DOA for you or NOT?

[JamesI]

I really don't know how I would run them. I'm still trying to find a way to fit them in my jump infantry list.

In a jumpy list, I would leave the DC home. Go with San Guard, Vanguard or Honor Guard for nasty CC punch.

 

DC work best in a mech list, in a rhino or land raider (or even storm raven)

 

This is the impression I have. I'm using my Honour Guard for shooty-goodness and I have Sanguinary Guard, but I'm unhappy with their lack of dual-wielding affecting the number of attacks. I haven't tried Vanguard Veterans yet, but I'll be having a go with them in the next little while.

 

Edit: of course, I realise that the chapter banner gives the Sanguinary Guard the extra attacks if I want them, but I rather suspect it's better used on a choppy Honour Guard squad instead, bumping their attacks from two base to five each on the charge. That's a unit I would involve a Chaplain or a Reclusiarch with...!

I love the Sanguinary Guard. I think a good choppy HG costs too many points, generally 350ish to get storm shields/lightning claws and the banner. The SG costs only 230 with the banner and gets 4 attacks on the charge rerolling 1 each.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I really don't know how I would run them. I'm still trying to find a way to fit them in my jump infantry list.

In a jumpy list, I would leave the DC home. Go with San Guard, Vanguard or Honor Guard for nasty CC punch.

 

DC work best in a mech list, in a rhino or land raider (or even storm raven)

 

This is the impression I have. I'm using my Honour Guard for shooty-goodness and I have Sanguinary Guard, but I'm unhappy with their lack of dual-wielding affecting the number of attacks. I haven't tried Vanguard Veterans yet, but I'll be having a go with them in the next little while.

 

Edit: of course, I realise that the chapter banner gives the Sanguinary Guard the extra attacks if I want them, but I rather suspect it's better used on a choppy Honour Guard squad instead, bumping their attacks from two base to five each on the charge. That's a unit I would involve a Chaplain or a Reclusiarch with...!

I love the Sanguinary Guard. I think a good choppy HG costs too many points, generally 350ish to get storm shields/lightning claws and the banner. The SG costs only 230 with the banner and gets 4 attacks on the charge rerolling 1 each.

 

Right, but if you're giving them storm shields and lightning claws they're significantly more killy than the Sanguinary Guard and also significantly more survivable. They have Feel No Pain to make up for the difference in armour save and they have a 3++ save for any power weapons they come across.

 

Which said, I'd be tempted not to give them the storm shields at all. Hitting at Initiative 5 on the charge means you're probably hitting stuff before it hits you. I guess it depends on your meta and what you're liking to be facing in an average game.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

But then they are also over 100 pts more expensive. Which would let the SangGuard pick up a jump priest with Pwep/Claw and maybe even an Infernus Pistol if you liked or say a pair of priests elsewhere in the list.

 

Sang Guard with FC on the charge ~5 MEQ Kills average

Honour Guard with FC on the charge ~6 MEQ Kills average

 

 

is the hundred pts worth the Invul and 1 extra kill?

 

Thats up to you.

[AustonT]

On DC: They aren't worth the points right now, and certainly not with JP. It sucks but a lot of staple units are relegated to fluff lists or "this works for me but shouldn't" lists.

On DoA: Properly executed it can be done without the guys in gold out front. The hardest game I've played against a fellow BA in the new dex was a DoA army with Ravens and scouts. Sounds goofy as hell but the ravens have excellent firepower and CC Scouts with SP are evil. The DoA parts deal with more immediate threats and CC scouts tie up units in CC

[Brother_Byhlli]

But then they are also over 100 pts more expensive. Which would let the SangGuard pick up a jump priest with Pwep/Claw and maybe even an Infernus Pistol if you liked or say a pair of priests elsewhere in the list.

 

Sang Guard with FC on the charge ~5 MEQ Kills average

Honour Guard with FC on the charge ~6 MEQ Kills average

 

 

is the hundred pts worth the Invul and 1 extra kill?

 

Thats up to you.

 

Sorry, you've completely lost me with this post. I don't know which post you're replying to.

[Leksington]

I imagine what he is getting at is that SG are a more efficient use of points than a super decked out HG.

 

Allow me to give you a rough break down of some of the math:

-SG points per model is easy to figure out, [200 +30 (for the banner)]/5 = 46 points per model.

