his confinement and escaping to rejoin his Legion. He then swiftly took his Night Lords back to Nostramo and obliterated the world that had betrayed him.It was right around this time that the Horus Heresy broke out, so the Night Lords' rogue status kind of got lost in the shuffle as the Imperium raced to muster troops to fight against Horus' forces. Thus, the Night Lords ended up being summoned by the Imperium to fight at Istvaan, where they openly turned upon their Loyalist brothers and fought alongside Horus' troops. IA:NL doesn't say Curze went to blow up Nostramo after learning about it returning to its old ways.... unless I have misread it. "What Night Haunter did not know was that Nostramo had spiralled into the corrupt and decadent society it had been before he arrived." The paragraphs in between that and Night Haunter bombarding Nostramo don't talk of him learning of the Nostramo returning to its old ways, nor that the new recruits were thusly 'contaminated'. What am I missing? Think it's mentioned in one of the Night Lord series that upon returning to Nostramo, that at first they think they're being welcomed back but the populace are hoping the legion have returned to restore order as it had reverted to it's old ways and at that point Curze has a case of " Screw you guys, I'm blowing up home" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2812293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Er... almost. Upon learning that Nostramo had returned to its old ways in his absence, and that his Legion's recruits were now coming from a world of murderers, rapists, and such, Cruze confessed his visions and fears of being killed by The Emperor to Fulgrim. Out of concern over his brother's mental state, Fulgrim mentioned this to Dorn. Dorn saw this as an attack on The Emperor's integrity and honor, leading him and the Night Haunter into fighting each other. Curze beat Dorn bloody, and ended up with him willingly submitting to arrest. As he waited to be charged by his brothers, Curze changed his mind and escaped, carving a bloody trail out of his confinement and escaping to rejoin his Legion. He then swiftly took his Night Lords back to Nostramo and obliterated the world that had betrayed him.It was right around this time that the Horus Heresy broke out, so the Night Lords' rogue status kind of got lost in the shuffle as the Imperium raced to muster troops to fight against Horus' forces. Thus, the Night Lords ended up being summoned by the Imperium to fight at Istvaan, where they openly turned upon their Loyalist brothers and fought alongside Horus' troops. IA:NL doesn't say Curze went to blow up Nostramo after learning about it returning to its old ways.... unless I have misread it. "What Night Haunter did not know was that Nostramo had spiralled into the corrupt and decadent society it had been before he arrived." The paragraphs in between that and Night Haunter bombarding Nostramo don't talk of him learning of the Nostramo returning to its old ways, nor that the new recruits were thusly 'contaminated'. What am I missing? In the Dark King, Curze gives crime statistics for Nostramo before he blows it up. Suffice to say, they're pretty shocking. He most definitely knew that his planet had receded. Also, to be clear, my point about the Night Lords being chastised wasn't saying that they weren't. I know they were. My point was that the Emperor only chastised them when they went rogue and started obliterating innocent worlds. Until that point the Emperor had no problem with them whatsoever, it seems, even with their tendency towards overkill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2812325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 I recall the story being that the Night Lords were greated by a relieved populace that wanted them to restore the order Curze left behind. Instead they began obliterating the planet from orbit. So my question is, is Curze a despicable figure for this deed? I would say so, the Emperor created the Primarchs to unite humanity across the universe not destroy it. Which is what the likes of Curze and Lorgar began doing. So who is the most despicable traitor? Fulgrim, as i would say, or Curze or yet another traitor? Off topic: this is ludicrously off topic but I need to pour my heart out to some fellow hobbyists, yesterday I missed a copy of the Horus Rising audio book on ebay for a really fair price. I didn't even lose the auction, I was simply distracted and it was too late when I remembered I was bidding on it and I'm still biting my behind because of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2812488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Most despicable? Hmm.... I'm going to go with Kurze. While Corax is roaring in his face "Why? Why?" he just laughs =.