Callidus assassin...useful?

[Something Wycked]

No one else that has disagreed with my statements have posted a counter, just general statements on use. The OP asked if she was useful, and I find that she is not based on my stated reasons. Others have stated that she is useful, yet have not provided reasons why they feel as such.

 

So please, enlighten us as to how this specific 145pt unit is useful to your army/strategy/playstyle. I really want to know.

 

SJ

General statements on use are counters to your statements; your statements are "she is useless!" and any delineation of her use is a counter.

 

Is she the most efficient use of 145 points? Probably not. Does she have a place in the right army list? Absolutely.

 

I seem to be catching some thade... I suddenly want to include her in my GK lists :D

[thade]

Nicely worded, but that's a deflect and not an answer. I've supported my responses to the OP. No one else that has disagreed with my statements have posted a counter, just general statements on use. The OP asked if she was useful, and I find that she is not based on my stated reasons. Others have stated that she is useful, yet have not provided reasons why they feel as such.

 

So please, enlighten us as to how this specific 145pt unit is useful to your army/strategy/playstyle. I really want to know.

 

SJ

It wasn't a deflection; it was an honest answer. Of course, obsession with mathhammer means that if mathhammer isn't involved in a response, it's always deflection, isn't it? It's not even a valid answer unless numbers are present. Honestly, I did suspect only mathhammer would satisfy you, so on my train ride home I thought long and hard about how precisely to explain to you what value this model might have. Here is the summary: this will be too long to summarize; if you don't read it, just trust you got mathhammered out of the ring. Like, really, really, really hard. (Okay, maybe one less "really".) Anyway, per your request...

 

Here's my thesis: mathhammer is tremendously misleading. It's a crime really how something which is a useful tool has be completely blown out of proportion to it's real value...so much so that it actually interferes with meaningful analysis. Let's use it the bad way and then what I feel is the good way.

 

Mathhammerz!!

 

Assassin vs Tactical Marine squad. Let's say the tac squad is a typical mathhammery-style and it's 10-strong and got a melta gun and a ML in it. For sake of argument, let's say that it doesn't move in it's next turn (so the ML can fire).

 

Assassin lands and does d6 S4 AP2 hits. For the purposes of our analysis, let's make things suck for her and assume she rolls a 2. (2 dead bolter marines.) Now Shooting Phase comes along and she gets to use her Template attack; since you DS her you're going to have a good chance at maximizing the number of hit models, but let's say they're positioned in such a way that you can't hit more than half of the remaining squad, which is 4 marines. S8 vs Ld8 needs 4s, 50% will wound at AP1. (Now up to 4 dead bolter marines.)

 

The marines on their turn return fire: there's a 4/6 * 2/6 (0.22) chance that the Melta gun hits and the ML doesn't hit; the same chance that the ML hits and the Melta does not (0.22), and a 4/6*4/6 chance they both hit (0.44). So that's 44% chance of at least one instant death wound and a 44% chance that she's got two instant death wounds to worry about. 88% chance there's at least one instant death wound to save. Not to mention the whole rest of the squad thing...8 rapid fire shots, let's throw the marines another bone and assume 6 hit; 4s to wound, safe to expect 3...but let's say 4 because I'm trying out this whole I-Hate-The-Callidus scene that everyone's all talking about. It's all the rage.

 

She now has to save that at-least-one-instant death wound (50% chance) and possibly two instant death wounds (25% chance she survives, 75% chance she's vaporized) and if she can cut those, she's got to save at least three of those four wounds...the chance that she fails three saves...well, I think you don't need me to calc out those chances, right? I mean, you're already assuming she's going to die a horrible death and by the look of these numbers, that's a fact.

 

BUT WAIT

 

Yep. We fell for it. We fell for the mathhammer trap. What is the trap? Well, it's not that the numbers are lying; they certainly aren't. Unless she gets lucky and tears that squad apart with her first two shots, she's going to get vaporized. Also there's like the ephemeral but omnipresent other lascannon that I'm sure you'll readily claim is somewhere on the board with its perfect line of sight to her. So yea, vaporized assassin. The trap is that she is not alone. This vacuum I constructed for the numeric analysis is rare. It's like in physics with that frictionless, atmosphere-free environment we do all of our mechanics in. They exist, sure, but they just are not very easy to come by. So let's revisit this analysis with a more realistic scenario.

