DOA for you or NOT?

[Captain Brightblade]

So I have been playing Blood Angels for over 18 years. Yes that is a long time. I have a friend who also plays BA, and has been touing around with a DOA army. The net lists that are out there suggest that you take Dante, and the Sanguinor. So I have to spend 500 pts. for this army to be effective? When I make a list I try my damndest to make it cheap, not spam, and be competitive. So what are your opinions on the matter? Myself I cannot see me paying that many points for two models. Yes they boost your army, and can do some damage, but really I can get better affects with a Reqlusiarch and a Libby. I alos feel this army lack any REAL fire suppourt. Melta yeah so you need to hit and kill every time, and we all know sometimes the dice gods do not allow us to do that. ^_^

[Ash]

So I have been playing Blood Angels for over 18 years. Yes that is a long time. I have a friend who also plays BA, and has been touing around with a DOA army. The net lists that are out there suggest that you take Dante, and the Sanguinor. So I have to spend 500 pts. for this army to be effective? When I make a list I try my damndest to make it cheap, not spam, and be competitive. So what are your opinions on the matter?

 

Plenty of variations with other models and elite choices. Librarians and Chaplains with plenty of variations and great buffs. One thing does not change, we need our priests in there.

 

Myself I cannot see me paying that many points for two models. Yes they boost your army, and can do some damage, but really I can get better affects with a Reqlusiarch and a Libby.

Agreed look for standard HQ models with invunerables, thats chaplains and anything you can give a storm shield.

 

I alos feel this army lack any REAL fire suppourt. Melta yeah so you need to hit and kill every time, and we all know sometimes the dice gods do not allow us to do that. ^_^

 

DoA is not a fire support army though is it? DoA is an assault army.

 

There are always bikes and speeders to think about, they fit closely with the DOA approach. To be honest nothing with a low AV like the bikes and speeders will live long alongside a mainly DOA list if the opponent has only low AV to shoot. Its either baals scouting or landraiders in a hybrid non DoA list.

[Captain Brightblade]

Yes I know that this army has no fire suppourt, and it is stricktly assault. You can try bikes, speeders, dreads (heavy), but they become easy targets. Try this list on and see what you think. 2000 pts.

 

Reclusiarch

 

Librarian Unleash/ sheild

 

2 Preists with PW's

 

2 assault squads with 2 flamers, PF, In a Crusader with EA/ MM

 

2 Furiosos with EA/ Talons

 

2 Stormravens PC/MM/EA

 

2000 pts.

[Ash]

That list will do nicely it sounds like fun with 2 furioso's dropping from the Stormravens. Perhaps give one blood fists to help crack the tough nut units. It seems low on scoring models but I would hate to face a double charge from two furiosos like that, low model counts probably dont matter if all your enemies troop choices are lying on the board behind Mr blender fists. I would like to hear how you go.

I have limited knowledge with BA but guess no-one likes facing anything like that.

[Captain Brightblade]

With this list I have won 2 tournaments. I usually find myself tabling my opponents by turn 5 or 6. Most armies just can't handle a charge from my AS in the crusaders. The most I have lost in a game with this list has been a landraider, a raven, and a furioso. This list is just really hard to deal with 6 things at or over AV 12. I get it is also hard to decide what needs to die, but what a raven, a crusader? The EA really helps ALOT with everyone taking missle launchers like crazy these days, EA is a must, and keeps me moving constantly. Machine spirit saves my ass too.

[Leksington]

Yes I know that this army has no fire suppourt, and it is stricktly assault. You can try bikes, speeders, dreads (heavy), but they become easy targets. Try this list on and see what you think. 2000 pts.

 

Reclusiarch

 

Librarian Unleash/ sheild

 

2 Preists with PW's

 

2 assault squads with 2 flamers, PF, In a Crusader with EA/ MM

 

2 Furiosos with EA/ Talons

 

2 Stormravens PC/MM/EA

 

2000 pts.

I'm not sure I'd call that a DoA list.

 

Edit: Or were you saying this is what you prefer to a DoA list?

[Brother_Byhlli]

Yes I know that this army has no fire suppourt, and it is stricktly assault. You can try bikes, speeders, dreads (heavy), but they become easy targets. Try this list on and see what you think. 2000 pts.

 

Reclusiarch

 

Librarian Unleash/ sheild

 

2 Preists with PW's

 

2 assault squads with 2 flamers, PF, In a Crusader with EA/ MM

 

2 Furiosos with EA/ Talons

 

2 Stormravens PC/MM/EA

 

2000 pts.

I'm not sure I'd call that a DoA list.

 

Edit: Or were you saying this is what you prefer to a DoA list?

 

I assume it's a preference over a DOA list, being as there is nothing in the list at all with the DOA rule.

