Callidus assassin...useful?

[brianjc]

Plus you can drop it in a rhino and allow it to shoot out the top with PAGK. AV11 seems pretty nice compared to a 4+ invul. save.

Um...Assassins do not have the IC rule, so they can't embark into a Rhino along with any other models (ICs cannot join them either as they are a unit that always consists of one model).

 

I don't disagree; AV11's nice against small arms fire, but that's why we take Rhinos at all. :)

 

 

Maybe I'm wrong here but page 52 of the GK codex shows them as Unit Type: Infantry (character)

 

Page 66 of the 5th edition rule book states that "A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry), up to a total of models equal to the vehicle's transport capacity."

 

As far as the independent character joining the PAGK squad I think I'm reading that a bit differently as well. Page 48 states in the 5th edition rule book "Independent characters are allowed to join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons and units that always consist of a single model" The assassin is the single model here, not the unit it's joining. PAGK are Unit Type: Infantry.

 

If I'm wrong in any way please let me know. I'm newer to the hobby in general.

[jeffersonian000]

The point is that only IC can join with units, so you may not join an Assassin to a PAGK squad as Assassin's are not IC. You can still embark the Assassin into a Rhino after the game starts, but that's a different issue.

 

SJ

[BrotherWasted]

Assassins are a character, yes. They are not, however, an Independant Character (see any IC who actually has the rule "Independant Character"). They may not join units, and are a unit size of 1. Assassins fall into the same boat as Castellan Crowe; they may not join units, and they must hijack someone's transport if they want a ride.

[brianjc]

Bah, I did miss that part. Thanks!

[Something Wycked]

She is a good unit for 145pts; too bad there are far better options for the same role.

First off, thank you for finally, finally acknowledging that she isn't useless. We're making progress ;)

 

Secondly, what else can you put in the same role? I really don't see anything that fits in her role.

 

The only other unit in the entire codex that arrives by Deep Strike without scattering is Mordrak and his Knights, and all they have is NFWs and Storm Bolters; a much different loadout and purpose than the Callidus. Mordrak and his boys are also guaranteed to come in on the first turn, while she benefits from arriving after the battle has developed a bit to avoid a tightly grouped enemy army still in its deployment zone that can bring multiple units to bear against her.

 

No other unit has an AP1 flamer template. No other unit has a weapon that automatically inflicts Instant Death (NFW's don't count, they need to be activated.)

 

She's in a class all her own.

[thade]

She is a good unit for 145pts; too bad there are far better options for the same role.

First off, thank you for finally, finally acknowledging that she isn't useless. We're making progress ;)

I lol'd. Bravo for progress. :P

[jeffersonian000]

Wow, you guys lag quite a bit! I posted that days ago and still had to put up with you beating on me over it. As to role, she is an elite, and therefore she is competeting with other elites for a slot. The best unit for her slot and points is the Vindicare, then I'd go with a Techmarine if short on points or a Ven Dread if long on points if I just had to burn an elite slot. If its just points, then a Psyfleman would be a better choice as it will last longer, kill more things, and cost less.

 

SJ

[Something Wycked]

I was a bit busy over the weekend with my gf, and forum time is wasted time when she's around :P

 

So what you really meant by "role" was "FOC slot", eh? Fair enough, the other choices for the Elite slot are generally better for most situations.

 

But the point remains that for her role (not the FOC slot) she is unique.

 

And useful. ^_^

[jeffersonian000]

If by "role" you mean "suicide bomb", then I guess you are right.

 

SJ

[Something Wycked]

If that's the only way you can envision to use her, sure. Your loss. ^_^

[jeffersonian000]

Wow! I thought you read these threads before posting, Something Wycked. I've been using a Callidus in my army lists for a number of years, so I know what it is that I post. As of the current editon of the GK codex, the Callidus is sub-par and does not live up to her 3rd ed crappy stats, and most definitely does not reach a shadow of her destructiveness in 2nd ed. I answered the OP that I felt the Callidus was not worth their time and effort to field in a list, because I have spent my time and effort to try to get her to work in a reliable way in my army lists. This thread fully details others' arguments with my view over the use of the Callidus, and I applaud their luck in using her as a shock unit to disrupt their opponents' plans over which unit to target first. Kudos to them. I personally don't feel like using a 145pt unit as a speed bump when another 145pt unit can be used to plink any at enemy nasties while being the subject of every long-range attack in my opponent's arsenal, but that's just me. I guess everyone's mileage will very, and leave it at that.

