Brother Nihm Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'd be happy if we were the next Tyranids.Heeeeeell no!They currently have almost as many useless units as we do and they also struggle with de-meching opponents - particularly at range. We do have frags though. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2810532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolakhs Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I refuse to give up my Death Guard. I have been a devotee of Chaos since I was 12, first with Khorne in WHFB, and several years later with Nurgle in 40k. I don't care about getting shafted with the rules, I've been around long enough to realize how they change for good and for worse. I know my army well enough, and I know every weakness and every strength, to the extent that if I lose a game, it's either because luck wasn't on my side or I didn't adequately judge the strengths of an opponent's unit. I've been doing this lately with Grey Knights, and this happened once with a unit of Nob bikers. The thing about Chaos is that we adapt. We change, we are the underdog, the archenemy, and we will come out on top. I will not give up my Lords of Decay, they are the only army that interests me in 40k, there is no other force, save for some Undivided CSM's, that makes me feel like playing 40k. Yes, our dreads suck. Yes, our Vindi's dont have storm shields. Yes our "razorbacks" consist of a rhino with a havoc launcher. Yes our sorcerers suck, and there is no such thing as lieutenants anymore. Yes, our havocs are overpriced compared to loyalist devs, and our terminators are underpowered, and our rules about "the banner dies, we lose all our god's powers" suck. Deal with it. With a new set of rules to get used to with 6th ed. it will take some time to learn my army again. But I will. I haven't lost a game in a year, the worst I've done is tie, and I think that this has some merit to it. I'll admit the fluff in 3.5 was way better than it is now, and I feel disappointed that my current marines are relegated to being "renegades and space pirates" in the current fluff rather than a splinter warband from a large, defined, and fearful legion. But I take it, and I look to the future, and if an opponent asks me about my army, I'll tell them, and I'll correct the misconceptions they have about Chaos. /end rant. -nikolakhs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2810536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarias Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 ok . So you play like what 10-20 games where the dread does nothing and if your unlucky[1/3 chance] it i doing something you dont want it to do , which means the army doesnt work ergo there is little fun [unless someone likes to lose of course] in playing it . Till you get that game 11-21 when it does something good . That sucks a bit , you get 10-20 games of non lolz[unless you count those done by your opponent] to get one with them . Buddy, there was a time (few months ago) when I couldn't remember how the Defiler's battlecannon worked (it had been a few years since I played a game, back in the blessed days of the old codex). I assumed I had to roll for BS, and given that the Defiler has a BS of 3, I spent two games where 150 points did nothing. Then, in the third, when it all worked out, it was such a fantastic moment to see the look on my opponent's face as this 150 point sink wipes out a third of his army over six turns. That was enjoyable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2810882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Initially, when the new(er) chaos book came out, I was pretty stoked. I loved the basic marines, the options, it was pretty interesting. Then the 5th ed dropped, and with it the new Space Marine book. What? Special characters that change the rules for the army based on chapter? Why the hell did I have to loose legion rules (which really have always made Chaos Marines fight completely different than their "brother" legions, more-so than even the different chapters, who still all roughly follow the IA), when they got a nice, neat workaround? BS, call I! And from that point forward, I basically have been most a Xenos player. I've just started getting back into power armor once I bought a GK army. Hopefully, I'll be able to collect a chaos army when their new book comes out, since that's the army that I'd most enjoy playing from a background perspective. Hopefully I can run my Flawless Host and Iron Warriors (and maybe some Night Lords too!) once that book gets dropped. Very much looking forward to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2811098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nephilim Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 Initially, when the new(er) chaos book came out, I was pretty stoked. I loved the basic marines, the options, it was pretty interesting. Then the 5th ed dropped, and with it the new Space Marine book. What? Special characters that change the rules for the army based on chapter? Why the hell did I have to loose legion rules (which really have always made Chaos Marines fight completely different than their "brother" legions, more-so than even the different chapters, who still all roughly follow the IA), when they got a nice, neat workaround? That angered me the most. My friends who played Space Marines looked at me and actually apologized after we got done reading the codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2812164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlâdvar The Destroyer Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I must admit that my chaos Iron Warrior WIP blog hasn't been updated in months, partly down to being so busy & partly down to the fact the current codex chaos just is boring, my Iron Warriors are pretty indvidual, all my champs have servo arms and stuff.. But when it comes to playing them, its really hard to make anything other than pretty basic armies. Alot of codexs now have interesting upgrades, skills & wargear... more vehicles (Chaos marines had whirlwinds & drop pods before & during the heresy) Not to mention the points cost etc... no anti psyker (apart from Khârn) You only get cult troops... what about cult terminators & lords? Needles to say, untill a new chaos codex comes out, my one will be permenty on the shelf... I've now decided to turn to the Space Wolves codex and mainly making a count as logan wing terminator army... so basiclly an Ironwing or "Vladwing" army :) Cuz lets face it theres nothing cooler than having a whole army of Terminator-clad Iron Warriors :P Of course I will probably make a marine list too. I just hope they will introduce a Abaddon wing in the next dex :) I am a dedicated Chaos Marine players, just a little fed up of the dex & I want a terminator army damn it :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2813840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 My thinking on this is that GW unsuccessfully tried to re-cast Chaos as a not-another-Marines army: a move away from the Horus Heresy of ten thousand years ago to the Black Crusades of today where the forces of Chaos have 10,000-year-old Legionnaires, traitor Marines from today, mutants, daemons, cultists and a general tide of menacing-but-disorganized super-badness with the Power of the Warp compensating for what they lack in technology and infrastructure. In this, they failed because firstly, the codex they put out for it was far too sparse and secondly, the old Chaos players really liked the old Legions. Perhaps GW underestimated how strongly people were playing Word Bearers and not just Chaos Marines. Personally, I know off the top of my head three lifelong Chaos players (Iron Warriors, T-Sons, and Alphas) who read the current Codex and, when the realized their Legions basically didn't exist anymore, decided to shelve their armies in disgust in favor of something else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2814019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notanoob Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 At the very least we can't be worse than we started. I'd be happy if we were the next Tyranids. What happened to Tyranids was basically what happened to Chaos. They lost tons of cool upgrades, lost their character, and their fluff was made worse. They also suffer from horrible internal balance and a bunch of really confusing/useless special rules. You do NOT want to be the next Tyranids. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2814514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liba terminatus Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 If we become the next tyranids I am seriously going to show someone the real meaning of furious charge (with a nice helping of RAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!!) <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2814543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverike_prime Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Would there be a difference between late 5th and early 6th? was there a difference between late 4th edition and early 5th edition? Thats what they did to Codex:CSMs and Codex:Dark Angles. Both of them were pre-5th releases intended to be the harbingers of the new codex direction... that got dropped when GW started getting death threats. My thinking on this is that GW unsuccessfully tried to re-cast Chaos as a not-another-Marines army: a move away from the Horus Heresy of ten thousand years ago to the Black Crusades of today where the forces of Chaos have 10,000-year-old Legionnaires, traitor Marines from today, mutants, daemons, cultists and a general tide of menacing-but-disorganized super-badness with the Power of the Warp compensating for what they lack in technology and infrastructure. In this, they failed because firstly, the codex they put out for it was far too sparse and secondly, the old Chaos players really liked the old Legions. Perhaps GW underestimated how strongly people were playing Word Bearers and not just Chaos Marines. Personally, I know off the top of my head three lifelong Chaos players (Iron Warriors, T-Sons, and Alphas) who read the current Codex and, when the realized their Legions basically didn't exist anymore, decided to shelve their armies in disgust in favor of something else. Add another one to that list. I had a 5k Chaos Army that I sold to help finance my new Blood Ravens army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2820726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Would there be a difference between late 5th and early 6th? was there a difference between late 4th edition and early 5th edition? Thats what they did to Codex:CSMs and Codex:Dark Angles. Both of them were pre-5th releases intended to be the harbingers of the new codex direction... that got dropped when GW started getting death threats. Ah, but we're talking the last codex of 5th Edition vs the first or second of 6th Edition, sorry if I didn't make that clearer. Are Orks really that bad? And if the power curve keeps going the way it is, than it