Morticon Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm not sure if i've already posted this topic, searchy tells me no...but sometimes he lies. :) Theres a big debate raging this side of the world regards vehicle squadrons and using smoke. The specific condition to which the debate is related in where a squadron of 2 vehicles has one vehicle pop smoke. Now, no one debates that since half the squad is in cover, they both will get cover. However, there are two iffy issues that have arisen from this situation. 1: How can one pop smoke and not the other? 2: How can one pop smoke and the other still shoot? (For those of you who are wondering why this would be done in the first place; its for situations where one tank in the squad cant shoot or doesnt have LOS etc, or the necessity for cover is greater than the necessity for firepower). Thoughts gents? Id be greatly appreciative if people would quote relevant rules passages and not just opinion for this. I'll post the local arguments and counter arguments later but i dont want to swing thought either way at the moment! Cheers! Mort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 "Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (it doesnt matter how far it moved)." So, a vehicle, not a squadron does this. The squadron rules make no mention of smoke launchers- merely that all vehicles must move the same speed. Now, in the shooting phase it states that a squadron must fire 'all available weaponry' at the declared target. The weapons from a vehicle that popped smoke are not available- since the rules for popping smoke dont allow it. I dont see anywhere in the rules this stopping people from shooting the other vehicle. After all, a shaken vehicle cant shoot either but that shouldnt, and by the rules doesnt, stop its squadronmates from shooting something. So it looks like, from my reading of the BRB, that this is a legal- if unusual- tactic. Its wonky, but frankly only the IG can make use of this- and then were looking at them squadroning 250pt battle tanks..... yeesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 GM Im in 100% agreement for that exact reason. However, lemme just give you whats being argued down this side: People have used this rule here: Vehicle Squadron Rules- "...These units follow the rules for normal units, with the following exceptions:" and this one: Smoke: "The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn.." They use these rules to argue that, If you have to follow the rules for normal units and you may not fire any weapons on a vehicle that you have smoked how can this be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Its wonky, but frankly only the IG can make use of this- and then were looking at them squadroning 250pt battle tanks..... yeesh. Or cheap-ass hydras. Either way, if one is not shooting, maybe thanks to a shaken result, its a great tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Well the thing is, if you move you cant fire a heavy weapon- but the rest of the unit can still fire their bolters eh? Theres nothing in the rules that says all members of a unit must be able to fire for one of them to able to. In fact, the times where everyone must for any to do are uncommon- embarking on a vehicle for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Its wonky, but frankly only the IG can make use of this- and then were looking at them squadroning 250pt battle tanks..... yeesh. Or cheap-ass hydras. Either way, if one is not shooting, maybe thanks to a shaken result, its a great tactic. Works for Sentinels & Hellhounds too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Well the thing is, if you move you cant fire a heavy weapon- but the rest of the unit can still fire their bolters eh? Theres nothing in the rules that says all members of a unit must be able to fire for one of them to able to. In fact, the times where everyone must for any to do are uncommon- embarking on a vehicle for example. It looks to me as though they are trying to argue that the use of the word vehicles in the smoke launcher rules is interchangeable with the word Units. Which might actually potentially have some merit to it only theres nothing in the rules that really discuss this matter in the vehicle section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 A thought occurs and I have no rulebook to check: Could you do this with squadrons of Land Speeders by Turbo-Boosting one and firing with the other, or is Turbo-Boosting unit-wide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 A thought occurs and I have no rulebook to check: Could you do this with squadrons of Land Speeders by Turbo-Boosting one and firing with the other, or is Turbo-Boosting unit-wide? nice idea but 2 things: 1 for vehicles it is called flat out (they are 2 totally different rules common only in the fast movement) 2 all vehicles in a vehicle squadron must move at the same speed BRB p64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnar Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 That would allow all tanks in the squadron a cover save Page 64 brb Paraphrased Allocate all glancing penetrating hits Work out if each vehicle is in cover, ignoring otherr squadron members,( I.e. They can't give each other a cover save) If 50% of the squad is in cover, all tanks get a 4+ Fairly clever realy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I don't buy this. No rulebook on hand, so I'll need somebody to check my work here, but... The Smoke rule doesn't say anything like "The vehicle is in cover" or "The vehicle counts-as being in cover", right? It says that the vehicle gets a cover save. Not the unit. A model gets to use the best save available to it when it's time to roll