 

Here's the kicker early: what we learned from that numeric analysis is a worse-than-expected outcome for her kill-count versus MEQ. I can safely expect her to waste at least four marines unless my dice are VERY unkind. (For the record, my dice are seldom unkind to me.)

 

Outside of the vacuum.

 

This is a story. It is constructed to be specific, but will become much less specific during the discussion later. If you give up now, just refer to the summary at the top.

 

My opponent has a unit of tacticals situated on an objective, huddled behind their smoldering Rhino (which I managed to Wreck but not Kaboom a turn before). He's got say another tactical squad maybe 14" away, deeper into his deployment zone, which has line of sight to that tac squad and has been taking lascannon pot shots at the Razorback my nearest PAGK squad is in (which is now Immobilized but can still shoot). Long story short, there are other units on the table for both of us, but the only ones that aren't otherwise engaged are his two tactical squads and my single PAGK squad.

 

His tac squad is full at 10 with a melta gun and a ML, hiding behind the Rhino so my Razorback can't hose them with psy-ammo. My GK will have to go out and get them if they want them, exposing themselves to cross-field fire and at only six-strong, charging a tactical squad isn't really a sure thing (to say the least). I'm close enough to pile them out and approach, but I probably won't make charge range. I will get into LOS though for some storm bolter shooting.

 

My turn and I roll for Reserves and hey, a Callidus is ready to enter. This now changes this scenario. I land her such that my enemy's dead Rhino is between her and that lascannon as best I can, and I slam the nearby unit with her. Remember, bad day: she's gonna kill four marines.

 

NOW my squad of six GK aren't out-numbered any more; they climb out and run over, shooting her tacticals. Wouldn't you know it, I was right: they can't reach assault range. They still kill a marine or two. Let's say however they have a spectacular fail shooting and kill zero marines. The Callidus does her part though and they are in fact down to six.

 

MY OPPONENT NOW HAS A CHOICE. The lascannon can't see the Callidus, but it can see my PAGK...so I might lose one. The nearby squad can:

• Light up the Callidus, very likely killing her...then receive a devastating charge from the PAGK who will be in a good position to keep this point.
  
• Light up the PAGK squad and risk a violent death from the Callidus.
  
• Attempt to flee and risk a getting chased down and suffering a violent death from the Callidus.
  

You know what's cool about those three choices? They all benefit me. Chances are good at least one of my PAGK models will still be standing if my opponent chooses to shoot them. Chances are far better for me that they'll still be standing given the other two. The arrival of the Callidus was game-changing.

 

Sound unlikely? That's funny, because it happens to me pretty often. Only instead of Callidus it's Vanguard. Or an assault squad leaping in off of my table edge. Or any other unit that can get there because this game is not a vacuum. Mathhammer is good because I have a fair estimate as to how many MEQ my Callidus, my PAGK squad, or my Vanguard combat squad can each kill by themselves; add them up and that's more dead marines. Mathhammer is bad because you might think "this singular unit is terrible because it can't eat this other unit 1v1". It's not just wrong. It's a trap!

 

You might be like "Yeah, but what about this other random unit that completely undoes this example of yours?" We could of course go back and forth like that, but really that's the game. It's not so simple as 1v1. Isn't that why we like it?

[BrotherWasted]

I don't really see the choice that has to be made.

 

Kill the Callidus. Even if she didn't come onto the table that turn, your 6 GKs could still very well have wiped out the Tactical Squad anyway with their own shooting and a charge.

[Something Wycked]

I don't really see the choice that has to be made.

 

Kill the Callidus.

Heh... You don't see the choice, but you still made... the choice.

 

And that's fine- the Tacticals have a try at killing the Callidus and they most likely succeed. And then they die a horrible, messy death to the PAGK, who otherwise would have been stuck not doing anything.

 

That's easily worth her points. As thade said- "game changing".

[thade]

I don't really see the choice that has to be made.

 

Kill the Callidus. Even if she didn't come onto the table that turn, your 6 GKs could still very well have wiped out the Tactical Squad anyway with their own shooting and a charge.