= even the most vile traitor should provide a reason :whistling: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2812746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 Since I started this thread I reserve the right to resurrect it. I just finished reading Age of Darkness and I'd like to extend the spoiler alert to this wonderful anthology, so go away now if you haven't yet read Age of Darkness. I really loved the story with the loyalist Iron Warriors, it truly kicked ass. But once again ADB took the cake, Savage Weapons was truly a masterpiece, with ADB we have an author who really appreciates the background and is true to the story. Now remember this thread was about which of the traitor Primarchs was the most despicable, I said that I was torn between Fulgrim and Curze.. well that is the past brothers. No one, I stress no one is as despicable a traitor as Curze is, in each instance Curze exhibits a glutton for his own brothers' blood, be it Dorn, Corax or Jonson. Something else I noticed, is Curze prone to leaping at his brother Primarchs or what, I mean we know he jumped at Dorn and ravaged him, in Savage Weapons Jonson was handing him his bottom until..exactly he leapt at him. I mean is that his favorite fighting style the jumping Banshee-Batman Primarch or is it simply the result of his "upbringing" on Nostramo?? Your thoughts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2832974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Engel Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 But once again ADB took the cake, Savage Weapons was truly a masterpiece, with ADB we have an aothor who really appreciates the background and is true to the story. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed Tsang and Sevatar taunting the Dark Angels, calling them "Cousin" and Jonson "Uncle." You know it grated on them... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2833128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 But once again ADB took the cake, Savage Weapons was truly a masterpiece, with ADB we have an aothor who really appreciates the background and is true to the story. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed Tsang and Sevatar taunting the Dark Angels, calling them "Cousin" and Jonson "Uncle." You know it grated on them... Absolutely, ADB really makes the case for the concept of deep-rooted kinship between the Astartes. I find that many authors actually neglect this aspect, ADB on the other hand uses the family names as"father","brother", "cousin" "nephew" in the right manner. the entire foundational myth of 40k would be nothing without the heresy being something graver than just a political struggle for power. It's a terrible outbreak of "family strife", many other authors don't really convey a proper sense of that. ADB does, he is the man. Cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2833235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The most despicable? Horus. Why? Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2833273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 No one, I stress no one is as despicable a traitor as Curze is, in each instance Curze exhibits a glutton for his own brothers' blood, be it Dorn, Corax or Jonson. Something else I noticed, is Curze prone to leaping at his brother Primarchs or what, I mean we know he jumped at Dorn and ravaged him, in Savage Weapons Jonson was handing him his bottom until..exactly he leapt at him. I mean is that his favorite fighting style the jumping Banshee-Batman Primarch or is it simply the result of his "upbringing" on Nostramo?? Your thoughts I have to completely disagree with you I'm afraid. Curze is a master of terror tactics and fighting dirty, but from what we know of him during the Heresy, this isn't something that he enjoys doing. He's lost his mind as well as control of his homeworld. Before the emperor found him, Curze was trying to make Nostramo a safer, more law-abiding world. Sure his methods were questionable but it did work. When he left on the Great Crusade, his world slipped back into anarchy, so when he went back to recruit, "The strongest warriors" it was the gangs and crimelords who were back in charge. Tsang and Sevatar show this quite strongly. Curze isn't as terrible as the legion he commands. I just feel by the time the Heresy occurs, he's lost control of them too. I can't remember the exact line, but there was a part where Lion El'Jonson and Curze call both of their respective soldiers back to them. Lion's men are quick to respond and stand at attention, while Curze's leisurely walk towards their "leader" As for the way he fights, he fights to win. And he does whatever is necessary. Primarchs like Jonson and Dorn follow rules of combat. They feel that if you have to fight outside of those rules, the fight isn't worth being won. Curze doesn't have that problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2833339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 The most despicable? Horus. Why? Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away. To Abaddon and the Black Legion this is the case, yes, but I'd like to hear a little more in depth reasoning why this quote is your given position, if you don't mind. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2833557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Sorry for the Herbert West, Reanimator routine (thread necromancy), but I find in forums when you make a thread that is already covered people dismiss it by saying you should have used the Search function. When you do that, you get accused of thread necromancy. I’ll go with the latter. Sighs abound. Now I read this when it came out, but never put my thoughts about it into words, so I shall do so now. A warning, this post contains too many SPOILERS — so simply do not read it if you’ve not read the book. OK, so, the Word Bearers fell from the Emperor’s light. [strange that I write they ‘fell’, even though they will not do so for another 28–29,000 years (approximately).] I believe they spoke correctly when — regarding the Emperor — they stated that divinity does not automatically make something worthy of worship. However, I would have applied that to the Ruinous Powers as well. The line that most stands out, for me, occurs when Argel Tal witnesses the sacrifices that Lorgar calmly watches, the one involving Ingethel. Argel Tal declares that he could not consider any gods who asked that of their followers worthy of worship. I would not say that the Word Bearers simply turned away from the Emperor, though — they felt betrayed, and realised that the Emperor did not merit their obeisance and adulation. In the same way that an ex–Muslim / –Jew / –Christian may feel misled by their erstwhile religion, the Word Bearers realised they had lived a lie. It turns out, however, that they could not forge their own identity, but had to replace the Emperor with another worthy of worship. At one point Lorgar realises that the Chaos gods have shaped his life in order to lead him to them, and this manipulation of his destiny made him believe them more credible than the Emperor when it came to godhood. Unlike the Emperor who did not seem to know what would happen when he spent his time creating the primarchs, the Ruinous Powers must have felt to Lorgar like all–access agents. Especially as it transpired that the Emperor had called upon those powers to help him create the primarchs in the first place. The thought of treachery did not ring true for the Word Bearers. That the visions shown to them could have come fabricated did not seem likely to those Astartes. Indeed, I suspect that the visions do show elements, at the very least, of what really must have taken place. As with Horus himself, the revelations shown of the future denote what actually will take place (the Emperor as a corpse–god), but the Ruinous Powers always conveniently leave out the fact that the Horus Heresy itself leads to this future. So, a very devious and underhanded way of manipulating the primarchs. Due to this treachery, the other line that stands out for me comes from the Custodian Aquillon, the one Argel Tal befriends. As the dæmonised Word Bearers approach him, he looks on in horror at their deformed, mutated figures, hears their ‘explanations’, and simply tells Argel Tal: “Brother, you have been most blackly deceived.” An absolutely beautiful and hard–hitting moment for me. At first I disliked some of the structure of the book, specifically the emphasis on Kor Phæron and Erebus, but the lack of their actual appearance throughout. On a second reading I came to appreciate it. Most of the book revolves around Argel Tal, a character I like as much as the equally wonderful, rounded protagonist of Horus Rising, Garviel Loken. Even to fellow Word Bearers who have seen what they perceive as the truth, Erebus and Kor Phæron represent shadowy figures who end up breeding suspicion. It seems almost as though Erebus and Kor Phæron had planned everything from the start. Perhaps they had. Kor Phæron does confess to Lorgar that he had allowed kernels of the ‘old’ religions to survive on a lot of planets that they brought into the Emperor’s fold. Perhaps he never let go of the old ways, and instead secretly continued to worship the old gods? It seems likely. We see a counterpart to this in cultures prevalent today. Since I come from an Islamic background, it feels more natural to me to point out elements of Islam’s various cultures that mirror this. When Muhammad created his ummah and preached to people to join him, he cancelled some components of his own previous customs and way of life, and incorporated others into the new rituals. After his death, various other practices ended up as a part of Islam, a lot of it the system of the pagan ‘Arabs that then crept back into the culture. E.g. stoning people to death, belief in intercessors between god and mankind, etc. tl;dr: Free King Awesome! :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2940399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Actually, I wouldn't so much say the Word Bearers were looking for a deity for its own sake, they were looking for the Truth, which they believed came from the divine. What I really got from First Heretic was that the Word Bearers hated what Chaos was, but craved and utterly, utterly required what it represented. Chaos was the Divine Truth of Reality. Yes, it was horrific. Yes, it was grotesque. Yes, it was violent. But above all, it was true. Lorgar wanted the truth so badly, but he hated what he found, and couldn't turn away from it. In Lorgar's mind, the Emperor wasn't only lying to his subjects, he was distorting the very truth of reality. There were gods, no matter how cruel, whereas the Emperor was just a lie. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2940763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Lorgar and his Legion weren't really looking for a Truth, they were looking for vindication. They were humiliated and considered the 20th Legion amongst their equals. They were told their entire existance was a lie and they were fools. They didn't care where their Truth came from, only that they could say it was truth and thus that they were right all along. In the most simplistic and generalised terms of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2940798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Bit of topic from what you guys are discussing but when I re-read The First Heretic the other day I came across something. I'll spoiler it just in case; It seems Lorgar knew of the Cabal's involvement with the Alpha legion.. . Throws some new light on that situation.