 

For myself, I decided to run a DOA list because of the image it has in my mind but I learned very quickly that I actually prefer using my jump infantry to bounce about the table and hide behind cover, starting them on the board during deployment rather than holding them in reserve.

 

The problem I have with DOA is that the models you can give the special rule are all assault units. No assault unit is going to benefit from dropping out of the sky within charge range of the enemy, given that you get one round of shooting and then get assaulted yourself. Denying yourself the charge and - crucially - Furious Charge is an extremely bad idea. Obviously the only unit this doesn't apply to is Vanguard Veterans.

 

I assume there are some situations where DOA is genuinely a valuable approach, but I haven't seen it yet. Using cover to cross the board and taking one extra turn to reach the enemy is much more sensible to my eyes.

[SevenExxes]

There's an army list in the BA Army section that has Dante, Sang guard and Speeders. Looks nice. I might have to use it.

[JamesI]

There's an army list in the BA Army section that has Dante, Sang guard and Speeders. Looks nice. I might have to use it.

I liked the look of that list too. I think it had 1 RAS as well. I was considering proxying it together for a test run.

[SevenExxes]

Oh that's right, the revised version has one ten man JRAS. Yeah, nice list.

[SamaNagol]

I do believe a 10 man VGV squad is essential in an all DoA list.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

For myself, I decided to run a DOA list because of the image it has in my mind but I learned very quickly that I actually prefer using my jump infantry to bounce about the table and hide behind cover, starting them on the board during deployment rather than holding them in reserve.

 

The problem I have with DOA is that the models you can give the special rule are all assault units. No assault unit is going to benefit from dropping out of the sky within charge range of the enemy, given that you get one round of shooting and then get assaulted yourself. Denying yourself the charge and - crucially - Furious Charge is an extremely bad idea. Obviously the only unit this doesn't apply to is Vanguard Veterans.

 

I assume there are some situations where DOA is genuinely a valuable approach, but I haven't seen it yet. Using cover to cross the board and taking one extra turn to reach the enemy is much more sensible to my eyes.

 

The main reason I like running DoA lists is the tactical flexibility if offers. If forces my opponent to deploy their forces either castled in a tight group, spread out across their deployment, or several smaller groups. This gives me the tactical advantage that I don't have if I set up at deployment. I can hit them on my terms where I deem fit and deny my targets back up, deep striking out of immediate charge range of powerful units or out of LoS from ranged firepower. Yes, my units do on occasion get assaulted. However those that do get assaulted get assaulted on my terms and usually near backup.

 

I love running Vanguard in my DoA lists and I think that if you're going to run DoA they're a must. I normally run 5 man VV and 2 10 man RAS w/ Flamers and an attached priest with one of them. The RAS with the priest deep strikes near the VV units so they can benefit from FC and FNP. I also run Dante with a Melta Death HG so if the RAS wit the priest fails to come in on the same turn with the VV hopefully they will. I find that people are normally more worried about the HGs and VVs to care much about the RAS. Doing this you have to bring the RAS or HG as close as possible to still give the buffs to the VVs.

 

Besides when it comes right down to is there anything more iconic of our beloved chapter than marines in scarlet descending from the heavens on wings of fire to bring swift death to the enemies of the Emperor?

 

-Samirus

[Captain Brightblade]

All of this I already know guys give me something I haven't seen yet. The list that I posted was just a list to try not DOA. The Dante speeder list is cool I have tried it, and was semi successful. We all want our Chapter to rule the skies, and dominate the assault phase, but with DOA you have to play the game on your terms. If not you just die. A bad round of shooting or assault will ruin your game with those lists. I know Death company are REALLY expensive, but I don not see many lists that include them tactically. I am currently toying around with a all Death Company list that includes Astorath and Lemartes. Another thing I have found is ever since I have gotten my storm ravens (3) I cannot see my self not ever taking them in a list they ARE THAT GOOD!

[SamaNagol]

Your army will be 10 models big. Good luck with that.

[Captain Brightblade]

No about 42 but who knows maybe I can beat everyone with just 10 models! J/K

[BigBaals]

I think there are 3 things essential to pure DoA lists:

 

Astorath the Grim for Red Thirst on a 1-3

Vanguard Veterans to surgically strike units (I usually bring 10 man and combat squad)

Sanguinary Priest for Feel No Pain and Furious Charge

 

 

I've successfully and not so successfully mixed in all types of units. Surprisingly the outflanking Assault Cannon/Heavy Bolter Baal was one of the more successful as people have a hard time planning for outflanking Assault Cannons. Of course the Stormraven + Furioso is a great addition but I generally would keep it in reserve because DoA loves to go 2nd. As for what to put inside the Raven', Death Company seemed to work best. I've used Sanguinary Guard with a Priest inside the Raven' also and they are choppy, but it's only 6 wounds so you have to be careful with them. I generally only use 2 regular Assault Squads, but after finally figuring out they are just troops, I'd find room for at least another 5 man squad in the future.