Could have wiped out had they been able to make the charge upon exiting the Razorback. In my contrived example, they needed two turns to get close enough for an Assault. That would've exposed them to that tac squad's fire power and I'd have likely lost a lot more than they would have to my shooting.

 

So sure...they kill the Callidus. I take that position. Now that wayward Tac squad has to slog over to take it back, or my opponent will need to divert other forces over to that part of the table which was previously stalemated.

 

EDIT: Actually, were I in my opponent's shoes? I would have charged the GK in a hope to overwhelm and kill that squad; or at least shot them up in hopes of killing them. I know I'm going to lose my own scoring squad now...least I can do is return the favor. Better nobody has that point than my opponent.

[jeffersonian000]

No one else that has disagreed with my statements have posted a counter, just general statements on use. The OP asked if she was useful, and I find that she is not based on my stated reasons. Others have stated that she is useful, yet have not provided reasons why they feel as such.

 

So please, enlighten us as to how this specific 145pt unit is useful to your army/strategy/playstyle. I really want to know.

 

SJ

General statements on use are counters to your statements; your statements are "she is useless!" and any delineation of her use is a counter.

 

Is she the most efficient use of 145 points? Probably not. Does she have a place in the right army list? Absolutely.

 

I seem to be catching some thade... I suddenly want to include her in my GK lists :blush:

 

 

Doesn't the Callidus do AP2 damage on the turn it arrives as well as having the option to shoot the Neuro Shredder at the same unit? Doesn't this make the Callidus a great assassin?

 

Kind of. The d6 S4 AP2 attack upon arrival can be handy, as well as the AP1 flamer. However, if she kills her target unit, she is out in the open to get gunned down. And if she doesn't kill her target, she is out in the open to get gunned down. S4 dose little to vehicles, and the Neural Shedder no longer effects vehicles, so her target selection upon arrival will either be a unit she can't hurt but blocks LoS (ie, a vehicle), or a priority target you are hoping she can wound a bit before being gunned down in the open. No opponent worth playing will assault a Callidus assassin when she can be torrented to death with little effort when CC would mean a tar pit. Its unfair to the Callidus, but the loss of A Word in Your Ear has no real effect on the game, while being forced to deploy via deep strike rules makes her not worth the points you spend on her. If she still had A Word in Your Ear, she'd be worth 145pts. As is, she is not worth taking in a game other than as a filler for points that could have been spent elsewhere for better effect.

 

SJ

 

SJ

[DarkGuard]

Ok, I'll play your silly little game. How do you keep her from getting torrented to death on the opponent's turn immediately after she arrives?

 

SJ

 

I'll play the silly little game. On the tabletop, which is the only way to to solve this. Yes we can sit around all day discussing things and using Mathhammer and coming up with scenarios, in the end they won't mean anything when the terrain's out, the armies are deployed, you're opponent's using something a little different and you're rolling 1s and 2s unless it's a morale test.

 

The OP asked if she was useful. She is. Is she useful for the OP? Perhaps. Is she useful for you? Apparently no, but that doesn't she isn't useful for other people.

[uberschveinen]

If the Callidus had first-turn charges it would be a genuinely useful option at its point cost. The insta-hit attacks, followed by high-order power weapon attacks, would make it eminently suited to handle concentrated expensive units. But, since it can't, it does very little of worth. Most of the points cost you pay for its abilities as equipment are wasted, simply because you're just not going to ever charge. If the cost was reflective of the usefulness of a suicide-bomb attack and not an Assassin, then it would be useful. I was particularly put out that the recent FAQ didn't change this, because it just seems so OBVIOUS that she should be able to charge first turn.

[Notanoob]

If the Callidus had first-turn charges it would be a genuinely useful option at its point cost. The insta-hit attacks, followed by high-order power weapon attacks, would make it eminently suited to handle concentrated expensive units. But, since it can't, it does very little of worth. Most of the points cost you pay for its abilities as equipment are wasted, simply because you're just not going to ever charge. If the cost was reflective of the usefulness of a suicide-bomb attack and not an Assassin, then it would be useful. I was particularly put out that the recent FAQ didn't change this, because it just seems so OBVIOUS that she should be able to charge first turn.