 

SJ

[thade]

Her use cases have dramatically changed with this new edition version of her, that's for certain. It might be easier for those of us who haven't used her for years before now to see this new version as useful as we needn't miss the way the old one worked.

[Something Wycked]

Wow! I thought you read these threads before posting, Something Wycked.

That, right there, was unnecessary. You know damn well I've read all the posts- unless you've forgotten some of my earlier ones in this thread?

 

As of the current editon of the GK codex, the Callidus is sub-par and does not live up to her 3rd ed crappy stats, and most definitely does not reach a shadow of her destructiveness in 2nd ed. [snip] I personally don't feel like using a 145pt unit as a speed bump [snip]

This is the problem. You used her regularly in her over-powered original state. You want to keep using her the same way, but using her the same way results in her being a "suicide bomb" or "speed bump". Your tactics with regards to the Callidus need to change if you want to keep using her. If you don't want to use her in a different way, then I guess she is useless... for you.

 

As I've stated in earlier posts: she requires more finesse to use appropriately now. No longer can you simply roll for reserves and, with no skill or effort other than including her in your list, assault a unit automatically.

 

I know, it sucks when your army gets a nerf... When our army gets a nerf. With that ability of hers removed, we have not a single model that can arrive from Deep Strike and assault- not even a Vanguard Veteran equivalent.

 

Just because she works differently now, and isn't so over the top, does not mean she isn't an effective tool in her role. Just don't use her as a suicide bomber or a speed bump, and she'll do better for you.

[thade]

With that ability of hers removed, we have not a single model that can arrive from Deep Strike and assault- not even a Vanguard Veteran equivalent.

It's ironic, but I very, very, very seldom use Vanguard's Heroic Intervention ability, as it too easily translates to them getting suicide-bombed; they're too expensive to drop somewhere and sick on a lone unit. They excel at dropping in and charging an already engaged unit; they will tear it to pieces. Even with DoA it's hard to predict correctly though, so very often I stick them sans-packs into a LR. I'm not about taking unnecessary risks or forfeiting any points I don't have to if I can help it. It's the fledgling water warrior within.

[uberschveinen]

The earlier version was scarcely overpowered. This version is just not deserving of a place in any list save the superspecialised. I don't know what niche it is you're using your sin, but having a niche is not actually a qualification. Everything has a niche, no matter how bad, but exactly how thin your niche is is very determinative of whether or not it's worth a damn. Daemonhosts are better than the other Henchmen in some extremely narrow circumstances, but that won't change them being just bad.

[jeffersonian000]

As I've stated in earlier posts: she requires more finesse to use appropriately now. No longer can you simply roll for reserves and, with no skill or effort other than including her in your list, assault a unit automatically.

 

Now that was truly uncalled for.

 

As to your suggestion that my expectations are influenced by previous editions ... yes, you do have a point there. There are uses that I just cannot have the current Callidus do, tactics that are now gone, and strategies that are best left to other units. However, the strategies and tactics mentioned in support of her use are still ones I find sub-par and not worth the expenditure of points. Or more specifically, I find the suggested uses mentioned for her to be too restictive when planning out an army that can take on any other army in a tournament setting. But like I stated, that's most likely my baggage from previous editions. Not everyone plans their army lists around not knowing what they will be facing.

 

Good luck with your Callidus. And best wishes.

 

SJ

[DantonTH]

Is this correct;

 

...Callidus CAN Masquarade...

Polymorphine ALLOWS the Callidus to...

When Callidus Assassin Arrives from reserves... (but nothing forces it to start from there?)

 

So, in the old codex callidus had "Callidus assassin is always placed in reserve...", and i don't see same wording or ruling here so I can

start the game with callidus inside my Land raider for example? Right?

[thade]

@DantonTH: Sure, she can start emnarked on you Land Raider...all alone. ;) No IC rule and a single model unit means she can't be joined be anyone.

 

@uber: As for the "niche" use...I get that sometimes people post without reading threads, and then make assumptions and just go with those. "Supporting other units" is not a niche use. The reason Vanguard's ability is called "Heroic Intervention" is that it allows them to heroically intervene in an in-progress assault or one that is about to happen...not because they gallantly and stupidly drop all alone behind an army and suicide themselves on some snipers.

