Caution: Falling Wolves

[hendrik]

Which, in that case means it's not that quite perfect as the Wolf Brothers have shown us.

you're thinking of another kind of ultimate then some of us do gree. what we ment was that the canis helix is the space wolves their ultimate protection to chaos, a genetically build in safe-fail system that kicks in once a space wolf can't keep the inner wolf under control/the lure of chaos becomes too much.instead of going chaos worshipper our space wolf astartes now becomes a wulfen, a beast in al but most aspects,nay, a monster! hence the canis helix is both a wolf's salvation as well as a possible doom. after all pitty them who have been wulf bitten, for they know what doom awaits them...

[Gree]

Which, in that case means it's not that quite perfect as the Wolf Brothers have shown us.

you're thinking of another kind of ultimate then some of us do gree. what we ment was that the canis helix is the space wolves their ultimate protection to chaos, a genetically build in safe-fail system that kicks in once a space wolf can't keep the inner wolf under control/the lure of chaos becomes too much.instead of going chaos worshipper our space wolf astartes now becomes a wulfen, a beast in al but most aspects,nay, a monster! hence the canis helix is both a wolf's salvation as well as a possible doom. after all pitty them who have been wulf bitten, for they know what doom awaits them...

 

And yes, as shown with the Wolf Brothers the Canis Helix did't exactly take over now did it?

[hendrik]

Which, in that case means it's not that quite perfect as the Wolf Brothers have shown us.

you're thinking of another kind of ultimate then some of us do gree. what we ment was that the canis helix is the space wolves their ultimate protection to chaos, a genetically build in safe-fail system that kicks in once a space wolf can't keep the inner wolf under control/the lure of chaos becomes too much.instead of going chaos worshipper our space wolf astartes now becomes a wulfen, a beast in al but most aspects,nay, a monster! hence the canis helix is both a wolf's salvation as well as a possible doom. after all pitty them who have been wulf bitten, for they know what doom awaits them...

 

And yes, as shown with the Wolf Brothers the Canis Helix did't exactly take over now did it?

i haven't read battle of the fang yet so i can't tell, but i take your word for it that it didn't. perhaps when i read it it will change my mind of how the canis helix works. as far as i've heard it contains quite a lot of information about it as well as a lot of information about the wolf brothers.

[Blacksad]

(especially before they came up with those wolves, if you only take all the fluff into account before that story you'll notice the wolves had a reputation to be immune to chaos, together with the grey knights). yup, that's what the canis helix is, the ultimate protection to chaos, but at what cost....

let's put an emphasis here, and disregard the wolf brothers for now...

 

the wolf brothers weren't spacewolves. who is to say they weren't magicaly created or altered humans/space marines from other chapters, dressed in salvaged armour from space wolves that died in combat? It's imo not impossible that Magnus simply implanted memories into those victims, to make sure they'd have the desired psychological effect on his foe.

 

it's not cause a thousand sons primarch tells us we can be corrupted by chaos, and shows us some forsaken that happen to look like wulfen, and are dressed in broken space wolves armours, that they are mutated space wolves.

[Grey Mage]

Its possible. That much is doubtless. The Space Wolves have a higher resistance than normal amongst space marine chapters shown repeatedly in the fluff- part of wich is the Wulfen. The 13nth company are excellent proof of this.

 

But the only astartes to have no fallen members is the GK, and even that seems dubious these days. Outside of that no custodes has fallen to chaos and only one sister of battle. Thus we have to assume atleast several wolves have fallen over the years.

But it stats in one of the first omnibus books(i cant remember i read them within a few days of each other) that psykers are more prone to daemonic possession, so wouldnt the GK be even more likely to fall to chaos?

 

Also just because it they say they dont fall doesnt mean anything.If you had troops fall to chaos and are supposedly immune to chaos you wouldnt tell anyone.

Nah, before mr. ward broke the fluff into little shattered peices in the most recent codex it was quite simple- No grey knight has ever fallen to chaos.

 

Yes, they are all psyckers. So was the emperor of mankind. Your weakness becomes your strength with time and training. A normal person might not know the one theyre talking to is tainted by the warp- a trained psycker will know quickly. A normal SW will know that they are surrounded by taint, but wont know that the voice over the vox is itself a warp-spawned message. Being able to see these energies, and to refute them on their own terms, is a powerful weapon in the right hands.

