Callidus assassin...useful?

[thade]

In the old book, she would hit the table and could charge in immediately. Now that she "arrives using the Deepstrike Rules", she can't assault after she hits the table. She does a nice number of hits to the target, and at only 3" away and Fleet she'll make the charge on her next turn...if she survives the round of shooting that's about to follow.

 

On the one hand, this isn't that bad of a limitation. She's got to land somewhere that you've got other units already to offer support (other targets) so she doesn't take the brunt (or if she does, something else didn't). She's not really built to drop in all by herself and eat something. Also, nothing says she can't drop next to (and affect) a unit that's already mired in an assault.

 

Unless I'm missing something? Thoughts?

[jeffersonian000]

Currently useless in this edition due to not being able to assault the turn she arrives.

 

SJ

[thade]

Currently useless in this edition due to not being able to assault the turn she arrives.

She's not useless, she just doesn't serve the role I would expect her too...though, given your synopsis I can see I likely didn't miss anything. ;)

 

I was kind of hoping that the FAQ would power her up with an HI equivalent, but that didn't happen.

[BrotherWasted]

EDIT: She's not that hot. Wounds normal marines on 4+ with that stupid weapon strength vs Leadership rule.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, I've been using her in some of my games as I used to use her in most of my DH lists above 1500pts. In every game I've played with her using the new dex, she has died on my opponent's turn immediately after she appears. A 4++ save and no HI means that she will die before she can be of any use after her initial attack upon appearance. Going to ground for a better cover save does not negate torrent of fire. And although she if pulling fire away from my other units, those units are infinitely more survivable than she is versus the same fire.

 

Now, if she survives arriving, she's the bomb for ripping up units and tarpitting them. If she survives.

 

SJ

[Chengar Qordath]

I wouldn't underestimate her ability to do damage on the turn she arrives; an AP1 template weapon with no-scatter Deep Strike placement is nothing to sneeze at, even if it's only wounding MEQ on a 4+. The key is placement; obviously, the Callidus is at her best when picking off isolated units, and a scatterless Deep Strike should give you some options for minimizing enemy LOS on the turn she arrives. Like all the assassins, she's a glass cannon; as long as you can pick your fights to maximize her firepower and minimize the number of attacks coming towards her, she's devastating.

[jeffersonian000]

What part of "I know how to use her correctly, but she's not worth the effort" are you not getting? Yes, she can be devestating. And no, she is not devestating most of the time. She is not a good use of 145pts. A Vindicare is worth his points, as is the Eversor, The Culexus has always been iffy.

 

SJ

[f.desrochers]

I used her regularly in the previous codex; the loss of AWIYE to me is just as problematic as the loss of the charge (or the poor choice of wording "deploys using Deep Strike rule," which restricts charges. That said, until recently she has been in every one of my lists. Scare factor and whatnot; I use her to punch at the heart of the enemy and distract his backfield (IG command squads, clumped units for template goodness, etc). As such, she almost always bites it in the opponent's shooting phase unless she remains locked in combat.

 

Some of the best targets thusfar have been Fearless and Stubborn units. I've redirected her from primary targets to ensure she could distract elsewhere if she was just going to sit out in the open in front of 9 infantry squads and 6+ autocannons. She is a scalpel, and still acts as such, despite the loss of AWIYE, her template no longer auto-glancing (which was a fun way of keeping them from shooting a turn), as well as the charge upon arrival option.

 

I find her pretty much on par with the other assassins, the Vindicare seemingly the current crowd pleaser. I daresay he is a dakka-pred salvo waiting to happen and anecdotally, I haven't heard them lasting too long, particularly if intervening terrain is limited allowing for retibution fire, or against any Eldar army where Wave Serpents ignore his AP rounds. Again, specific tools for specific targets and uses.

 

;francois

[BrotherWasted]

Not only does her template not auto-glance, it actually doesn't affect Vehicles at all now.

