The Overall Decline of Chaos

[Brother Delias]

As to the huron debate... I have only this to say...

 

If I play chaos, I want to play chaos...

 

If I play orks, I want to play orks...

 

Huron has none of the "feel" of one of the chosen lords of the chaos gods. when I actually started this game, I had read both the fantasy and 40K chaos books, together they had the same ideal that a lord or aspiring champion owed everything they were to the god they followed, and that, is what motivated me into loving the feel of chaos. He does however, feel almost exactly like my freeboota Kaptain... score one for GW bashing the concepts of the two armies I play most...

 

Personally, I would rather like it if they had old abby stick huron's head on a pike... if I am to play a pirate'y chaos marine... I'd rather like it if he were a bit more... elitist?

 

Oh yeah... and I would be interested in seeing the legions giving a bit more of their glory back... the legions I think I loved most was IW, as I thought it too interesting to have elite, cyborg warriors hellbent on rampant destruction backed up by basilisks...

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don't think they should get rid of Huron, just read Blood Reaver or the Imperial Armour books to get a much more interesting portrayal of the character. Plus, he's representative of the newer renegades. However, he's in no way the "new Abaddon", or an actual rival to the threat of the Legions. He's simply another facet of Chaos.

 

My opinion, the next codex should bring more focus back onto the threat posed by Abaddon, while keeping Huron as a seperate rallying point for the disaffected recent renegades (who're closer to the Maelstrom than the Eye). Oh yeah, also, lose Huron's cartoon-villain portrayal, and focus on the A D-B portrayal, of a guy clinging to life only through barely-working bionics, the aid of the Dark Gods, and sheer, utter stubbornness.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

Gods i love blood reaver. Not only for the NL, i'd buy it for the portrayal of Huron. Tired, bloodthirsty, charismatic, genius. And hanging onto life with bottom end augmetics, held together with staples and ducktape. Did i mention he's in constant wracking bodily pain. Bad- :)- ass.

 

Other than that unashamed fanboyism, yeah, i agree with Lord_Caerolion. ;)

[neonmeat]

As a player that has only ever played 5th Edition Rules with the latest Chaos Space Marine Codex (I've been playing 40k for about a year) at first I thought it was great, Lash of Submission, Plague Marines, Daemon Weapons! All great models and what looked like some pretty cool rules.

 

However as I have continued playing the hobby and looked at and played against a few more of the current Codices and also delved deeper into the Chaos Fluff I just feel that the current dex lacks depth fulffwise and lacks options that many of the others have ten times over (Dark Eldar, Blood Angels etc).

I agree with a previous poster however that the 'dex is not a guaranteed fail if played well but it is definitely not forgiving if you make a mistake.

 

IMO a kind of fix might be make the God Troops Elites, meaning if you are playing a Warband you have your standard CSMs led by a Lord or whoever (I think it would be pretty cool if you could make a Lord or Captain like the Exalted from Soul Hunter you know with a daemon inside him perhaps granting extra special rules!) and then if you want to run a Legion you can for example take a specific World Eater Lord/Captain who then makes the corresponding World Eater Elite choice count as Troops. Therefore you will have less Troops in your Legion Armies than your Warbands representing the lack of Marines still around from the pre heresy times and as these are elites and have thousands of years combat experience they should obviously get other bonuses such as improved stats etc.

 

On the Huron subject though when I first got into the Hobby I asked a red shirt at GW what would be a good HQ choice as I wanted a 'Character' and was leaning towards Bile, he advised "buy Huron!" which I did, used him in one game and realised he is utter fail!

If he is supposedly one of the greatest Chaos Lords in the galaxy you think he would kick a little more ass, and for a guy who is supposedly constantly wracked in agony you would think a little 'feel no pain' wouldn't go a miss!

 

Also there is a difference it seems to me between Marines that worship the Chaos Gods and ones who are simply renegades fighting the False Emperor (Talos!) that in fact reject the gifts of the various Gods that have corrupted and mutated their brothers, you cannot really represent at the moment.

[Son of Rawl]

Huron imo is the poster boy for Chaos Renegades, he is the epitome of a chapter master who has gone rogue and is gathering those to him who are tired and fed up with following old dogma and traditions. I see him as the Lord of all those who simply just want to go ':) You' to the system and then to go do what they want.

 

Abaddon though is the master of everything chaos in the mortal realm, he is the Warmaster and the only one bar Horus who has ever gained the support of all the Chaos Legions and the backing of all four gods, Huron despite his vast Empire can not hope to match this regardless of what he has at his command.

[Bulwyf]

I believe the major problem is that the people who actually play CSM are by far the fans of the lore and fluff and who trot out Legion themed armies. The latest codex was an attempt by GW to essentially tell its own fans they were doing it wrong all these years because there are no Legions and just random warbands who may or may not even care about their old Legions.