The D6 shots at the unit after she deep-strikes just represents that she was there the whole time and has just revealed herself, because GW didn't want to give assault out of deep strike to anybody, despite the fact that it would make more sense for her to just be engaged in CC. Chances are she would lose the auto-hit stuff.

 

She reminds me of the Lictor. Dumb deployment with bad (or a lack of useful) special rules and not being very durable put her clearly into the bad category. People who love her will desperately attempt to find a use for her and trumpet every success as a reason to take her, but the Callidus assassin is just not worth the effort.

[thade]

You guys coming in late and talking about her like she's too nerfed to be cool should read my late-game posts up there... :P

[jeffersonian000]

The issue Thade, is that your posts don't change the fact that while the Callidus was the best assassin in the 3rd ed codex, she is the worst assassin in the current 5th ed codex. Is she useful? Not really. Is she useful to you? Apparently. Would she be useful to the OP? Probably not.

 

The Callidus is the Psilencer of the assassins - just not worth it outside of very specific circumstances, and even then there are better options.

 

SJ

[nurglez]

Personally, I dont think any of the assassin's are much use, the best being the vindicare, but he still has his issues.

 

The callidus can be useful, of that I am sure. However it may require some lateral thinking, and may be useful in ways different to how she was before. Using her like an expensive marbo seems to be the wrong tactic, but it also seems to be the only tactic. Best Idea is to keep her until as late as possible and to use her to distract/destroy certain squads.

[thade]

Here I was thinking your silence was you conceding. ^_^ Silly me.

 

The issue Thade, is that your posts don't change the fact that while the Callidus was the best assassin in the 3rd ed codex, she is the worst assassin in the current 5th ed codex.

This is opinion; it is not fact. You ventured numbers. I ventured numbers (the same ones really) and examples. We disagree, that's all that's clear. Personally I think the Eversor is the "worst" one as the poor guy has to slog to get anywhere. (Don't get me wrong. I will definitely try him out.)

 

When you tried to use her in the several games you did, did you try to use her 3rd edition style? If that's the case, I think we shouldn't be surprised that she failed; you ran the numbers yourself: she's not going to wipe a unit and will take too much return fire if she's off on her own. Have you tried her as a pinch-hitter support model as I suggested? She's going to kill a handful of MEQ when she touches down, and is a 25mm base that's guaranteed not to scatter. Shouldn't be too hard to get her somewhere that only her quarry can return fire at her. Again, I do it all the time with other units and they aren't nearly as precise as she is with their arrival. Psychic Communion + no scatter sounds good to me. She may kill enough of the squad she shoots that she'll survive, or that squad might get charged by my other unit (the one she jumped in to help) so she won't get shot at. I see uses for her. I see that you don't.

 

Very often there are skirmishes on the table where two small detachments from each force are evenly matched. It's these fights where the appearance of the Callidus can turn the tide. That's my thinking.

 

I'm cool agreeing to disagree. <3

[jeffersonian000]

And again, you seem to be struggling to find a use for her as a counter my reasons why I think she is useless. Yes, I have used the Callidus in 5th as a 5th ed unit with 5th ed rules in a 5th army using 5th ed tactics ... she still sucks. I don't need a switch hitter or a counter assaulter or a suicide boom. I need a solid unit that can used flexibly and reliably, something that the current version of the Callidus can no longer do. She has to appear within 3" of a targets enemy unit, and she cannot assault the turn she arrives which leaves very little in the way of choices available upon arrival. Less choices, less useful. Lower survivability, less useful. Random appearance, less useful. Weak weapon options, less useful. Strong CC weapons that never get into CC, less useful.

 

Its nice to know that you can make her work for your army build and playstyle. I hear a lot of people get good results from Crowe in a non-Purifier spam list.

 

SJ

[Brother Valerius]

And again, you seem to be struggling to find a use for her as a counter my reasons why I think she is useless. Yes, I have used the Callidus in 5th as a 5th ed unit with 5th ed rules in a 5th army using 5th ed tactics ... she still sucks. I don't need a switch hitter or a counter assaulter or a suicide boom. I need a solid unit that can used flexibly and reliably, something that the current version of the Callidus can no longer do. She has to appear within 3" of a targets enemy unit, and she cannot assault the turn she arrives which leaves very little in the way of choices available upon arrival. Less choices, less useful. Lower survivability, less useful. Random appearance, less useful. Weak weapon options, less useful. Strong CC weapons that never get into CC, less useful.