 

The best thing about Dante was his surgical strike and his nerf-bat the other guy ability. I used him, but I burned out on him back in our AdobeDex so he's come out of the box twice in the last year.

 

Sanguinor, another big "meh." He's neat, but I really like Astorath better. Cooler model too. Astorath is a BEAST in close combat. Re-rolls for his squad, power weapon at ST6, forces successful saves against his wounds to be re-rolled. Stick him in a 10 man squad of RAS and they rock. Turn 4(ish) detach him from that squad so he can go play with something else, contest objectives, or to just give your opponent a choice between the rock hard HQ that just whipped his HQ to death and your troops that look a little less threatening (as they sit on the objective!).

 

Generally my base setup for every DoA list looks like this:

 

Astorath

Priest (1 or 2): JP, PW

RAS x10 MGx2, PF

RAS x10 MGx2, PF

VGV: PWx2, PFx2, LCx2, JP (obviously)

 

 

Then fill it in from there with whatever you want.

 

I've actually moved back to a semi-hybrid type list since I'd painted Mephiston but left him in the bag for 5-6 months... DoA is still the MOST fun, and I don't think Hybrid or DoA lists will ever be without my Death Company. WS5, FNP, and re-roll all failed hits AND wounds with a Chaplain... amazing. Almost too strong with a Chaplain so you can go either way with that, but the DC will certainly get your opponents attention after he sees you multi-assault with your DC and wipe them both out without taking a wound in return. Attack Bikes are my meta's bane - they work in DoA also as they are easy to hide or you can reserve them then zoom in for 3+ Cover.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you like to play DoA there are plenty of tactical articles and list building suggestions in my blog. :) The link is in my sig if you're interested.

 

G :woot:

[Captain Brightblade]

I already read your blog man. You have some really great articles in there, and I have tried out some of your lists. Another thing that boggles my mind is that our sang guard have master-crafted (two handed) PW's. :woot:!? Where the hell is my relic blade? Thanks alot matt Ward. People say they would be too powerful. . . . no they are still a marine, and they would not get another attack. master-crafted is nice, but I want a relic blade. Death company RULE! I had a 10 man with a chappy w/ 4 PW's, PF, and TH WALK through a Th SS termy squad. They are nasty, but they can be unpredictable unfortunately. Another list I have seen played is a all drop pod list. (seen alot of this from Space puppies too) We can do it cheap, and it can be pretty effective. I do fortunately get to play with Casey Mcnamara ( currently ranked 4th in the U.S. tournament scene) he is one hell of an opponent. (Check out RanknigsHQ.com). Does anyone ever use a tech marine? I would like to use one since I have two of the models, but find very small if any use for him.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Death company RULE! I had a 10 man with a chappy w/ 4 PW's, PF, and TH WALK through a Th SS termy squad.

 

I get frustrated when I read comments like this. Your unit - assuming no jump packs and no upgrades on the Chaplain - is near enough twice the price of a unit of five thunderhammer and storm shield Terminators. If it wasn't walking through them, I'd be horrified.

 

I mean, if we ignore the cost of a unit, why not say "I ran a thirty-man jump-pack Death Company, with twenty armed with power weapons and ten armed with thunderhammer and storm shield, with the Lemartes upgrade, Dante and Astorath attached to the unit and they walked through a thunderhammer and storm shield Terminator squad".

 

I'd be curious to see how your ten-man Death Company would fare against a Terminator squad of equal points value. I suspect it would be a significantly closer fight.

 

Edit: I'm not meaning to snap at you, brother. Don't mean to come across like I'm trying to be an ass. I'm a bit tired. :woot:

[Captain Brightblade]

This is true especially with most of our units. Look at space wolves (same bull:cuss) their stuff is so cheap and with so many upgrades and abilities; no wonder everyone in 40k wants to play them. It is ok if you snapped man. Also the termies were a 10 man unit with a preist and a chappy. So not quite as cheap as you probably had thought, and alot tougher too.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Also the termies were a 10 man unit with a preist and a chappy. So not quite as cheap as you probably had thought, and alot tougher too.

 

Then I stand corrected and am suitably impressed! :P

 

I actually want to run a Death Company unit in my army in my next list. Combined with Lemartes, I think they are obscenely powerful, which is more or less the point you make.

 

I'm thinking a unit of four with power weapons and jump packs plus Lemartes would sit rather nicely in a Stormraven and, if I have spare points, I'll pick up a fifth model. 24 WS5, S5, I5 power weapon attacks rerolling to hit and to wound can do rather a lot of damage!