won't really matter, because the first Space Marines codex after Chaos will be completely designed to own it as soon as it hits the table anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2821026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverike_prime Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Would there be a difference between late 5th and early 6th? was there a difference between late 4th edition and early 5th edition? Thats what they did to Codex:CSMs and Codex:Dark Angles. Both of them were pre-5th releases intended to be the harbingers of the new codex direction... that got dropped when GW started getting death threats. Ah, but we're talking the last codex of 5th Edition vs the first or second of 6th Edition, sorry if I didn't make that clearer. Are Orks really that bad? And if the power curve keeps going the way it is, than it won't really matter, because the first Space Marines codex after Chaos will be completely designed to own it as soon as it hits the table anyway. I don't really see a difference. Codex: CSM and Codex: DA were the last codexes released before 5th edition. They were intended to be the lead ins to the way the codex would work from then on. Problem was, that didn't happen. GW stopped with the streamlined codexes and left Chaos Marines and Dark Angels in the dust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2821037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Would there be a difference between late 5th and early 6th? was there a difference between late 4th edition and early 5th edition? Thats what they did to Codex:CSMs and Codex:Dark Angles. Both of them were pre-5th releases intended to be the harbingers of the new codex direction... that got dropped when GW started getting death threats. Ah, but we're talking the last codex of 5th Edition vs the first or second of 6th Edition, sorry if I didn't make that clearer. Are Orks really that bad? And if the power curve keeps going the way it is, than it won't really matter, because the first Space Marines codex after Chaos will be completely designed to own it as soon as it hits the table anyway. I don't really see a difference. Codex: CSM and Codex: DA were the last codexes released before 5th edition. They were intended to be the lead ins to the way the codex would work from then on. Problem was, that didn't happen. GW stopped with the streamlined codexes and left Chaos Marines and Dark Angels in the dust. They were the last SPACE MARINE codecies, true, but considering that both Orks and Chaos Daemons came after both of them (and Eldar between), your statement's a little off. What would not surprise me is that they will be very competitive when compared to Space Wolves and Blood Angels, and not similar in power to their current design. Then Dark Angels comes along and will be able to pound Chaos Marines flat, but get pounded in turn by the next version of Space Wolves, and so on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2821050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverike_prime Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Would there be a difference between late 5th and early 6th? was there a difference between late 4th edition and early 5th edition? Thats what they did to Codex:CSMs and Codex:Dark Angles. Both of them were pre-5th releases intended to be the harbingers of the new codex direction... that got dropped when GW started getting death threats. Ah, but we're talking the last codex of 5th Edition vs the first or second of 6th Edition, sorry if I didn't make that clearer. Are Orks really that bad? And if the power curve keeps going the way it is, than it won't really matter, because the first Space Marines codex after Chaos will be completely designed to own it as soon as it hits the table anyway. I don't really see a difference. Codex: CSM and Codex: DA were the last codexes released before 5th edition. They were intended to be the lead ins to the way the codex would work from then on. Problem was, that didn't happen. GW stopped with the streamlined codexes and left Chaos Marines and Dark Angels in the dust. They were the last SPACE MARINE codecies, true, but considering that both Orks and Chaos Daemons came after both of them (and Eldar between), your statement's a little off. What would not surprise me is that they will be very competitive when compared to Space Wolves and Blood Angels, and not similar in power to their current design. Then Dark Angels comes along and will be able to pound Chaos Marines flat, but get pounded in turn by the next version of Space Wolves, and so on. Codex: Chaos Space marines was released in September of 2007 Codex: Chaos Daemons was released in 2008 (I want to say this was in October, but can't confirm it. Can anyone else me out here? I want to say October because I remember a lot of Halloween stuff being wrapped with the Daemon releases) Codex: Eldar was released in 2006 (I don't have the month on hand, but I want to say April) Codex: Dark Angels was released in 2007 Codex: Orks was released in 2008 (I want to say January but if someone has the correct release month handy, please correct me) Warhammer 40k 5th Edition was released in July of 2008. (2006) (2007) (Sept. 2007) (Jan? 2007) (July 2007) (Oct? 2008) Codex:Eldar >>> Codex: Dark Angels >>> Codex: CSM >>> Codex: Orks >>> 40K 5th Ed >>> Codex: Deamons Eldar were out of the gate long before 5th edition was being finalized. Orks were written following the aborted streamlining that was Codex Chaos Space Marines and Codex Dark Angels and would have been written along side the final stages of the development of 5th Edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2821085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander S. Caesare Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Chaos seems to be...so predictable? Always for their patron, right? Fill some desire of their masters. At least have some rebellion in the insides. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2821089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Chaos still attracts some of the best models and converters. I don't care for when people use Chaos minis but loyalists rules. I've been the only person using the Chaos Codex at a tournament. That said it isn't all lost, people have won tournaments even recently with the Chaos Codex. I read the rumors and if they put the Black Legion in the starter box, then there will be a flood of newbie CSM players and a bunch of people dusting off old armies. The problem with putting the Black Legion in the starter box is you have good marines VS bad marines. I've always converted starter box marines to the dark side, now you can buy the book separate which is what I did for the Battle for McCragg edition. Since I painted exactly one ork from the last box set, I think I'm leaning that way again, especially if you can buy the minis in boxes or eBay easily enough. If I never buy another mini, I don't think I'll live to paint them all and I'm not one of the crazies, I don't have unpainted armies, I just paint slow... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2821552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Did some thinking and typing. My ideas/predictions are my own, but I'd wager I get a couple things correct. Probably just should have stuck to painting. Think I'll go get some groceries now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2821606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boshea Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I've been cutting back on my marines to focus on my Warriors of Chaos and to start working on my Ork army. CSM are still my only playable army until I at least finish assembling a good chunk of my orks. Needed to get a second army going though since it will infuriate me far less to hear about army specific rules that make CSM far worse than any marine variant when I'm not playing CSM. Kind of sad that the ruinous powers seem to favor the men who are trying to conquer the old world over the men who want to burn the galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2821728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
major higgins Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I played chaos since a long time ago... I run Khorne army list in 3° edition I run Worldeaters from White dwarf I run Iron Warrior from White dwarf I bless the gods for the old codex and carry on with Iron Warriors and start to play Death Guard and Alpha Legion I stopped fro 3 years then I found this "so nice codex" but i restart, trusting in Nurgle with my beloved Death Guard and planning to return to Iron Warrior, or Worldeaters. But I fear the exit of the new codex and I wont waste my money, so I think that I'll wait for it and Keep going with my Nurgle' servant. But let me say an obvious thing... Every time GW rebuild a codex, made the oldest scrapped choice wonderfulness and fundamental in the new lists, so probably Chaos bikes and Chaos Dreadnougth are going to become devastating... Don't forget that the old metal dreddy will be gone for the new codex exit time, so they must sell the newest one, don you think? Nurgle will bless you battle brothers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2843763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 For me, it's all a matter of money... I have no money anymore... so I have no army... 'nuff said Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2843889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcap Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 For a time, I was selling Chaos Daemons and excess Chaos Marines stuff on eBay to fund an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter army. I had a small start, enough to play a few 500 point games, ready for assembly. But to make the army grow beyond that, I would have to sell off one of my two full armies: either Dark Eldar or Iron Warriors. Dark Eldar are too fun to play, and they are a decent army. So I was willing to sell off the rest of my Chaos Space Marines to fund my loyalists. But then I started thinking about how much work I had put into my Iron Warriors already. I thought about how much I loved my army's look and scheme. So mediocre rules be damned; I decided to stick with Chaos. I traded in my AoBR Tacticals for more Chaos Space Marines. I am reusing the Razorbacks as Chaos Rhinos. The bitz I bought will be Chaos-ified and reused. I am now more motivated than ever to finish painting my force up to 2500 points (3000+ if you count the Apoc. models I have waiting to be assembled). My friend plays nothing but "Chaos". He has a full Chaos Space Marines army (2500+ points), 1500+ points of Chaos Daemons, and 1500+ points of Traitor Guard (with awesome conversions). Even if the Codex gets worse, he will still play his CSM. Of course, my play group is a casual lot. We don't play in tournaments. We strive for fun and cool stories over competitive play. I feel we are lucky in this regard. ;) Death to the False Emperor!! :angry: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2844305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 