-For the HG we need to take the Sanguinary noviate out of the equation. To do that we will deal with 4 of them and give their unit a 75 point credit (the value of a SP). So [115 + 50(for jump packs) + 30(for the banner) - 75]/4 = 30 points per model. Add a lighning claw and he is up to 45 points per model.

 

So we have a base cost of 46/model for SG, and 45/model for HG.

 

So for 1 point per model, the SG get an upgrade to artificer armor, fearless, and an Angelus Boltgun (plus the SG are scoring if you have Dante). Regardless of how much your prefer the LC to the GE, clearly the SG are a more efficient use of points.

 

The moral of this story is that you don't want to throw tons of equipment on your HG, unless you have a very specific battle plan that requires it. HG are most point efficient when moderately geared (and they make for ideal recipients of melta).

 

 

P.S. I probably sound like a broken record on this point, but keep in mind that BA pay 5 points more per Storm Shield than vanilla marines.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Edit: I made a couple of pretty serious mistakes with my numbers. Apologies to all who read any or all of it. I've pulled the post until I can run through things again later on. My bad!

[JamesI]

shooting and charging the HG into MEQ I got 9.5 kills and 32.96 points per kill (or worse than the SG).

I'm not checking the other math.

 

For an Honor Guard with jump packs and 4 sets of lightning claws and the banner is 315 points. It seems to me that you bought only 1 claw per HG, but still gave them the bonus of the extra attack for 2 weapons to get your results (that is the only way I can match your results, a unit costing 255 points but still getting 5 attacks on the charge with lightning claws per HG (excluding Novitiate))

 

Also a Sanguinary Priest with a Sanguinary Guard needs either a lightning claw or power weapon which would increase the cost but also the wounds significantly against MEQ.

[Brother_Byhlli]

shooting and charging the HG into MEQ I got 9.5 kills and 32.96 points per kill (or worse than the SG).

I'm not checking the other math.

 

For an Honor Guard with jump packs and 4 sets of lightning claws and the banner is 315 points. It seems to me that you bought only 1 claw per HG, but still gave them the bonus of the extra attack for 2 weapons to get your results (that is the only way I can match your results, a unit costing 255 points but still getting 5 attacks on the charge with lightning claws per HG (excluding Novitiate))

 

Also a Sanguinary Priest with a Sanguinary Guard needs either a lightning claw or power weapon which would increase the cost but also the wounds significantly against MEQ.

 

You're right, James. I'm sorry, I made major errors with my numbers. I need to go rework it. Thanks for even this little heads-up - I'd have been happy to leave a whole bunch of nonsense up there if you hadn't given me a shout!

 

Edit: I think the only mistake I've made was excluding the cost of the extra lightning claw on the Honour Guard. That should balance things up. I can put a lightning claw or power weapon on the Sanguinary Priest and work out those numbers. It makes the comparison much more helpful, too, since there's then only five points difference in the price for the two squads.

[JamesI]

My calculation for SG and a priest with power weapon (320 points total) gives exactly 12 kills against MEQ on the charge (including 1.4 kills from shooting). 26 and 2/3 points per kill. Far more efficient than what I got for the HG (32.96 points per kill).

 

Of course, I wouldn't arm a HG that way. Something more like banner, some with 1 claw and shield, at least 1 fist (or hammer) and shield. This makes the HG less efficient in terms of killing but far more survivable.

 

Really, the difference is I find the SG far more efficient in pure killiness. HG can be designed to be more survivable (storm shields). Which do you prefer? I prefer SG.

[Brother_Byhlli]

My calculation for SG and a priest with power weapon (320 points total) gives exactly 12 kills against MEQ on the charge (including 1.4 kills from shooting). 26 and 2/3 points per kill. Far more efficient than what I got for the HG (32.96 points per kill).

 

Of course, I wouldn't arm a HG that way. Something more like banner, some with 1 claw and shield, at least 1 fist (or hammer) and shield. This makes the HG less efficient in terms of killing but far more survivable.

 

Really, the difference is I find the SG far more efficient in pure killiness. HG can be designed to be more survivable (storm shields). Which do you prefer? I prefer SG.

 

Mhm, I haven't got round to working the numbers again, but I made the point at the end of my post that I prefer the Honour Guard as a fire-support unit, as I don't get it from anything else in my list. That makes Sanguinary Guard and Vanguard Veterans my go-to for combat efficiency.