saves, so the way I see this is: If one vehicle in the squadron popped smoke, that vehicle gets a cover save (if you allocate hits to it, it can roll on that save). Other models in the squad that did not pop smoke can fire. Bottom line is I don't believe that the entire unit gets cover saves if only one of them popped smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnar Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 No, but if 50% of them pop smoke, the others get a save. The smoke rules say that "will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save" Pg um 62(3?) Hence, if 50% of the squad pop smoke, the entire squad will gain a cover save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 No, but if 50% of them pop smoke, the others get a save.The smoke rules say that "will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save" Pg um 62(3?) Hence, if 50% of the squad pop smoke, the entire squad will gain a cover save. Ah I see. That's...a bit dodgy. :P But RAW. That could allow vehicle squadrons to have more than one application of smoke per game, which I do not like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 The rules for 50% of a unit being in cover does not apply to vehicles because vehicles specifically only get cover when they are obscured by 50%. So a vehicle that is part of a squadron pops smoke. That vehicle is obscured and gets cover. The other vehicle that did not pop smoke, is not obscured and does not get cover. However as it did not pop smoke, he is allowed to fire. Cover works differently for vehicles, period. Even if you were to say that 50% of the squadron unit is in cover, that does not remove the requirement for the vehicle to be 50% obscured to receive said cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnar Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 No, the squadron vehicle rules on pg 64 column 2 2nd paragraph state that you work out if each tank is in cover, then use the normal unit rules to decide if the unit is in cover, I didn't like it either, but there you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 If 50% of 50% of a unit is in cover isnt that only 25% of the squad? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 No, the squadron vehicle rules on pg 64 column 2 2nd paragraph state that you work out if each tank is in cover, then use the normal unit rules to decide if the unit is in cover, I didn't like it either, but there you are. While that may seem to work, smoke launchers are a piece of wargear that make a vehicle "count as obscured", not "count as in cover". Take a step by step of the rules: Unit A is shooting at Vehicle Squadron B. Unit A draws LoS, checks range; LoS is established and there is nothing between the two units to grant cover to Squadron B at all. In the previous player turn, one of the two vehicles in Squadron B popped smoke, so counts as obscured. Is 50% of Squadron B in cover? No, Squadron B has no cover from the firing models of Unit A. 50% of the Squadron is not in cover from the perspective of the firing models, so cover saves are not granted to the whole unit, but the vehicle that used its smoke launchers receives a cover save from wargear against any hits allocated to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 This would all be simplified were it simply worded that "firing smoke grants a 4+ cover save for the turn". In their efforts to be clear, they have muddied their own waters. Don't misunderstand me; I am not surprised. Just a little disappointed, per usual. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnar Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Realy? Page 21 Cover is basically anything that is hiding a a target or protecting it from incoming shots. I.E. Smoke Thus a unit with 50% smoke popped counts as being in cover, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Realy?Page 21 Cover is basically anything that is hiding a a target or protecting it from incoming shots. I.E. Smoke Thus a unit with 50% smoke popped counts as being in cover, Read the rules for vehicles and cover. A vehicles must be obscured to get cover. Smoke launchers grant the vehicle obscured and thus allow it it utilize a cover save. A vehicle that has not popped smoke is not obscured and therefore cannot utilize a cover save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnar Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Yes, but the squadron rules state that when a tank squadron is 50% obscured all the tanks get a save, as has already been said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Realy?Page 21 Cover is basically anything that is hiding a a target or protecting it from incoming shots. I.E. Smoke Thus a unit with 50% smoke popped counts as being in cover, Don't go off of what anything "basically" is. Cover is exactly this: intervening terrain or models. Wargear is not "cover". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnar Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 That's a direct quote from the rulebook, Anyway, no. Cover, as defined by the rulebook,is "anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incoming shots." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 That's a direct quote from the rulebook,Anyway, no. Cover, as defined by the rulebook,is "anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incoming shots." Which is later defined specifically for vehicles to get cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnar Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Ok, so a smoke launcher, giving a tank a 4+ cover save, doesn't count as cover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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