My thinking on this is that GW unsuccessfully tried to re-cast Chaos as a not-another-Marines army: a move away from the Horus Heresy of ten thousand years ago to the Black Crusades of today where the forces of Chaos have 10,000-year-old Legionnaires, traitor Marines from today, mutants, daemons, cultists and a general tide of menacing-but-disorganized super-badness with the Power of the Warp compensating for what they lack in technology and infrastructure. In this, they failed because firstly, the codex they put out for it was far too sparse and secondly, the old Chaos players really liked the old Legions. Perhaps GW underestimated how strongly people were playing Word Bearers and not just Chaos Marines. Personally, I know off the top of my head three lifelong Chaos players (Iron Warriors, T-Sons, and Alphas) who read the current Codex and, when the realized their Legions basically didn't exist anymore, decided to shelve their armies in disgust in favor of something else. I'll be honest, I'd rather see two separate codexes; one for daemons and traitor legions, and one for renegades. The Daemon/Traitor Legion one reflects millennia in the Eye of Terror or Maelstrom, with oodles of chaotic options, more daemon engines than you can shake a snotling at, and all that. Basically 3.5 but a little less OPed. And yes, I *do* want a daemon engine that isn't a less-useful Monolith. At least give me Indirect Fire back! The Renegades one is a basic Space Marines list with chaotic options; you pick a path of damnation and then you get advantages and disadvantages based on the path you take. For example, a Khorne-based Path would lose cyclone missile launchers and assault cannons, but your troops would be closer to Khorne Berserkers (plasma pistols instead of assault/heavy weapons), your dreads could take dual DCCWs and have to roll for blood rage, and your baseline would get power weapons instead of power fists. It would also be missing some of the more elite choices like Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans, Ironclad and Venerable Dreads, stuff like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2845344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherMoses Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 I will say this. When the pendulum swings back and the new chaos codex comes I believe that it will make the 3.5 codex look like a coloring book in power level and options. Chaos will once again be THE powerful army of 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2845481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 I've been playing since 3rd Edition, so I've seen ups and current downs of Chaos. I won't lie, I haven't been on B&C for a while because I became so disenchanted with my Death Guard / Chaos armies that I took a break from them to play Orks, and then finally just got so fed up in general I played WarmaHordes. I recently got back into my Death Guard in no small part thanks to Forge World's Pre-Heresy Armor Marks, so I've been re-doing my FW Death Guard army up as historically accurate, which is the only thing that keeps my interested these days: the hobby. I go to my FLGS and while most of the lists people play are friendly, they're still usually BA / GK / SW / IG, which means from the get-go my fluffy Death Guard list is at a disadvantage. I've managed to pull out wins against them, which people respect, but it doesn't change the fact that our codex is so boring and bland that I don't even feel anything when I play. I only really have two lists that I've constantly played for what now? 5 years? It's old. At least with the 3.5 Edition, you could come up with a plethora of different lists (I miss my 9 Troop Slot Death Guard list). Thankfully, most of the folks I play with are cool with FW rules as well, so I've been able to field Blight Drones, Necrosius, Plague Hulks, and the Servants of Decay to spice things up, but it still makes me pine for the "glory days". I've seen in the 10 years I've played game nights back in 3.5 where you would actually see all 9 Traitor Legions fielded on the same night, to now myself being the only Chaos player for the most part. I've seen maybe one other that plays the boring and overplayed tourney list. Yawn. I'm really hoping that the rumors are correct and GW will be releasing a new Chaos codex in March of next year, and I have faith that they will get it right. It's the fact that it may not be true that also gnaws at me. Until then, I'll keep trying to find bits sites that either sell or actually keep stock of the FW Pre-Heresy armor pieces, and maybe I'll start a log on here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2845727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 But, the burning question is, will they have a uber-character to beat Draigo. I really cannot imagine how somebody can outdo Draigo, unless this guy actually went two for two with the Emperor. And even Ward can't do that to a book. Can he? On the other hand, i am practically slobbering at the idea of a actual fluff-correct codex. As in, make ten thousand year old first-gen space marines BETTER than normal marines. Unless you field all chosen, you can't really get the feel, and i can't help but question why the traitors have been learning how to hide for Ten thousand years in thier own backyards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233328-the-overall-decline-of-chaos/page/2/#findComment-2845732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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