 

So, even if it turned out that Honour Guard were more efficient than Sanguinary Guard, I'd probably still be choosing the Sanguinary Guard for combat, as they're much more limited in their tactical choices.

 

I'm a little annoyed that I forgot to include the price of the second lightning claw, though!

 

:D

[RogueTraderX]

I use HG as a melta squad. 4 meltas and jumppacks is 205 (if I recall) and will slag whatever you doa them near. No other doa squad has this much sure killing tank goodness, not on the turn it arrives.

 

I use Librarians (original I know) with shield to help protect DOA units on their arrival and Lance to deal with castling. I treat them as ranged solo units, staying close to RAS squads should assault be necessary but mostly just shooting crap with lance.

 

VV are critical. With doa they will most likely get a charge off when they arrive. 10 combat squaded is very versatile. I give them some storm shields (5 or 6) and 2 fists or t.hammers and they're golden (well, just their helmets:). Too much bling robs points from my other squads. These guys tie up nasty stuff when they land, that's what they do. This provides assault protection for my RAS who are DOAing and melta-ing transports and dreads and whatnot. I like to hit enemy hammer squads, bubble wrapping squads and big counter assault ready blobs with them.

 

RAS, I bring some of these guys. Standard kit (10 RAS 2x melta, Fist). Solid freaking troops choice.

 

SG are a great hammer. I give them a fist and a priest and send them after things I want to see die. I find if I add a banner they will over kill on the first assault and get shot. It's either banner or priest for me, and I prefer priest for the I and S bonuses.

 

I bring 3 priests with packs and usually a lightning claw for the one who'll hang with the SG. That's 4 bubbles including the HG!

 

My biggest problems are no ranged threat beyond 24 (with ideal range of 18 for melta rule and assaulting) and opponents who go second and reserve their entire army! DOA is a LOT less useful then, i never use the reroll for squads arriving 2nd turn but still half of my army will land with nothing to attack!

 

 

-X

[Captain Brightblade]

HG, shooty HG? Why? I would rather have a libby with unleash and lance followed by a half shooty/CC HG. I have found in my local area that I am fighting LOTS of GK and SW . . . marines. So most of these lists are foot slogging or Razor spam. What do mariens hate to do make ALOT of armour saves. FLAMERS and PC for the win! DC IMO, work best coming out of a raven or Crusader. That way when you murder your first unit you can wreak havok in your enemies lines by multi-charging. Sang guard work, and I like a PF for 10 pts. but there isn't enough of them to make that big of a difference. They need a priest, and/or another character too. I like to take units that can have dual roles DC w/ PF / TH / IP. I see many players who are taking really expensive squads that are only 5 man strong. They show up maybe kill something then die. I HATE when I lose my guys (just like any general), and I know it happens, but 300 to 500 pts for 5 dudes is not worth it.

[BigBaals]

That's what my SG do without something attached. Kill some normal troops or drop down a pop a tank... then die. I've found keeping them back with my AC/Razorback Assault Squads is good though. They have fire support, I can keep a priest inside the tank to provide FNP to everyone, and they can generally get a cover save from the tanks. Using them as a front line assault unit has just failed me. In a Raven' with a Priest isn't bad, but it's hit or miss. Glass Cannon.

[Something Wycked]

Glass Cannon.

Its funny you say that, because the only way to get dedicated assault troops any tougher than SG (who have 2+/FNP) is to use Terminators or Hammernators :huh: Perhaps you're just leaving them too exposed, being a little overly aggressive?

 

I am not a DOA player. I don't like the chance that I won't see my unit for the entire game, and I also don't like the chance that it won't enter play where I want it to enter, with the chance for a mishap on top of it.

 

In fact, I'm not a very assaulty player at all- I play shooty Marines, and the BA codex does it better than anyone. I still take Priests and assault troops (I'll take our Assault Marines over Tactical Marines for my Troops choices any day of the week) but I use them very conservatively- I don't send my army into my opponent's half of the board until the closing stages of the game, if there's an objective to take.

 

In this play style, SG make extraordinarily potent counter assault troops- their mobility means they can be in the right place at the right time, and their assault punch makes most opposing assault units hesitate- sure, they can get a charge in on one of my Assault squads or Devastators and they'll do some damage, but then they're going to get smacked in the back of the head by the SG.