 

Which of course is nonsense. I do not believe the Legions would simply dissolve and have no interest in staying together or would completely forfeit every allegiance and oath of brotherhood they had between them. The Chaos players who for years have carefully kept Legion specific armies and themes represent this ideal in the actual game. The latest codex was a slap in the face of every Chaos player who wanted to keep individual themed lists based on Legions. Instead the only thing it offers is a homogenized Chaos experience that has no flavor, no frills and makes every game the same. There's no reason to ever put your armies together in a different form because they are all the same now.

 

Hopefully the next codex will give us Legion specific rules and a reemergence of the Legions as a whole to threaten the Imperium.

[Terminatorinhell]

I believe the major problem is that the people who actually play CSM are by far the fans of the lore and fluff and who trot out Legion themed armies. The latest codex was an attempt by GW to essentially tell its own fans they were doing it wrong all these years because there are no Legions and just random warbands who may or may not even care about their old Legions.

 

Which of course is nonsense. I do not believe the Legions would simply dissolve and have no interest in staying together or would completely forfeit every allegiance and oath of brotherhood they had between them. The Chaos players who for years have carefully kept Legion specific armies and themes represent this ideal in the actual game. The latest codex was a slap in the face of every Chaos player who wanted to keep individual themed lists based on Legions. Instead the only thing it offers is a homogenized Chaos experience that has no flavor, no frills and makes every game the same. There's no reason to ever put your armies together in a different form because they are all the same now.

 

Hopefully the next codex will give us Legion specific rules and a reemergence of the Legions as a whole to threaten the Imperium.

Pretty much this, night lords should have terror squads, the obvious four gods squads, alpha legion should get an infiltrating marine squad.

[darth_giles]

I believe the major problem is that the people who actually play CSM are by far the fans of the lore and fluff and who trot out Legion themed armies. The latest codex was an attempt by GW to essentially tell its own fans they were doing it wrong all these years because there are no Legions and just random warbands who may or may not even care about their old Legions.

We got that a little in the 3.5 codex, so its nothing new. The problem came with a few specific CSM lists that were extremely powerful- super shooty Shaanesh, Khornate assault armies, and the Iron Warriors artillery company. They weren't unbeatable, but were very tough if played right. They also drew a lot of complaints. Plus our daemons were always good choices to have (as opposed to questionable choices in 3.0 ), which drew even more complaints.

 

Although the other possibility is just that GW wanted to push WISYWYG, which was admittedly downright impossible in the 3.5 codex.

[Maleficum]

I agree with the majority here. The current Codex: Chaos Marines is not only bland and boring, it's thoroughly unfluffy. It might be a little underpowered, but as I'm warming back into the hobby, I talked to a Space Marine-player who really hated playing against the overpowered Chaos Marines. Really, I asked, and I was informed that they always played "last man standing" and the opponent used everything in the codex, including Abboddon and a retinue of Terminators... sure they'll stand, but in six turns they can't 'make back their points' as the math-hammerers of old said it. He also used cult troops at wild abandon, and I'm not even sure he didn't put a sorceror in with the berzerkers.

 

I loved the 3rd ed codex, as it was full of options - and modelling oppoutunities! I really like my possessed Berzerkers (which I now can't use) and enjoyed fiddling with greenstuff, glues and sand for my plaguemarines. Granted, it was horribly open for abuse, especially in the low-terrain-coverage-tournament scene, with four HEAVY-choices and 2x5#marines squads for TROOPs... but in friendly games one really didn't do that. At the time we had starcannon eldars and the ubiquitous las/plas-marines, so the Chaos Codex wasn't really that bad. Now, before people discovered the newfangled non-chaos, non-marine codeci we had twin lash-princes leading berzerkers in the charge while the plaguemarines/some dudes brandishing a Nurgle-symbol dutifully stayed back and held the objectives, while the chosen terminators suicided.

 

 

I hope for a return of the 0-1 Deamon Prince and extended armoury. I'd also like a rule like the Wolf Guard, were no Chaos Champion can be identically armed/gifted. (I was a real cheapskate in 3rd and often used only +ST & Spiky Bits for my champs and Chaos Luitenant. I do miss my Luitenants, especially since I really only have one lord model (the Typhus one), but I understand that 6th will be more about characters - and I remember playing Tyranids in 3rd were the Space Marines set an unarmed 30pts Captain behind the gunline, so I really think chaos should have the same point sinks as everyone.

 

I also would like for Cult troops to be elite, unless an HQ choice make the corresponding mark TROOPs. I realy enjoy the Obliterators as ELITE and the Dreadnought as a HEAVY-choice with some poor chap strapped in and enduring the pain. I remember warning my marine opponent of destroying the dread, as I might just toss one of his marine-lads innit. Sure, it might fire at my own troops, but in the Black Companies it pays to watch your back.

 

HQ - Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerors (more psychic powers!) and 0-1 Deamon Prince

Special Characters that have a rule change for the war band/force and that fiddle with the FOC

 

ELITE - Chosen (veteran skills, maybe just infiltrate like now), Chosen Terminators and Possessed (if random, they really should be rolled for before deployment!)

