The Nephilim Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I have noticed since my return to B&C, as well as on other forums (Warseer, BoLS Lounge, Dakka and a few others) the general decline of Chaos WIP logs, Chaos questions, and Chaos lists. The overall decline, we all know is due to the current codex, but that's not what I want to rant about, I was just wanting to see what the rest of you all thought. I was kinda of nostalgic while working on my new Dark Eldar and I looked up on the bookshelf to see my only two remaining Chaos models. My still WIP sorcerer lord and a heavily converted/kitbashed aspiring champion. I miss the yesteryear of Chaos. Now, especially in my current local group, when I mention Chaos, the newer players scoff and chuckle and ask questions like, why would you ever play such an underpowered army? I know I've not been playing nearly as long as some of you veterans, but it made me realize, I've seen the passing of an "age" in 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 It happens. :cuss In my time, I've seen Chaos go from frighteningly overpowered and irritating to play against (2nd Edition), to bizarre and underpowered (initial 3rd Edition 'Dex), to a shambling lot of useful and useless sub-lists (IA era), back to frighteningly overpowered, if only in a limited away (the 3.5 "golden years") and then fall from slightly underpowered (initial release of the new 'Dex) to the current state of embarrassing uselessness. Every list has up times and down times. Hopefully, we'll see our way to a better list soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I'd wager that I've been in the hobby around the same amount of time as you, Nephilim. We may not be veterans of the hobby, but I know I'm bordering on it, having been in here for three years. At the end of this edition I know I'll have something under my belt: having played it for its whole life. I don't know how I'll look back on it, if it'll be longing or if it will be disgust, but I know that its a badge of honour of a sort. But that's nothing next to how I feel about our codex. I bought the chaos codex a month or two after it came out, and whilst it was good for a time, I soon realised the shallowness of it. In time I came to envy the depth that other books offered, and finally: I chanced upon this forum. On the net the chaos community was raging at this book. After a while they quieted down, and eventually it was only every once in a while that a complaint thread came up lamenting our book. Next it was threads that didn't address issues, but just said "WHY!?!?!". It seems we've finally died off to the people who just really like chaos rather than play the game. It seems absolutely maddening to me when people complain about the Tyranid codex. The chaos codex was serviceable, sure, but it lacked anything beyond a broken unit in each slot, and fell into predictability months in. The Tyranid book has mostly good options, some don't work so well sure, but the actually broken units are few. The pyrovore, the Harpy and the like, they're just bad. They're not irrevocably useless though! Slap a couple of pyrovores in a spore pod and they can flame a unit really well. Not to say they're usable, but they're bad, but not inconceivably so. A chaos spawn, now there's a broken unit! There's not a single unit a spawn excels against, not one. Guardsmen beat it down in melee! And it costs as much as a terminator! Still, we're so few that our voices are drowned out by Tyranids, it's remarkable how dead we are. Having lived through the chaos book is a mark of honour in my eyes. In about a year's time we're supposed to get a new book, and the cycle of band wagoners will return, but more so I hope that our old brothers and sisters will come back, and we'll be feared once again. At least my friends quiver when they see a squad of oblitterators saunter out from cover. In the mean time, keep fighting the Long War! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nephilim Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 Having experienced more since my initial shock of the 5th edition codex and the emergence of a wider expectancy of other tabletop wargames, I'm amazed that GW has persisted in the slow manner in which they still do business. I am not a fan of the others games, however, but they've smelled the blood on the water. Mantic is doing a sci-fi game, Privateer Press is doing a sci-game and even before that, there were smaller companies doing or designing concepts. I'd really hate to see GW go belly up. I love the franchise and more importantly, the story. I agree that it's a badge of honor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I have played on an off since third with a variety of armies, but I always come back to CSM. Sadly I love infantry and chaos, so 5th is like the anti fun atm. Chaos doesn't need metal boxes let us warp our troops around or something. I expect in the next iteration the dreadclaw will be the piece of kit to have for chaos.. Barely anyone has them compared to rhinos. Seems like the thing to write good rules for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm40k Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I have hope for Chaos, with the next Codex. I hope that it gets written by someone who understands and respects Chaos Space Marines, like the authors of the Imperial Guard and Space Wolves Codexes (codicii???) did their armies. I hope that they give us variants of the current vehicles, and upgrades such as assault ramps for Rhinos - at the moment, what is the point of Berzerkers taking them? I hope that they give us some decent fliers, like a daemon-engine that drops multiple Str 7, AP4 blast templates on our foes. I hope they can return the feel of the Legion/Cult specific armies, without losing us in a mess of optional wargear. Most of all, I hope that they remember that Chaos is the Archenemy of Mankind. It is not the Greenskin, it is not the pointy ears, the robots, the fishmen, or the bugs. It is CHAOS. So let those younger and lacking in true knowledge mock our current pitiful Codex. For our time will come again, brothers; the time when they will fear us once again... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I would love to see a 5th Edition codex, but current rumor says it's not going to happen, but that the Chaos Space Marines will get a WD update and Chaos Legions will be the first codecies out for 6th Edition. Remember, the current codex is still a 4th Edition codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hand Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 All I know is that the idea of a Chaos Legions codex along with a separate Chaos Renegades codex like the rumour mills are suggesting make me ever more eager to restart my Chaos. Who knows? It might be the equivalent of the SW codex in terms of depth of fluff, too. After all, Chaos has a tonne of good fluff, it'd be a shame to waste it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I still see a good deal of Chaos players at local tourneys etc. But all the old guard have quit playing, I am alone here (and currently not motivated to paint anything). :) (And they say that the previous book was restrictive, hah!) On a side-note, I don't really want to see us get an early 6th ed. 'dex, because that would just mean that we'd be left behind again - due to codex-creep - AND they would most likely butcher the fluff even further. /bitterman Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Would there be a difference between late 5th and early 6th? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarias Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 See, I've never even been tempted to run an army other than Chaos. Even if I routinely oscillate between a narrow victory or being absolutely slaughtered when playing against my regular Eldar opponent. The feel of my army (Word Bearers, with a few Alpha Legion specialists - ie. Chosen and Terminators, though the Terminators are all corrupted Loyalist ones with Alpha Legion markings, okay I'm getting off topic), the few rules that work well (Obliterators, anyone? Even though they were better with the last Codex...), and the constant run of fluff that goes on in my mind when I battle is just so appealing I can't be bothered to think of an army that might work better for me. Just have too much fun, even when I'm losing. So yes, I play with the current mediocre codex out of necessity, and am disappointed. But given enough service, the Dark Gods will reward me with something new. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I have not abandoned my CSM's; matter of fact, I've been starting to expand my army. The only reason I haven't been chilling in the Chaos Threads is simply because there has been no topics that have really gotten my attention lately (until FW put out that new pre heresy dread...holy crap!). As for gaming, I finally have my first loyalist army to a point where it can play (for shame, I know), but I only play them once in a while. There's just something about Chaos that makes them extremely enjoyable to play. I guess I just like being the bad guy, lol. Yeah, our codex might look a bit like used toilet paper right now, but I will be patient and continue playing with a smile on my face. Karma is a wonderful thing, and I'm confident that by the time Codex: Legions hits the shelves, we'll tapdancing on our opponent's graves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2808991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I'm in a strange position. I have been aware of 40K and especially Chaos since Slaves to Darkness came out. I own a copy of the 3.5 codex, but I have only really started to play in earnest this past March. So I hear about and can look up what Chaos used to have, but all of my armies are from the 5th ed. book. So, I just use the tools in front of me, and I win often enough to keep me happy and enthusiastic. I am one Land Raider away from having my 2000 point army of The Purge assembled and painted and am working on a DIY renegade chapter to give me some modelling variety and greater sense of "ownership" as I continue to work into an Apocalypse-sized army. I agree with what others have said about Chaos just being fun, whether it's getting to be the "bad guys" (remember, without the villain, the hero is just a schmuck on a farm somewhere) or from having modelling options that make your opponent tell you that your army creeps them out. So, regardless (or in spite of) our codex, I'll be marching for Chaos! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Would there be a difference between late 5th and early 6th? was the a difference between DA/Chaos and SM/SW/IG ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I just hope they turn the gradual decline of our dreads around, they have just become more and more crap since 2nd ed... 2nd ed: If 12" from enemy it became frenzied(double attacks) and had to charge(unless it made a Ld test on Ld10). If not within 12" it suffered from stupidity unless it could clear a Ld test. If stupid, on a 2-6 it would fire all weapons on enemies, on 1 it would fire on the nearest model... 3d ed: Could always move normal, rolled d6 in the shooting phase. On a roll of 1, fleet and must charge, double attacks. Roll of 6, fire twice at nearest model, friend or foe. 3.5 ed: D6 in movement phase. Roll of 1, fleet and charge nearest enemy, double attacks. Roll of 6, same as before except no movement. 4th ed: D6 in movement phase. Roll of 1, same as 6 before. (lol, why suddenly change from 6 to 1) Roll of 6, fleet and charge nearest enemy, NOT double attacks. It doesn't bode well for our insane friends in the next codex... :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Why would anyone bother buying a chaos DN with rules like that? I wont. Not a good marketing strat for GW if they are trying to get our money. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Honestly I doubt the next codex will see our dreadnaughts so bad. After all, they can't get much worse can they? At this point there not worth taking, and you can't make something MORE not worth taking after all, no? At the very least I think that we'll get two types of dreadnaughts, the insane rampaging beasts we have now, and impossibly ancient venerated elders. I'd guess that the "venerable" ones would be expensive and thus not usable like the loyalist ones (i.e no normal dreads) and the crazy one only a suicide unit. But that's only guessing. And if Ward gets the book I don't wanna even read the fluff. On second thought it can't be worse than "Let no evil deed go unrewarded". That's right, chaos think of themselves as EVIL. WHAT?!? Dan Abnett did an interview with the Eternal Warriors explaining his view on chaos (which can be extended to all "evil" factions in fiction as well) explaining the way an evil faction becomes believable. I highly recommend it, and would link to it, but they are quite profane, so seek it out at your own peril! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yeah, I utterly, utterly loathed that quote. Reading that turned Chaos from being the minor pirates this edition made them out to be, down to being moustache-twirling cartoon villains, who are the way they are simply because they are eeevill! Muhahahahaa!! There's nothing I hate more than a villain who's in that role "because they're bad". I'm sorry, but nobody goes "you know what, screw everyone! I'm going evil! Where's the nearest orphanage and kitten farm?" It just stinks of lazy characterisation and writing. Why not just continue the trend and have Abaddon tie Calgar to some train-tracks while stroking his persian gyrinx as thunder crashes in the background, before Draigo swoops in to save the day. "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling GKs!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yeah, I utterly, utterly loathed that quote. Reading that turned Chaos from being the minor pirates this edition made them out to be, down to being moustache-twirling cartoon villains, who are the way they are simply because they are eeevill! Muhahahahaa!! There's nothing I hate more than a villain who's in that role "because they're bad". I'm sorry, but nobody goes "you know what, screw everyone! I'm going evil! Where's the nearest orphanage and kitten farm?" It just stinks of lazy characterisation and writing. Why not just continue the trend and have Abaddon tie Calgar to some train-tracks while stroking his persian gyrinx as thunder crashes in the background, before Draigo swoops in to save the day. "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling GKs!" I guess it depends on how you define good and evil... but it is nice when someone has a reason to something XD... Oh and on the GK note... don't forget their dumb Jokearo (sp?). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Jokearo the jar jars of w40k. But realy the truth is that rules considered or not , the codex is just lame . DA had the worse dex of all meq . playing greenwing made no sense[sm do the same cheaper with identical gear] and pre FAQ DW was a for fun list . yet they have a base of players . even if a lot of those played counts as army , but then again considering chaos done with every possible dex who am I to judge? Why ? because as bad as the dex is it does have nice DA style fluff . No one durning the desing had stupid ideas for their fluff . even if a lot of the DA dex was copypasta [but then again , aside for the chaos SW story so is the Gav dex] it was still good. now a chaos player got the happy chaos family . which a lot of people dont like . the warband system with legions as organizations being no more [even if that was a huge retcone and I would like to see the BL warlord that says no to abadon] and with actualy less fluff then before . We didnt get awesome[or just new] renegade fluff , even when the astral claws/red corsairs were the poster boys for the codex. And if someone wants legion stuff he has to go to IA articles or the 3.5 dex and never knows which part is going to be retconed . rules wise it gives nothing game play wise the 3.5 dex didnt give , but takes a lot of away . But hey at least thanks to our drop in sales and the purge of chaos comunity 5th ed dexs are not streamlined . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarias Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Why would anyone bother buying a chaos DN with rules like that? I wont. Not a good marketing strat for GW if they are trying to get our money. For the laughs. I had a friend's expensive and ominous squad of howling Banshees tied up one game with my dread - the next game, after it shot at my closest squad, it got stabbed to death by a witchblade. Both instances were entertaining. Which ties in nicely to how, even though the rules are crap, they can still be fun to play with. Wiping out an entire squad of Space Marines thanks to Tim the Defiler? Fantastic moment. Realizing that daemon-powered engines are a renewable resource? Wonderful! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 ok . So you play like what 10-20 games where the dread does nothing and if your unlucky[1/3 chance] it i doing something you dont want it to do , which means the army doesnt work ergo there is little fun [unless someone likes to lose of course] in playing it . Till you get that game 11-21 when it does something good . That sucks a bit , you get 10-20 games of non lolz[unless you count those done by your opponent] to get one with them . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 As much as I am liking the idea of being the first to get a brand new shiny Chaos Legions Codex in the new edition, I am also filled with dread at being a test codex for the new format GW want to try out according to the rumours ciculating, we all know the pain and frustration the Dark Angels have and are still going through Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2809931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 As much as I am liking the idea of being the first to get a brand new shiny Chaos Legions Codex in the new edition, I am also filled with dread at being a test codex for the new format GW want to try out according to the rumours ciculating, we all know the pain and frustration the Dark Angels have and are still going through I believe were were one of the test codices last edition. Not quite as bad because Gav's poor balance swung both ways and we got a thing in each slot which rocks, besides fast attack. I don't think we can be called a test codex so much if we're the first book in 6th anyways, because many of the current books are clearly designed for it. Some of the rules don't make sense and some prices are way out. The rumoured changes may make Mandrakes totally with their price for example. At the very least we can't be worse than we started. I'd be happy if we were the next Tyranids. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2810180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Of War Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I do believe we'll go the way of the GK.They were pure crap that people played for the fluff and fun, and so are we (Currently).They were given a new codex and now they are completely overpowered.That will be us in a year's time.Can't wait to get revenge on those that rolled their eyes when anybody took out a CSM army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/#findComment-2810395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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