 

Sadly, many lack the strength or the training to use it right- and so psyckers fall to chaos. The GK are past that point of vulnerability.

 

In a similar vein the curse of the wulfen comes to the surface when a space wolfs willpower is lax- an entrance that chaos shares. The inner beast blocks alot of the lures of chaos- it cares nothing for the pleasures of slaanesh, nor the tricks of tzeentch- nor is it afraid of the works of nurgle and as an animal it has other cares than pure bloodlust- its an aggressive animal, but not all combat leads to khorne.

 

Now, that being said there are other ways to fall to chaos than slow lures. Its been shown that the use of sorcery nearby can bring out the wulfen too though, so what does that leave?

 

Conscious choice. Such as the badly scripted bloodclaws in the C:CSM story. If a wolf decides to align himself with the ruinous powers of his own free will the wulfen inside cannot save him. The man is still in control, not the beast.

 

Some warp effects are incredibly strong and are not resisted by the will but rather by the body. The might of the emperors engineering helps protect against this kind of taint- but it can be overwhelmed. A wolf might fall into chaos this way without knowing it, though the realization may trigger the wulfen within.

 

Lastly, pride. More so than most any chapter space wolves are allowed the sin of personal pride. It is likely one of our greatest weaknesses- it can lead a man into many faulty decisions, and is certainly an open gate to the ruinous powers. Our camaraderie and the wisdom of the priests shields a wolf against the hubris that can be found at the extreme end of pride, but I have no doubt some wolves have fallen for the bait of promised glories.

[Midgard]

Re: Wolf Brothers

 

I wonder how much of the Canis Helix problem has to do with the Fenris recruiting stock. There had been very strong indications through the Horus Heresy series that Fenrisians themselves are genetically modified from baseline human stock, perhaps by early colonists of the planet, in order to survive on a death world. As such, Canis Helix could be unique in that it works as intended with the Fenrisian recruits, but malfunctions with recruits from other worlds, who may not share the Fenrisians' genetic heritage.

 

This has two weak spots: first, why wouldn't the Wolves simply settle other worlds with Fenrisian colonists, and draw upon them as a recruitment base (considering they know of the problem with their gene-seed, and they at least at one point cared about increasing their numbers, it is a simple solution to an otherwise complex problem. Second, what of Terran Wolves early on in the Legion's history?

 

The first problem can be addressed by a liberal application of grimdark through politicking (i.e. the Inquisition/HLoT/whatever has major problem with the Wolves initiating a major buildup on their own, and makes it impossible for the Wolves to initiate colonization programs). The second problem could be handwaved away through better understanding of technology/gene-seed/genetics during the Great Crusade - after all, it is the Emperor we are talking about, and he probably was using a more advanced process to create the Legiones Astartes than the one used in M41.

 

Ultimately, there is no contradiction - Canis Helix could be an imperfect protection against some of the warping effects of Chaos, but only when applied to Fenrisian recruits. It does not provide the same protection to non-Fenrisian Wolves, which is why we see the events in "Battle of the Fang".

 

And that, in turn, also creates a question of how much did the Emperor know about the locations of the Primarchs. It is a bit too much of a coincidence for the anti-Chaos measure to only work properly with the recruits from one specific world amongst the millions - and that world just happened to be the one that Russ landed on, out of all twenty Primarchs. Considering how much the Emperor's nature of planning for the long term is emphasized through the Heresy series, it could be evidence that he knew far more than he let on in terms of scattering and locating the Primarchs.

 

Of course that is a discussion for the Heresy forum, but it is a poignant thought to emerge from the coincidence of Fenris/Vlka Fenryka genetics interaction.

[hendrik]

but I have no doubt some wolves have fallen for the bait of promised glories.

yet what wolf would want that kind of glory if he knows it's not because his own strength of will and body but by the tricks and magic of some cursed god of chaos?i'd say our character can work both ways, surely we aspire to greatness and long sagas, but on the other hand our independance,stubbornness and pride can also prevent us from giving in to any magically offered help.with all the established fluff i really think it impossible for a space wolf to recieve the gifts of chaos, be it wanted our unwanted. afterall the canis helix isn't just a psychic thing but also something genetically. note this doesn't mean i think it's impossible for a space wolf to turn coats and join a chaos warband to fight alongside them. i just don't see them turning to the chaos gods themselves

[hendrik]

midgard, when reading your post it suddently hit me. what if the effect of mixing the canis helix with fenrisian DNA is a freak of nature?what if it resulted in some new kind of immune-to-chaos-genetic code? what if it was an effect the allfather didn't mean to happen? a mutation he had not forseen yet when he saw it got aware of the benefits of it? seriously, do we have any evidence of wulfen that are not of fenrisian blood?