 

Something that I like about Death Company which I find is rarely mentioned is the fact that they carry their own Feel No Pain around without having to rely on a Sanguinary Priest's bubble. That gives you some measure of tactical flexibility that I rather value.

 

I think a Death Company model with power weapons on the charge can statistically be expected to kill two Terminators without storm shields, or one with storm shield, which is rather a spectacular return for them! Quick mathhammer tells me that your unit would expect to do 44 attacks on the charge, hitting with roughly 18 power weapons, 7 hits spread between the thunderhammer and power fist and 12standard chainsword hits. That works into 15 power weapon wounds, 6 thunderhammer/power fist wounds and 9 chainsword wounds. That works into 5 power weapon kills, 2 thunderhammer/power fist kills and 1 chainsword kill, which is essentially a dead unit. Most of that damage is done before even the independent characters get a chance to attack and, if you focus attacks on them, you'll do more damage due to their lack of invulnerable save. Do you remember how much damage the Terminators caused on you with their thunderhammers?

[Dunnaeph34rn473]

Disclaimer: I just got back into 40k a few months ago, and my battle experience is quite limited.

 

That being said, I have to agree with Captain Brightblade. I've seen several posts saying the Death Company aren't worth their points on these forums. Based on my limited experience I tend to disagree however. The past two battles I've played I ran a five man DC squad + Lemartes, and they wreck whatever they run into really. I always just allocate the first wound to Lemartes purposefully trying to get him down to one wound so his attacks and strength both increase to 5, essentially turning him into a blender. I also run them in unison with a squad of Sanguinary guard with a chapter banner, adding to their attacks further. So far I've been very impressed with their killing power. I like the versatility of them too, you can basically equip them to deal with any sort of unit in melee combat.

 

As I said, my results are extremely limited, but so far I'm a big DC fan, and an even bigger Lemartes fan.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Disclaimer: I just got back into 40k a few months ago, and my battle experience is quite limited.

 

That being said, I have to agree with Captain Brightblade. I've seen several posts saying the Death Company aren't worth their points on these forums. Based on my limited experience I tend to disagree however. The past two battles I've played I ran a five man DC squad + Lemartes, and they wreck whatever they run into really. I always just allocate the first wound to Lemartes purposefully trying to get him down to one wound so his attacks and strength both increase to 5, essentially turning him into a blender. I also run them in unison with a squad of Sanguinary guard with a chapter banner, adding to their attacks further. So far I've been very impressed with their killing power. I like the versatility of them too, you can basically equip them to deal with any sort of unit in melee combat.

 

As I said, my results are extremely limited, but so far I'm a big DC fan, and an even bigger Lemartes fan.

 

I would never disagree that Death Company can kill stuff. Lots. My problem is the lack of control I have over the unit. That, for me, is almost a game-breaker. Against players who lack experience it's not a huge issue, but the potential to have your killing unit run off into the distance chasing some 35-point tank is a bit worrying.

 

The Sanguinary Guard don't add attacks to the Death Company. The chapter banner adds one additional attack per model to the unit that carries it.

 

I wonder if using Death Companny sans jump packs makes them more controllable. Being as you can run in any direction you want and charge any unit you want, the 6" forced movement that you don't control becomes less of a deal breaker. You don't want to being running Lemartes, I guess, if you don't have jump packs, but you can add a Chaplain and stick the lot of them in a Rhino? But then you have the points issue of a large unit of Death Company.

 

*Sigh*

 

I really don't know how I would run them. I'm still trying to find a way to fit them in my jump infantry list.

[JamesI]

I really don't know how I would run them. I'm still trying to find a way to fit them in my jump infantry list.

In a jumpy list, I would leave the DC home. Go with San Guard, Vanguard or Honor Guard for nasty CC punch.

 

DC work best in a mech list, in a rhino or land raider (or even storm raven)

[Brother_Byhlli]

I really don't know how I would run them. I'm still trying to find a way to fit them in my jump infantry list.

In a jumpy list, I would leave the DC home. Go with San Guard, Vanguard or Honor Guard for nasty CC punch.

 

DC work best in a mech list, in a rhino or land raider (or even storm raven)

 

This is the impression I have. I'm using my Honour Guard for shooty-goodness and I have Sanguinary Guard, but I'm unhappy with their lack of dual-wielding affecting the number of attacks. I haven't tried Vanguard Veterans yet, but I'll be having a go with them in the next little while.

 

Edit: of course, I realise that the chapter banner gives the Sanguinary Guard the extra attacks if I want them, but I rather suspect it's better used on a choppy Honour Guard squad instead, bumping their attacks from two base to five each on the charge. That's a unit I would involve a Chaplain or a Reclusiarch with...!