Brother-Librarian Hesperos Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 So my brother and I, he plays SW I play DA, were debating the point of space wolves falling to chaos. He claims it is not really possible as their physiology changes them to wulfen. I remember hearing about chaos wolves and it makes sense they could succumb so I was wondering if I could get your input and references to go along with your thoughts, don't really care which way it goes, I'm mostly just curious. Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 There are Skyra's (i think) Dark Wolves in the chaos codex but that doesn't specifically say whether they are Space Wolves that have fell or not. The main mention of Space Wolves falling to Chaos is where Blackhearts Corsairs are trying to capture a wolf cruiser and in the end some Space Wolves turn their guns on their brothers instead of getting killed themselves. Then again the 13th company have spent 10,000 years in the eye of terror and not succumbed to Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2808645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Token Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 <spoiler> test </spoiler> How do you make spoiler marks? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2808711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuro Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 As with all GW fluff, events are contradictory. GW are primarily a miniature selling company, and as part of their strategy to do that they introduce new 'cool' armies to sell models. Even better if that army can be constructed from existing kits. They took the opportunity to launch a number of sub-lists - armies broadly based on an existing codex, and so requiring less development time - during their narrative campaigns. One of these was the 13th company. Since the idea for that force was that they were the legendary lost company of the Space Wolves, the problem arises as to how they would still be around. The obvious fluff justification is that they've been in the eye of terror, where time is fluid. This begs the question though, why aren't they corrupted? and leads to the design solution - they can't be because of the wulfen curse. Even better, this solution allows them to introduce a unit of cool models (wulfen) without bringing werewolf marines into the core Space Wolf force. Everything would be fine there, except there's little editorial control at GW and obviously no one can remember or read everything. Skyrar's Dark wolves aren't the problem, because there's only a suggestion they're space wolves (name and where they operate), but since Fenris is right by the eye of terror the presence of Chaos marines in the sector is hardly revolutionary - and Space wolves aren't the only wolf themed chapter. Remember the Lunar Wolves? The tricky bit comes from the story in the chaos codex of half a ship of space wolves falling to chaos and turning on their brothers during battle, which I dislike for a number of reasons, not least of which is it's incompatibility with the Eye of Terror dex. Essentially they can't both be right. While I could accept that Space Wolves aren't totally immune, and that the odd one may succumb now and then in the warp, the number required to fall to gift the corsairs that vessel makes the idea of the 13th company untenable - those ship guys were even in normal space! My feeling is this - 40k has an 'unreliable narrator' concept - we only ever read impressions and opinions, and since one army has its entire existence invalidated by one paragraph in an unrelated codex, I choose to ignore that story. But then I'm a Space Wolf. Tsuro Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2808723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkseer Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Space Wolves are notoriously stubborn and fight to the bitter end! I'm sure that some would break their oaths of fealty. It even mentions that this has happened in the past in the current Space Wolves Codex. However, examples would be few and far between. From a sensible point of view, where's the incentive for a Space Wolf to turn renegade? They're probably the most free thinking of all the Chapters. They can do whatever the hell they want! Normally freedom and abuse of power is what tempts other marine Chapters to turn renegade. But there'd be nothing in it for the Space Wolves. They're a law unto themselves already, lol! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2808738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 As mentioned the current Chaos dex has an example of Huron taking down a Space Wolves cruiser in space.... in the end the Wolves that remain have the option to join him or... not. They take him up on it. I could definitely see it happening. Not so much from the 'chaos' standpoint but more from the angle of something putting off a pack of Wolves, or something like that. I could see the Imperium pissing them off or some event pushing a pack over the line. I don't see this nearly as much of an internal issue as perhaps something that happens at an Imperium level. You know the way Huron got sick of paying the taxman... that sort of thing. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2808776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I think the skyrar and red corsair stuff is awful and I'm inclined to believe they were alpha legion :P There will be no sw's in my red corsairs. My personal belief is that sw's fall to the wulfen and not chaos. Which is only one step away from ultimate dishonor. Losing to the wulfen is still very much a weakness. I think those brothers susceptible to chaos simply fall to the beast within. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2809060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 While i find the Red Corsair's blurb to be complete bullspit, i do believe that Chaos can turn anybody given enough time. the choices made by the individual will make them into the being they want to be. anybody can fall to chaos (i personally believe even the Grey Knight can be corrupted, or what else was the point of slaughteing the sisters convent?), regardless of rule of cool. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2809063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arez Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Even though I'd love to believe even wolves are immune to Chaos.It is possible for 1 or 2 to turn to Chaos. Id give an example but some people my not have read a certain book. I agree Wolf Lord Kieran that even Grey Knights must turn as they are all phsykers and phsykers are more susceptible to daemonic possession. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2809071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_starrise Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I don't agree w/ Wolves turning to Chaos personally, I don't see large numbers doing so as they are far more prone to falling to their own dark side of the Wulfen. I do agree that anyone can fall to the lust of power & greed & any man can succumb to the desire to become master of all he surveys, thus I could see a Wolf or even a handful breaking off & then striving to be a planetary or galactic ruler but I do not see them falling en masse. Thus, the Red Corsairs' fluff could be possible, esp if they handn't been SW for that long. I could see brash hot headed Blood Claws falling in w/ "the bigger dog" so to speak or perhaps that Wolf Guard Battle Leader who was always stuck in a Wolf Lord's shadow. Lastly, I could see a Rune Priest being possessed by a daemon due to the nature of psykers & the warp. So, yes, it is possible, but is it likely to see hordes of SW turning against the Imperium? No. Though it is possible if not likely to see few traitor wolves who have built a retinue of non-daemon tainted CSMs who elected to follow them due to fighting prowess I'd say & could make for a very cool story & army IMHO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2809183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Whether they arw Skyrar's or Corsairs, where do any of you get that they have, "fallen" to Chaos? Going renegade does not mean you fall in with all the hokey pokey Chaos gos worship, just that they have renounced their oaths to Russ and the Emperor and gone just that, renegade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2809818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I agree with Brother Ramses. I would find it more likely that Space Wolves would turn renegade than actually turn to worshiping the Ruinous Powers and fall to Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 is it actually mentioned those wolves swore alliance to chaos? because if not it still makes them traitors, renegades, but no worshippers of chaos Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Well it might not be the Space Wolves per say, but Battle of the Fang had a Great Company-sized force of corrupted and mutated Wolf Brothers who bore chaos mutations and all of that stuff beyond normal Wulfen mutations. Battle of the Fang pg 470. He still saw the faces of those he killed. Tortured faces. Faces that mased a dreadful awareness. Somewhere deep down, the Wolf Brothers knew what they had been twisted into. That's from the Great Wolf by the way. So we have confirmation that those of Russ's geneseed can fall to Chaos, or at least be forcibly turned into twisted abominations of Chaos. Of course the Wolf Brothers were far from Fenris, but it's hinted that Magnus had something to do with the fall of the Wolf Brothers. And then we have Skull Harvest mentioning Space Wolves as part of Huron's forces and two Wolf Brothers show up as part of Honsou's warband in Chapter's Due. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 since i haven't read the battle of the fang yet i don't know all the details but chaos still has the power to turn people into spawns etc by the use of withccraft(they even have a power like that in their codex), surely the one eyed gaint,cursed be his name, could easely preform such "magic" upon any he would face Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Its possible. That much is doubtless. The Space Wolves have a higher resistance than normal amongst space marine chapters shown repeatedly in the fluff- part of wich is the Wulfen. The 13nth company are excellent proof of this. But the only astartes to have no fallen members is the GK, and even that seems dubious these days. Outside of that no custodes has fallen to chaos and only one sister of battle. Thus we have to assume atleast several wolves have fallen over the years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Token Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Daemonifuge has some sisters falling, more then one. How do you add spoiler thingies? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 But the only astartes to have no fallen members is the GK, and even that seems dubious these days. Outside of that no custodes has fallen to chaos and only one sister of battle. Thus we have to assume atleast several wolves have fallen over the years. Actually the GK Codex also lists fallen Sisters who were corrupted by the Bloodtide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Actually the GK Codex also lists fallen Sisters who were corrupted by the Bloodtide. :P oh come on guys, surely i wasn't the only one laughing? and maybe some space wolves have fallen over the years, but it was my understanding the canis helix made us imune to the gifts of chaos. once our lack of willpower lapses and/or the influence of chaos becomes too strong for even the most stubborn wolf to stay focussed the canis helix kicks into action and the wulfen takes over. the wulfen, a being so driven by instinct and bloodlust it is uncontrollable by almost none. in my view the canis helix was the ultimate protection against chaos(especially before they came up with those wolves, if you only take all the fluff into account before that story you'll notice the wolves had a reputation to be immune to chaos, together with the grey knights). yup, that's what the canis helix is, the ultimate protection to chaos, but at what cost.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Actually the GK Codex also lists fallen Sisters who were corrupted by the Bloodtide. :) oh come on guys, surely i wasn't the only one laughing? and maybe some space wolves have fallen over the years, but it was my understanding the canis helix made us imune to the gifts of chaos. once our lack of willpower lapses and/or the influence of chaos becomes too strong for even the most stubborn wolf to stay focussed the canis helix kicks into action and the wulfen takes over. the wulfen, a being so driven by instinct and bloodlust it is uncontrollable by almost none. in my view the canis helix was the ultimate protection against chaos(especially before they came up with those wolves, if you only take all the fluff into account before that story you'll notice the wolves had a reputation to be immune to chaos, together with the grey knights). yup, that's what the canis helix is, the ultimate protection to chaos, but at what cost.... if it really was the ultimate defense against chaos now then the Wolf Brothers would'nt be actively aware of that had happened to them then? If it is the ultimate defense against Chaos then there is no need to use any other geneseed then is there? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arez Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Its possible. That much is doubtless. The Space Wolves have a higher resistance than normal amongst space marine chapters shown repeatedly in the fluff- part of wich is the Wulfen. The 13nth company are excellent proof of this. But the only astartes to have no fallen members is the GK, and even that seems dubious these days. Outside of that no custodes has fallen to chaos and only one sister of battle. Thus we have to assume atleast several wolves have fallen over the years. But it stats in one of the first omnibus books(i cant remember i read them within a few days of each other) that psykers are more prone to daemonic possession, so wouldnt the GK be even more likely to fall to chaos? Also just because it they say they dont fall doesnt mean anything.If you had troops fall to chaos and are supposedly immune to chaos you wouldnt tell anyone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martok Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Actually the GK Codex also lists fallen Sisters who were corrupted by the Bloodtide. :) oh come on guys, surely i wasn't the only one laughing? and maybe some space wolves have fallen over the years, but it was my understanding the canis helix made us imune to the gifts of chaos. once our lack of willpower lapses and/or the influence of chaos becomes too strong for even the most stubborn wolf to stay focussed the canis helix kicks into action and the wulfen takes over. the wulfen, a being so driven by instinct and bloodlust it is uncontrollable by almost none. in my view the canis helix was the ultimate protection against chaos(especially before they came up with those wolves, if you only take all the fluff into account before that story you'll notice the wolves had a reputation to be immune to chaos, together with the grey knights). yup, that's what the canis helix is, the ultimate protection to chaos, but at what cost.... Nail on the head here and I am surprised it hasn't been said earlier. The Canis Helix has always been said to be immune to the warping effects of Chaos. The Wolf Brothers could have been warped by Chaos as they had an unstable Gene Seed (which with Wolves IS the Canis Helix essentially). Also none of the renegade Wolves mentioned in any literature suffer from mutations they are just hired guns from my understanding. This idea of Wolves going renegade is more than tenable as the codex states that many Great Companies have disagreed with the Great Wolf and gone their separate ways and with the way that the Wolves seem to view the greater Imperium I can't see them shirking from a scrap with the Inquisition. Without Russ to lead the pack Space Wolves are so fiercely independent I think the idea that they would always follow the same goals as a "greater good" mind set is laughable to be honest. - Martok Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arez Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Actually the GK Codex also lists fallen Sisters who were corrupted by the Bloodtide. :) oh come on guys, surely i wasn't the only one laughing? and maybe some space wolves have fallen over the years, but it was my understanding the canis helix made us imune to the gifts of chaos. once our lack of willpower lapses and/or the influence of chaos becomes too strong for even the most stubborn wolf to stay focussed the canis helix kicks into action and the wulfen takes over. the wulfen, a being so driven by instinct and bloodlust it is uncontrollable by almost none. in my view the canis helix was the ultimate protection against chaos(especially before they came up with those wolves, if you only take all the fluff into account before that story you'll notice the wolves had a reputation to be immune to chaos, together with the grey knights). yup, that's what the canis helix is, the ultimate protection to chaos, but at what cost.... if it really was the ultimate defense against chaos now then the Wolf Brothers would'nt be actively aware of that had happened to them then? If it is the ultimate defense against Chaos then there is no need to use any other geneseed then is there? But we can't have any succesors(wich would be anyother chapter using our helix i think) as shown by the Wolf Brothers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 and most off you forget at what cost this presumed immunity to chaos brings along. read wolf's honour, there's a reason why it's called the curse of the wulfen. it's also why i dislike the idea of space wolves being werewolves/vikings in wolf's honour a wolf guard turned wulfen and murdered an entire imperial guard HQ, as well as a fellow space wolf if memory serves me right, i'm not a runepriest like valerian though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Actually the GK Codex also lists fallen Sisters who were corrupted by the Bloodtide. :) oh come on guys, surely i wasn't the only one laughing? and maybe some space wolves have fallen over the years, but it was my understanding the canis helix made us imune to the gifts of chaos. once our lack of willpower lapses and/or the influence of chaos becomes too strong for even the most stubborn wolf to stay focussed the canis helix kicks into action and the wulfen takes over. the wulfen, a being so driven by instinct and bloodlust it is uncontrollable by almost none. in my view the canis helix was the ultimate protection against chaos(especially before they came up with those wolves, if you only take all the fluff into account before that story you'll notice the wolves had a reputation to be immune to chaos, together with the grey knights). yup, that's what the canis helix is, the ultimate protection to chaos, but at what cost.... if it really was the ultimate defense against chaos now then the Wolf Brothers would'nt be actively aware of that had happened to them then? If it is the ultimate defense against Chaos then there is no need to use any other geneseed then is there? But we can't have any succesors(wich would be anyother chapter using our helix i think) as shown by the Wolf Brothers Which, in that case means it's not that quite perfect as the Wolf Brothers have shown us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233331-caution-falling-wolves/#findComment-2810873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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