[Lord Ragnarok]

Please forgive me if this was posted earlier. Both of these quotes are from the 13th IA

 

Homeworld

Little needs to be said of Fenris, the inhospitable, ice-bound world from which the Space Wolves come, but whether the 13th Company have found a home within the Eye of Terror is unknown. Certainly, the Canis Helix would prove a vital factor in survival within the Eye, for it is known that the Curse of the Wulfen is want to surface as a defence against the influence of Chaos- No doubt the Wulfen-kind have walked upon daemon worlds the like of which would drive a Space Marine of any other Chapter beyond the point of sanity. Whether they have ever paused in their hunt long enough to establish any sort of permanent base of operations seems unlikely, and against their nature.

 

 

Gene-seed

That the Canis Helix is responsible for the condition of the Wulfen is known, and it has been suggested that it is this savage force of nature that resides within each Space Wolt that has allowed the 13th Company to survive the long millennia of corruption by the power of Chaos.

 

What is not known, and remains to be seen, is whether their presence within the Eye of Terror has tainted the gene-seed of the 13th Company in any way. Many simply point to the bestial appearance of the Wulfen-kind, and their use of scavenged Traitor wargear as all the evidence needed to condemn them, but others defend their methods as pure necessity.

[Arez]

midgard, when reading your post it suddently hit me. what if the effect of mixing the canis helix with fenrisian DNA is a freak of nature?what if it resulted in some new kind of immune-to-chaos-genetic code? what if it was an effect the allfather didn't mean to happen? a mutation he had not forseen yet when he saw it got aware of the benefits of it? seriously, do we have any evidence of wulfen that are not of fenrisian blood?

1. :lol: HOLY CRAP! thats wierd and actually if you think of it would make sense. Ale for Midgard and you

 

2.dont go and get philosophical on us.your a good fighter.we dont need to lose that :)

[Gree]

the wolf brothers weren't spacewolves. who is to say they weren't magicaly created or altered humans/space marines from other chapters, dressed in salvaged armour from space wolves that died in combat? It's imo not impossible that Magnus simply implanted memories into those victims, to make sure they'd have the desired psychological effect on his foe.

 

They arn't at all. The intention of the author was obviously to make them Wolf Brothers, otherwise there would be little point in including them plotwise.

 

Magnus himself said nothing about the Wolves being corrupted. rather the Wolf Brothers arrived seperately and Ironhelm seemed to be pretty sure they were Wolf Brothers and did't seem suprised about the fact that Astartes of Leman Russ's geneseed could be corrupted.

 

Ultimately, there is no contradiction - Canis Helix could be an imperfect protection against some of the warping effects of Chaos, but only when applied to Fenrisian recruits. It does not provide the same protection to non-Fenrisian Wolves, which is why we see the events in "Battle of the Fang".

 

Thing is, the Wolf Brothers were implied to include Fenrisians. One Space Wolf talks about how they gave the Wolf Brothers half of the entire Space Wolf Legion and they did't last beyond the term of a single Great Wolf. We don't know how they recruited either.

[Marshal Rohr]

Your not immune to Chaos, you had a pack go with Huron, and all the other examples Gree mentioned.

[jamsight]

I thought the official cannon was that only the Grey Knights where incorruptible and almost every other chapter has had a marine or two fall to Chaos and in some cases whole companies I know it's a little bit of a pride thing to say that no wolf ever has fallen but in some cases they properly have it's not been written in a book I have read or anything but in 10.000 years of history I would put big money on it ( just none of mine have ;-) )

[Midgard]

Thing is, the Wolf Brothers were implied to include Fenrisians. One Space Wolf talks about how they gave the Wolf Brothers half of the entire Space Wolf Legion and they did't last beyond the term of a single Great Wolf. We don't know how they recruited either.