 

Despite her lack of HI, the Calidus can still pinch hint, hitting the table where you need a distraction or some extra firepower. As I said previously, she drops in with your units and not off by herself.

 

Even with her former incarnation I still would've used her the way I described above. (Go read it before critiquing it.)

 

EDIT: Clarification.

[DantonTH]

Ok. Starting the game on board and without "Always placed in reserve" was what I was asking not any Assault related things.

[thade]

Part of that response was meant for you; the rest of it for another poster (really, any other posters who want to contribute to the thread but for some reason don't want to read the preceding three pages).

[greatcrusade08]

As I've stated in earlier posts: she requires more finesse to use appropriately now. No longer can you simply roll for reserves and, with no skill or effort other than including her in your list, assault a unit automatically.

 

Now that was truly uncalled for.

 

ive been watching this thread for a day or so, and have hesitated to respond, as i figured it would turn into a debate on the nature of the game rather than the unit itself.

the comment above by something wycked was IMO not meant as rudeness, i believe your seeing an insult where none was intended, thats supported by the man himself.

to date to my knowledge he has shown no degree of hostility or personal attacks against anyone (bar some sarcasm) and is IMO above such things.

 

in this case i believe what hes trying to say is that in the previous edition, she was very easy to use becuase she could assault on the turn she arrived, it required little thought to place her on the board shoot and charge.

in this edition things are different and as stated a few times, the decision making behind her use is far more complex.

 

but that doesnt inherantly mean shes not worth taking.. and its something that has been discussed alot recently. People will choose units that are 'easy' decisions, and then tell themselves these units are the most competative units available, this often gets promulgated by the internet itself with many such people banding together behind thier beliefs.

and interwebz 'meta' is born.

with space marines its the hammenators, with space wolves its the long fangs with spammed MLs (oh yes i went there, let the flamestorm commence).. every army has its celebrated units, but people often overlook units becuase they look at them in a vaccuum.

im sure many people still think space marine scouts are rubbish, i know celebrated members of online forums such as kirby from 3++ still hold them in disdain.. does that mean they cant be effective, or does it mean people have looked at them and pushed them to one side without giving it any further thought?

what it tells me is that no matter how 'good' you are and how big your reputation, no one man holds all knowledge, and sometimes people get stuff wrong.

 

if you enter a discussion with a closed mind, then your not being fair on your opponent, simply taking the attitude that your right and everyone else is wrong wont make you many friends.

the callidus is a beast in combat, and IMO used best against more elite armies.. if used correctly she can take the backfiled or be used to counter a unit on an objective, moreover having her support an attack leads to your opponent needing to decide which is the bigger threat.. spending a whole units shooting to kill her can potentially mean leaving other elements of your army unscathed and ready to pounce.

Not everyhting has to be about earning back its points and being able to kill off units signle handedly..

there are a few members here who attend the silent requiem school of thought, i know id do.. and i subscribe to the idea that an army should be greater than the sum of its parts, and often by taking elements that your oppenent disregrads as ineffective and combining them with other elements you can be surprised at the results.

fertiliser isnt dangerous, sugar isnt dangerous.. mix the two correctly and you get explosive results

 

i hope my mad ramblings make sense

[thade]

...pure wisdom...

[Something Wycked]

the comment above by something wycked was IMO not meant as rudeness, i believe your seeing an insult where none was intended, thats supported by the man himself.

to date to my knowledge he has shown no degree of hostility or personal attacks against anyone (bar some sarcasm) and is IMO above such things.

Absolutely, thank you for interceding GC08.

 

Jeffersonian, I was not in any way implying that you do not have any skill or ability. I was stating that the Callidus, in her previous incarnations, required no special skill to use effectively: roll for reserves, place her near a unit, do damage to it, and assault it. The only real skill required there was correct target selection; all else was handled automatically by game mechanics.

 

I'd have more to say but GC08 said it all rather nicely.

[Sanct]

couldn't you take a vindicare and a callidus? Each of the temples are unique but there's nothing that says you are limited to one assassin now.

[thade]

No codex in hand, but yes: pretty sure you can take three assassins so long as they are each of a different temple.