 

Its nice to know that you can make her work for your army build and playstyle. I hear a lot of people get good results from Crowe in a non-Purifier spam list.

 

SJ

 

So she's not useful for you. She is useful to others, however, so she is not useless. QED.

 

Thade is absolutely right. Claiming that the unit is useless based on sheer statistical analysis is naive. Not all use is measured in a vacuum, usefulness can be heightened or lessened based upon the situation. I appreciate your desire to break things down into black-and-white terms... that's how my brain is wired, and I always strive to eliminate the "it depends" factors when I analyze things. But within the context of Warhammer 40k, this is not possible. There are too many variables, you can't just hold them all to be equal. They almost never will be.

[thade]

And again, you seem to be struggling to find a use for her as a counter my reasons why I think she is useless.

I'm not struggling. You didn't read my massive wall of text, huh? I mean, it was big; in a forum I guess I was asking for tl;dr. Here's a very poor summary.

 

You say she's useless because she doesn't work like she did in 3rd Ed. I found a new use case for her. There is my counter. You either didn't see it, don't understand it, or don't accept it. I'm not really clear which of those it is. I get that you dislike her; given that you compare her constantly to her former version, I wonder if you're so jaded by the changes to her that you refuse to see her new applications?

 

I don't need a switch hitter or a counter assaulter or a suicide boom.

Those are her three roles, as I asserted in my tl;dr. I prefer the first two. :P She's a bit costly to suicide her; reminds me what people typically use (and flame) Vanguard for. It's nice that she can land where I need her and cripple or wipe a unit. Something else I haven't mentioned because people would probably just assert Eversor is better for it, but you could always slog her if you find yourself in a game (either due to their list, deployment, or table layout) that DSing her will just plain not work. You still have the option though.

 

I need a solid unit that can used flexibly and reliably, something that the current version of the Callidus can no longer do.

So you want a generalist unit? There are lots of those. Strike Squads, Purifiers, and Paladins are probably what you're into; they're good all arounders and more durable than she is (as they can take losses...she can't).

 

She has to appear within 3" of a targets enemy unit, and she cannot assault the turn she arrives which leaves very little in the way of choices available upon arrival. Less choices, less useful. Lower survivability, less useful. Random appearance, less useful. Weak weapon options, less useful. Strong CC weapons that never get into CC, less useful.

I read this and it convinces me you either skimmed or completely skipped my large post. That makes this less of a conversation. You tell me repeatedly that I'm not responding to you; well here you are, not responding to me. She lands, she does her damage, she forces a choice on my opponent. My opponent really has to shoot her, right? Or she'll mess him up. However he may instead elect to try and finish off or break my scoring unit, so that instead of him losing the point to me, nobody gets it (she can't score, after all). All of this I went over in my tl;dr.

 

Its nice to know that you can make her work for your army build and playstyle. I hear a lot of people get good results from Crowe in a non-Purifier spam list.

I have no experience with Crowe, but I'll take your word on it.

[jeffersonian000]

I read your big wall of text, which proved only that you find her useful to you by using the same data I used to find that she is not useful to me. Bully for you. All I see is that if my opponent fields a Callidus against me, I'll just shake their hand, thank them for playing a fluffy list, and try really hard not the laugh out loud when the Callidus finally appears and does absolutely nothing useful. I'm happy your mileage veries from mine. Go you!

 

SJ

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I will definitely give her a try.

 

G :P

[brianjc]

And again, you seem to be struggling to find a use for her as a counter my reasons why I think she is useless. Yes, I have used the Callidus in 5th as a 5th ed unit with 5th ed rules in a 5th army using 5th ed tactics ... she still sucks. I don't need a switch hitter or a counter assaulter or a suicide boom. I need a solid unit that can used flexibly and reliably, something that the current version of the Callidus can no longer do. She has to appear within 3" of a targets enemy unit, and she cannot assault the turn she arrives which leaves very little in the way of choices available upon arrival. Less choices, less useful. Lower survivability, less useful. Random appearance, less useful. Weak weapon options, less useful. Strong CC weapons that never get into CC, less useful.