Cult squads (which may become TROOPs given HQ's Mark). As mentioned, I liked it when Obliterator-cults was ELITEs.

 

TROOPS - chaos marines (keep the dedication of today w/icons), cultists/zombies, deamons (up to 1 per chaos marine squad*),

 

*)Maybe generic, but then I'd really like the models for it. I really hate the idea of having my lovely metal Bloodletters be generic ST4 no pw) God-spesific deamons should probarly be ELITE, one per cult TROOP.

 

FAST - Raptors should be cults and gain Hit&Run*, chaos bikes should have spiky bits (re-roll attacks). I'd like the Furies to appear here, but maybe there also should be an oppourtunity for god-spesific FAST deamons for cult TROOPs?

 

HEAVY - it would be cool to have a landraider with something other than three lascannons, predators and defilers rock, and I'd still like for the dreadnought to be HEAVY and unrealiable. HAVOCs are still cool, also with 4xSpecial Weapons.

 

* Beautiful models diserve beatiful rules like in the old codex, even at 30pts they were almost always MVP

 

Cool and Iconic Equipment/Deamonic Gifts and Vehicle Upgrades. Assault ramps for Rhinoes sound cool, but I DO NOT WANT the 3rd ed Rhino Rush back. Come to think of it, I really would like to get back the 4th ed transport rules. I like my 40k Warfare to be a blend of WWI and modern city fights, were the APCs and Tanks are mainly support. It would be cool to get Drop Pods, but I'd also like there to be a distinction between the armies.

 

 

 

P.S. I'd really like for Chaos to be like the Tyranids. Cool options to model, and it is an excellent point that the Tyranid codex will make even more sense in 6th ed.

[Brother Ambroz]

Please please please not the special character rules! That part of the codex SM was a horrible addition. Personally I hate using special characters and love using generic HQs, let me use my lord and sorceror I spent so much time on without the whole counts as stuff.

[darth_giles]

Please please please not the special character rules! That part of the codex SM was a horrible addition. Personally I hate using special characters and love using generic HQs, let me use my lord and sorceror I spent so much time on without the whole counts as stuff.

You're fighting a losing battle against the industry as a whole there. One of the arguments I keep having over and over with War Machine people is PP's absolute refusal to produce a generic army leader. Your armies *must* be led by a special character, which kills the RP aspect of it for me. So what if I can have a force led by Abbadon, what if I want to have my own plots independent from him and his overinflated ego?

[Bulwyf]

Please please please not the special character rules! That part of the codex SM was a horrible addition. Personally I hate using special characters and love using generic HQs, let me use my lord and sorceror I spent so much time on without the whole counts as stuff.

 

Total agreement. I'm not that long removed from a long fight at a local gamesnight because a SM player just slagged me nonstop for using my own independent renegade chapter (Shadow Wolves) and with their own Chapter Master instead of going with Abaddon "like any SANE player would do". Ugh. I thought the whole point of having some looseness in lore was to ENCOURAGE individual creative lists and characters?

[Brother Ambroz]

Yes it's a losing battle but will I give up on it? NEVER! You guys should keep fighting the good fight as well

[Maleficum]

Please please please not the special character rules! That part of the codex SM was a horrible addition. Personally I hate using special characters and love using generic HQs, let me use my lord and sorceror I spent so much time on without the whole counts as stuff.

You're fighting a losing battle against the industry as a whole there. One of the arguments I keep having over and over with War Machine people is PP's absolute refusal to produce a generic army leader. Your armies *must* be led by a special character, which kills the RP aspect of it for me. So what if I can have a force led by Abbadon, what if I want to have my own plots independent from him and his overinflated ego?

 

Yeah, we really should just accept it. In 3.5 I just used a Chaos Luitenant w/pw, pp, d.str. & spiky bits, but the armoury made it possible to have a great Lord, which wasn't the same point sink as the special characters. Looking at the SM Codex, I really think it's great that they give character to the chapters of renown.

 

 

We all know the players can't be trusted with a "character design rules"-set, but we're still allowed to make characters with specia rules for friendlies. Just remember to err on the side of to pointy, :D.

[darth_giles]

We all know the players can't be trusted with a "character design rules"-set, but we're still allowed to make characters with specia rules for friendlies. Just remember to err on the side of to pointy, :D.

The only characters that I saw which were too over the top were the "Ernest Hemmingway, C'tan Hunter" builds. But those were a reaction to the Necrons not having to get opponent's consent to run special characters- which was a new thing back in the days of 3rd Edition. Prior to the Tau codex, you just couldn't run a named special character, especially in tournaments. The general standby rule at RTTs was "no Citadel Journal lists, no Imperial Armor, and nothing that requires your opponent's approval."

 

Course a lot of them would also require a validated ArmyBuilder list as well, even after GW released Armies of the Imperium and Enemies of the Emperium.