 

It very well might be the case - I have about another 150 pages to go in "Battle of the Fang", and I understand there are more revelations on the fate of Wolf Brothers in the remainder of the novel. My theory is based on the idea that most of the mutated... things were non-Fenrisians, newer recruits and the like. It also seems to agree with the time scale - Wolf Brothers were apparently disbanded about two hundred years prior to the novel's events. Since it's been about a thousand or so years since the Scouring, perhaps more, we can assume that if Wolf Brothers were founded after Scouring, they would have lasted for about 800 years, give or take a century or two. Even with the Wolves being fairly long-lived (as evidenced by Logan Grimnar and Ulrik the Slayer), this means that the majority of Wolf Brothers would have been recruited on their new home world by the time the Chapter was disbanded - Fenrisians would definitely have been a minority by then, and only a few might have possibly survived by the time the chapter was disbanded.

 

Or, it could be the rather typical internal consistancy error in GW chronology.

[hendrik]

a large portion of this debate depends on how the canis helix works, and unfortunatly we've never recieved a great insight in how it works specifically. from what is hinted it seems like the canis helix combined with fenrisian genetics form the ultimate defence to chaos. the living proof of this is the 13th company who have not a single member go over to chaos and yet have been exposed to the warp for the last 10000 years. not a single other chapter or even the grey knights have undergone such a test of sheer willpower for so long and remained untainted.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Your not immune to Chaos, you had a pack go with Huron, and all the other examples Gree mentioned.

 

Going to Huron does not equal chaos. Maybe they are counter traitors. Maybe they are alphas. In any case I think the 13th IA shows it does not occur as easily.

[Gree]

a large portion of this debate depends on how the canis helix works, and unfortunatly we've never recieved a great insight in how it works specifically. from what is hinted it seems like the canis helix combined with fenrisian genetics form the ultimate defence to chaos. the living proof of this is the 13th company who have not a single member go over to chaos and yet have been exposed to the warp for the last 10000 years. not a single other chapter or even the grey knights have undergone such a test of sheer willpower for so long and remained untainted.

 

They have beeen exposed ot the warp, but inside the warp we don't know if they've been in there for an actual ten thousand years. Time flows differently. They would have been there for 2 months or a million years going by how the warp operates. And we don't know if not a single memeber has fallen for sure, because most of the ifnromaiton we have of them in Inquisitiorial observations and guesses without a way to be sure.

[Grey Mage]

All we know is that a sizable portion of them have not fallen, and that they have been in there for hundreds of years in their own time.

[Schultzhoffen]

Every Chapter can be corrupted.

 

Only Grey Knights are incorruptable.

 

That's the official fluff.

[Grimtooth]

the wolf brothers weren't spacewolves. who is to say they weren't magicaly created or altered humans/space marines from other chapters, dressed in salvaged armour from space wolves that died in combat? It's imo not impossible that Magnus simply implanted memories into those victims, to make sure they'd have the desired psychological effect on his foe.

 

They arn't at all. The intention of the author was obviously to make them Wolf Brothers, otherwise there would be little point in including them plotwise.

 

Magnus himself said nothing about the Wolves being corrupted. rather the Wolf Brothers arrived seperately and Ironhelm seemed to be pretty sure they were Wolf Brothers and did't seem suprised about the fact that Astartes of Leman Russ's geneseed could be corrupted.

 

Ultimately, there is no contradiction - Canis Helix could be an imperfect protection against some of the warping effects of Chaos, but only when applied to Fenrisian recruits. It does not provide the same protection to non-Fenrisian Wolves, which is why we see the events in "Battle of the Fang".

 

Thing is, the Wolf Brothers were implied to include Fenrisians. One Space Wolf talks about how they gave the Wolf Brothers half of the entire Space Wolf Legion and they did't last beyond the term of a single Great Wolf. We don't know how they recruited either.

 

Half of the Legion was not given to the Wolf Brothers.

 

 

When Wyrmblade is talking to Morek about the Tempering, he mentions what the plans were to have been for the Wolf Brothers (page 420). They were gifted a homeworld, half the fleet, half the armouries, and half the priests. This makes it appear that most if not all of the Wolf Brothers were not Fenrisian, but instead natives of Kaeriol. This would lend credence to only Fenrisians being compatible with the Canis Helix except we know that there were Terran Space Wolves. Wyrmblade does hint that the distance from Fenris (page 421L might have been an issue.

 

[hendrik]

Half of the Legion was not given to the Wolf Brothers.