 

Its nice to know that you can make her work for your army build and playstyle. I hear a lot of people get good results from Crowe in a non-Purifier spam list.

 

SJ

 

So she's not useful for you. She is useful to others, however, so she is not useless. QED.

 

Thade is absolutely right. Claiming that the unit is useless based on sheer statistical analysis is naive. Not all use is measured in a vacuum, usefulness can be heightened or lessened based upon the situation. I appreciate your desire to break things down into black-and-white terms... that's how my brain is wired, and I always strive to eliminate the "it depends" factors when I analyze things. But within the context of Warhammer 40k, this is not possible. There are too many variables, you can't just hold them all to be equal. They almost never will be.

 

Yes, but isn't claiming that she's useful with hypothetical unit placement just as naive? We can create scenarios all day showing why unit A will open a can of make believe chunky flavored death on unit B. And I can get a royal flush if I stack the deck as well.

 

Is the Callidus assassin useless? Absolutely not. It has an ability to take out tightly packed rear guard units that could be a potential annoyance to your army. The problem is other units can do the same thing and end up surviving the 1st round of combat. I think everyone can agree that the loss of the 3rd edition perks significantly nerfed her while the unlimited special ammo for the vindicare dramatically increased its killing potential. For me that's the nail in the coffin. It's not so much that she's useless rather she just isn't a worthwhile allocation of points.

[Hellios]

I also guess it depends on how you define useful... Is doing anything useful or do you at least need to consistently make your points back with that unit or get some kind of additional bonus, for examples rhinos tend to kill little but many people would say they are very useful. Then we have to look at what else we can do for the points available .

 

I would say by the do something definition, nothing in the game except some out of date war gear is really useless. So I guess this becomes a matter of where on the scale of 1-10 do we place the Callidus (1 being as useful as a grot's fart and 10 being game winning by herself)?

[jeffersonian000]

In a scale of 1 to 10, I'd place her firmly as a 4. She is a good unit for 145pts; too bad there are far better options for the same role.

 

SJ

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

All of the assassins have better stats now. I had a Vindicare get charged by infiltrating genestealers and swept them. It'd obviously not something I'd ever count happening again. To be honest I don't see a lot of players using any of the assassins.

 

G :down:

[brianjc]

All of the assassins have better stats now. I had a Vindicare get charged by infiltrating genestealers and swept them. It'd obviously not something I'd ever count happening again. To be honest I don't see a lot of players using any of the assassins.

 

G ;)

 

 

I see the Vindicare being used more than the rest due to the way it meshes with the rest of the army. 24 inch threat range of psycannons and stormbolters benefits from the 36 inch range of the exitus and the 48 inch range of the psi rifle dreads. Plus you can drop it in a rhino and allow it to shoot out the top with PAGK. AV11 seems pretty nice compared to a 4+ invul. save.

[thade]

Plus you can drop it in a rhino and allow it to shoot out the top with PAGK. AV11 seems pretty nice compared to a 4+ invul. save.

Um...Assassins do not have the IC rule, so they can't embark into a Rhino along with any other models (ICs cannot join them either as they are a unit that always consists of one model).

 

I don't disagree; AV11's nice against small arms fire, but that's why we take Rhinos at all. :)

[thade]

Yes, but isn't claiming that she's useful with hypothetical unit placement just as naive? We can create scenarios all day showing why unit A will open a can of make believe chunky flavored death on unit B. And I can get a royal flush if I stack the deck as well.

These are very different things. A royal flush is extremely rare (roughly one in 650,000); the chances that there will be a chunk of your army more or less evenly matched with a chunk of their army (by "chunk" I mean 1-3 units each side, but could be more) are squared off while the other chunks of the armies are busying themselves killing one another...this happens all the time. A unit that can unerringly arrive and kill a half of a tac squad in that conflict could easily tip the fight there in your favor. My example above wasn't meant to be exhaustive; it was meant to be representative of something that's pretty common. Perhaps I wasn't clear about that.