[jeffersonian000]

Our best assassin from the last codex is now our worst assassin in this this codex, as GW sometimes likes to do when updating power units from the past. Its tragic, but a fact none the less. I hate that her best use is versus Grots or Tau, especially when MEQ/MSU is the meta of the day.

 

SJ

[Captain Idaho]

Doesn't the Callidus do AP2 damage on the turn it arrives as well as having the option to shoot the Neuro Shredder at the same unit? Doesn't this make the Callidus a great assassin?

[thade]

Odds are remarkably high I'm going to use one of these things a LOT to figure out where precisely it's useful. It's my curse: you tell me it's useless, I'll find a way to make it awesome. (See: thade's obsession with Vanguard.)

[jeffersonian000]

Doesn't the Callidus do AP2 damage on the turn it arrives as well as having the option to shoot the Neuro Shredder at the same unit? Doesn't this make the Callidus a great assassin?

 

Kind of. The d6 S4 AP2 attack upon arrival can be handy, as well as the AP1 flamer. However, if she kills her target unit, she is out in the open to get gunned down. And if she doesn't kill her target, she is out in the open to get gunned down. S4 dose little to vehicles, and the Neural Shedder no longer effects vehicles, so her target selection upon arrival will either be a unit she can't hurt but blocks LoS (ie, a vehicle), or a priority target you are hoping she can wound a bit before being gunned down in the open. No opponent worth playing will assault a Callidus assassin when she can be torrented to death with little effort when CC would mean a tar pit. Its unfair to the Callidus, but the loss of A Word in Your Ear has no real effect on the game, while being forced to deploy via deep strike rules makes her not worth the points you spend on her. If she still had A Word in Your Ear, she'd be worth 145pts. As is, she is not worth taking in a game other than as a filler for points that could have been spent elsewhere for better effect.

 

SJ

[DarkGuard]

Doesn't the Callidus do AP2 damage on the turn it arrives as well as having the option to shoot the Neuro Shredder at the same unit? Doesn't this make the Callidus a great assassin?

 

Kind of. The d6 S4 AP2 attack upon arrival can be handy, as well as the AP1 flamer. However, if she kills her target unit, she is out in the open to get gunned down. And if she doesn't kill her target, she is out in the open to get gunned down.

 

SJ

 

It's this bit I find a bit random. In the open? Of course there will be times where you have little option but to deploy in the open, but as has already been stated the best use of this Assassin is to go after isolated units. Whether they are isolated by your opponent or you is irrelevant, but wiping that one unit out or making it combat ineffective can help keep your Assassin alive. And of course, she can be a handy suicide unit, popping up next to horrible unit and taking them out, for example my Honour Guard wouldn't get a single save and would hate to go up against her hits. Not as reliable as the Vindicare, but arguably faster to get into position than the Eversor, she can nick in, take out targets, and if you get lucky insta-kill something. Just requires different use to ensure she doesn't get into the open unless it's necessary.

[thade]

I'm with DG here. Here are some theoretical applications for the Callidus:

• Lootas on the opposite corner of the table in a ruin, behind like everything else you're engaging.
  
• Long Fangs in a similar position.
  
• Those Eldar sniper/reaper/whatever thingies in a similar position.
  
• You get that idea, probably.
  
• Counter-charge support in the middle of my lines, not out all by herself. One of my units is about to get charged, she comes in next to them and lights up the approaching enemy unit. Now the enemy decides: shoot her and allow my tacticals to continue firing on them OR charge one unit and then receive charge from another.
  

Her lack of Heroic Intervention-equivalent doesn't make her useless; it just alters her use cases.

[Something Wycked]

On top of what DG and Thade have said, I would argue that her lack of an HI rule doesn't make her useless, it only prevents her from being overpowered. If it was as easy as rolling the Reserve dice to see when she comes in and then she automatically gets to do full damage to a unit and charge into assault, there's no skill involved- just point and click and she's made her points back for you.