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2940805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 As for the way he fights, he fights to win. And he does whatever is necessary. Primarchs like Jonson and Dorn follow rules of combat. They feel that if you have to fight outside of those rules, the fight isn't worth being won. Curze doesn't have that problem. Well Lion stabbed Curze unprovoked to gain an upperhand. Bashed Russ' head while he was laughing. Not very sporty i must say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2940814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Furious Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 out of all the primarchs... lorgar is the most interesting, and second only to Rogal Dorn (who is my favorite!) you see lorgar represents what some of us (human beings) need in our lives, faith. faith can be dangerous though if we dont know what we are looking for. it can lead us to dark and evil things. Lorgar wanted something to believe in, something, ANYTHING. thats why he chased after the idea of the "old faith". too me lorgar is the most human out all the primarchs.... he show a human need for something bigger than himself. but in the end, he found Chaos. what a shame, if he remained loyal, he could of help the Big E with forming a better imperium, but faith... faith got in the way. moral of the story. if you need something to believe in... well believe in yourself, your fellow man, and the morals you stand for, NOT THE CHOAS GODS! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2940859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 ^ Or ANY gods, since it was their worship of the Emperor that got them into the whole mess in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2940890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Lorgar and his Legion weren't really looking for a Truth, they were looking for vindication. They were humiliated and considered the 20th Legion amongst their equals. They were told their entire existance was a lie and they were fools. They didn't care where their Truth came from, only that they could say it was truth and thus that they were right all along. In the most simplistic and generalised terms of course. Bloody Alpha Legion behind everything again. :D :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2940996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Lorgar and his Legion weren't really looking for a Truth, they were looking for vindication. They were humiliated and considered the 20th Legion amongst their equals. They were told their entire existance was a lie and they were fools. They didn't care where their Truth came from, only that they could say it was truth and thus that they were right all along. In the most simplistic and generalised terms of course. Bloody Alpha Legion behind everything again. :D ;) Eh? I didn't say a thing about the Alpha Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2941396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Well, you said they were "considered the 20th Legion", but that doesn't exactly mean the other Legions thought they were bad, which is what I assume you meant, instead it means they were considered to be the Alpha Legion, who are the 20th Legion. They're already numbered, it wasn't a ranking system. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2941476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Looks like you’re having some punctuation difficulties while reading that sentence you highlighted a small part of. The way I read it is like this: They were humiliated… …and considered the 20th Legion amongst their equals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2941479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Yeah I'm aware of the numbers of each Legion. I was referring to the fact the other Legions, who were supposed to be their equals considered the Word Bearers to be their inferiors, essentially the last Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2941844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Bit of topic from what you guys are discussing but when I re-read The First Heretic the other day I came across something. I'll spoiler it just in case; It seems Lorgar knew of the Cabal's involvement with the Alpha legion.. . Throws some new light on that situation.. I must have missed that part twice. What does it say to make you think that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2942104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 When the traitor elements have a War council of sorts aboard the Fidelita Lex, Lorgar goes through their reasons for turning against the Emperor and he says this 'It has failed us, Lorgar inclined his head to them ' by being flawed to its core, imperfect in its pursuit of a perfect culture, and in its weakness against the encroachment of xenos breeds that seek to twist humanity to alien ends'. That last bit screams Cabal to me.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233302-the-first-heretic-those-in-the-know-gather/page/4/#findComment-2942180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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