 

 

When Wyrmblade is talking to Morek about the Tempering, he mentions what the plans were to have been for the Wolf Brothers (page 420). They were gifted a homeworld, half the fleet, half the armouries, and half the priests. This makes it appear that most if not all of the Wolf Brothers were not Fenrisian, but instead natives of Kaeriol. This would lend credence to only Fenrisians being compatible with the Canis Helix except we know that there were Terran Space Wolves. Wyrmblade does hint that the distance from Fenris (page 421L might have been an issue.

this really makes me wonder if i was on the right path with my new way of thinking;

what if the effect of mixing the canis helix with fenrisian DNA is a freak of nature?what if it resulted in some new kind of immune-to-chaos-genetic code? what if it was an effect the allfather didn't mean to happen? a mutation he had not forseen yet when he saw it got aware of the benefits of it? seriously, do we have any evidence of wulfen that are not of fenrisian blood?

so, do we have any terran blooded wulfen? if not it could be an indication the protection by the curse of the wulfen only kicks in when it's combined with fenrisian genes, who are genetically altered in the first place themself. this could also explain why the wolf brothers could get corrupted, they didn't have the fenrisian genes and thus not the failsafe system of the wulfen. so do we have any evidence of the wolf brothers having any wulfen?

[Gree]

the wolf brothers weren't spacewolves. who is to say they weren't magicaly created or altered humans/space marines from other chapters, dressed in salvaged armour from space wolves that died in combat? It's imo not impossible that Magnus simply implanted memories into those victims, to make sure they'd have the desired psychological effect on his foe.

 

They arn't at all. The intention of the author was obviously to make them Wolf Brothers, otherwise there would be little point in including them plotwise.

 

Magnus himself said nothing about the Wolves being corrupted. rather the Wolf Brothers arrived seperately and Ironhelm seemed to be pretty sure they were Wolf Brothers and did't seem suprised about the fact that Astartes of Leman Russ's geneseed could be corrupted.

 

Ultimately, there is no contradiction - Canis Helix could be an imperfect protection against some of the warping effects of Chaos, but only when applied to Fenrisian recruits. It does not provide the same protection to non-Fenrisian Wolves, which is why we see the events in "Battle of the Fang".

 

Thing is, the Wolf Brothers were implied to include Fenrisians. One Space Wolf talks about how they gave the Wolf Brothers half of the entire Space Wolf Legion and they did't last beyond the term of a single Great Wolf. We don't know how they recruited either.

 

Half of the Legion was not given to the Wolf Brothers.

 

 

When Wyrmblade is talking to Morek about the Tempering, he mentions what the plans were to have been for the Wolf Brothers (page 420). They were gifted a homeworld, half the fleet, half the armouries, and half the priests. This makes it appear that most if not all of the Wolf Brothers were not Fenrisian, but instead natives of Kaeriol. This would lend credence to only Fenrisians being compatible with the Canis Helix except we know that there were Terran Space Wolves. Wyrmblade does hint that the distance from Fenris (page 421L might have been an issue.

 

 

That quote if anything applies to the opposite in my mind. They where given half of everything essentially, and the original purpose of the Legions was to reduce their numbers. Even in the Space Wolf Codex we are told the Wolves divided. Not just a few sent to form a new chapter, but divided.

[TheDVoid]

Falling to chaos occures because of poor loyalty or poor willpower.

Space Wolves are loyal to a fault, and if they lack willpower then

they can not keep the beast within at bay and they succumb to the

wolfen. Now it is always possable that wolves could fall to chaos, but

the question that raises for me is whats their motivation?

 

As for the Gray Knights, they cant turn to the forces of chaos as their faith

and loyalty are second to none (except the adeptus custodes but they are

super cool) a gray knights primary weapons is his faith and strength of will.

I mean look at Crow, uses a deamon weapon but as a standard blade as

he has the strength to resist.

[eyeslikethunder]

so, do we have any terran blooded wulfen? if not it could be an indication the protection by the curse of the wulfen only kicks in when it's combined with fenrisian genes, who are genetically altered in the first place themself. this could also explain why the wolf brothers could get corrupted, they didn't have the fenrisian genes and thus not the failsafe system of the wulfen. so do we have any evidence of the wolf brothers having any wulfen?

 

Not to my knowledge it was one my disappointments with HH space wolf books that no terrans were shown or the effect fenris or Leman Russ had on the Wolves