 

As things stand, her vulnerability forces you to use her with some thought and care. Strategize!

 

As Thade pointed out, force a tough choice on your opponent. Make him choose between taking out the assassin or proceeding to his original target- if she gets killed the turn she comes in, so much the better! Between the damage she caused when arriving and the damage she absorbs in dying she more than earned her points for you- the other friendly unit nearby was left alone for a turn because she was there, keeping its ability to fight higher than it would have been otherwise.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That is a good approach in my opinion. Use her as a counter assault unit. She can still turn a trick or two.

 

G :)

[DarkGuard]

Her lack of Heroic Intervention-equivalent doesn't make her useless; it just alters her use cases.

 

This is the very line said to me by a friend that made me reconsider her as a viable choice, and now if I run C:GKs I'd love to try her out. More subtle than the Eversor, Culexus and the Vindicare, I have a feeling she could work well considering you use her right. As has been said, her use is different, so adapt :).

[jeffersonian000]

Ok, I'll play your silly little game. How do you keep her from getting torrented to death on the opponent's turn immediately after she arrives?

 

SJ

[Hellios]

I'm with DG here. Here are some theoretical applications for the Callidus:

• Lootas on the opposite corner of the table in a ruin, behind like everything else you're engaging.
  
• Long Fangs in a similar position.
  
• Those Eldar sniper/reaper/whatever thingies in a similar position.
  
• You get that idea, probably.
  
• Counter-charge support in the middle of my lines, not out all by herself. One of my units is about to get charged, she comes in next to them and lights up the approaching enemy unit. Now the enemy decides: shoot her and allow my tacticals to continue firing on them OR charge one unit and then receive charge from another.
  

Her lack of Heroic Intervention-equivalent doesn't make her useless; it just alters her use cases.

First we assume the enemy has isolated units... not that uncommon so I'll give that.

 

Now we have two problems... Just because they are isolated doesn't mean they can't be targeted! Now with good placement and depending on the size of the board and the amount and type of terrain used you might be ok! However if you are isolated and in a position where you won't be shot... How long will it take for her to get into a useable position and will she be killed in that time?

 

So what I'm saying is appearing, killing and then being shot is not a lot different from appearing, killing, wandering around and then being shot... Unless you are playing KP and you keep her hidden somewhere.

 

Is she useless? No! Is she in my top 3 choices for her points? No!

 

I don't think the old one was overpowered... It allowed you a guaranteed assault with the phase sword (designed to kill ICs woo... which suits an assassin!) but after than you were still fragile and it wasn't impossible for the character to survive around and he might have a squad with him. I remember playing an old bunker assault mission against the Tau and I brought her up near the bunker (had a squad of fire warriors in it)... flamed it... killed 1 or 2... not very impressive... charged and fluffed my roles! I then got beaten to death by fire warriors!

[thade]

Ok, I'll play your silly little game.

How kind of you.

 

How do you keep her from getting torrented to death on the opponent's turn immediately after she arrives?

In my first (of two) use cases - her vs. an isolated long range squad - the only way to keep her from getting lit up is to land her in the terrain/building/whatever with said isolated Loota team and crush them with her first shot; either wipe them, force them to flee, or at least kill enough of them that the return fire won't vaporize her in the following turn.

 

In my second use case you are forcing a choice on your opponent: she is not alone, she's along side two or more other squads of yours that are confronting an approaching assault. She does her damage and now your opponent basically has to kill her...instead of whatever other unit (say a scoring unit) that they were originally intending to shoot/assault/otherwise get away from an objective.

 

Keeping her from dying is not the goal. Using her to be super annoying is the goal. What do I care if she dies? I'm a freakin Inquisitor.

[jeffersonian000]

How kind of you.

 

How do you keep her from getting torrented to death on the opponent's turn immediately after she arrives?

In my first (of two) use cases - her vs. an isolated long range squad - the only way to keep her from getting lit up is to land her in the terrain/building/whatever with said isolated Loota team and crush them with her first shot; either wipe them, force them to flee, or at least kill enough of them that the return fire won't vaporize her in the following turn.

 

In my second use case you are forcing a choice on your opponent: she is not alone, she's along side two or more other squads of yours that are confronting an approaching assault. She does her damage and now your opponent basically has to kill her...instead of whatever other unit (say a scoring unit) that they were originally intending to shoot/assault/otherwise get away from an objective.

 

Keeping her from dying is not the goal. Using her to be super annoying is the goal. What do I care if she dies? I'm a freakin Inquisitor.

 

No, sir! How kind of you!

 

First case: there is no garauntee she will kill anything upon arrival and her one shooting phase (d6 S4 attacks + S8 template vs LD means a very low wound rate versus priority targets). It was theory-crafted when the rules change was first mentioned that we could use her arrival as a "bomb" attack followed by running into cover or if in cover simply going to ground. Again you have to deal with her 4++/3+ cover and 6+ FNP to let her survive until she can assualt. The old rules allowed her to arrive, charge, tar pit, hit-and-run out of combat at the start her next turn followed by a new charge, rinse and repeat as long as she lives (which averaged out to 2-3 turns if support was nearby, 1-2 turns if not). Current rules has her arrive/suicide or arrive/hide/shot to death.

 

Second case: if your opponent is running MSU, they will not need to divert any significant fire power to torrent her to death, since at best she will have 3+ cover save from going to ground, and at worst a 4++ save if caught in the open. Her 6+ FNP is a "Hail Mary" save, and not worth mentioning. She only needs to fail 2 saves and she is toast. Versus a single IC? When was the last time you saw an un-attached IC on turns 2 or 3 that didn't have the ability to simply ignore her pathetic initial attacks? Versus a heavy weapons unit? Okay, they lose 1 turn of fire to turn her into a smear, a turn I might add that you probably use to position your other units so as to ignore the heavy weapons unit in question, which equats to no real advantage. She is good against Grots and Tau, but really, do you worry about a single unit of Grots or Tau to blow 145pts tar piting them for 1 turn?

 

Third: keeping her alive is not the goal, but getting enough kills/distraction out of her to make her worth spending 145pts on her instead of a more useful unit is. If she is only an unreliable bomb attack than might on a very slim chance tar pit an out of way unit you could have ignored anyway, then I guess she worked for you, cool beans.

 

Fourth: please feel free to math-hammer her versus any common target and see if she's up to snuff compared to any of our other 145pt elite options. I'd like to see your math on her usefulness.

 

SJ

[thade]

This might alarm you, but I don't base my decisions for what I field on math. (It alarms me; I do math and statistics for a living.) 1v1 in a vacuum I won't dispute she seems significantly under-powered. That doesn't scream "useless" to me. It screams "she's not designed for 1v1 in a vacuum".

 

You assume she's designed poorly. Based on your assumption, analysis is closed.

 

I assume that there is something I'm missing about her design. Based on my assumption, there's work to be done.

[jeffersonian000]

Nicely worded, but that's a deflect and not an answer. I've supported my responses to the OP. No one else that has disagreed with my statements have posted a counter, just general statements on use. The OP asked if she was useful, and I find that she is not based on my stated reasons. Others have stated that she is useful, yet have not provided reasons why they feel as such.

 

So please, enlighten us as to how this specific 145pt unit is useful to your army/strategy/playstyle. I really want to know.

 

SJ

[BrotherWasted]

She's very much useless because:

 

A: She arrives via Deep Strike. No, she cannot simply just assault the unit she has appeared in because you can't do that after Deep Striking, even though she has Fleet. It's completely counter intuitive.

B: Neural Shredder is resolved versus an enemy's leadership. Against the majority LD of MEQ units, that's usually LD8, so you wound on 4+. It also doesn't work on vehicles, period. Why bother?

C: She can't actually do....anything, other than fire the template and wait for retaliation.