Smoke and Vehicle Squadrons.

[Seahawk]

No it doesn't. Otherwise, foot units assaulting the vehicle would have to roll Difficult Terrain tests.

[thade]

Ok, so a smoke launcher, giving a tank a 4+ cover save, doesn't count as cover?

I know that the lingo makes this seem backwards...but this statement is in a sense correct.

 

Direction is making it confusing: you're saying that "since this unit/model gets a 4+ cover save, it must be in cover." That is not the case.

 

Being in cover does confer a cover save. So do other things, like being sufficiently obscured and using Smoke Launchers; for vehicles, only these last two items can confer a cover save. While they have one effect in common with things like area terrain and ruins, they are significantly different in other ways (for instance, Seahawk's example).

[ilnar]

a model is in cover "when any part of it of the target models body is obscured" Pg 21

Now for tanks it has to be 50% obscured, (pg 62) but still,

Smoke launchers count as "obscured receiving a 4+ save."

therefore, smoke launchers count as cover, much as a hill would, giving a cover save without having to make a dangerous terrain test.

The vehicle squadron rules (pg64) states that a squadron with half of it's units in cover all receive a cover save.

This isn't an obscure ruling. Yes its a complicated one. with several different rules. But there are no grey vague area.

[Grey Mage]

Realy?

Page 21

Cover is basically anything that is hiding a a target or protecting it from incoming shots. I.E. Smoke

Thus a unit with 50% smoke popped counts as being in cover,

 

Read the rules for vehicles and cover. A vehicles must be obscured to get cover. Smoke launchers grant the vehicle obscured and thus allow it it utilize a cover save. A vehicle that has not popped smoke is not obscured and therefore cannot utilize a cover save.

Thats not in the least bit true ramses- any vehicle given a cover save may use it. Examples- shields of sanguinius and stormcaller.

[Something Wycked]

a model is in cover "when any part of it of the target models body is obscured" Pg 21

Now for tanks it has to be 50% obscured, (pg 62) but still,

Smoke launchers count as "obscured receiving a 4+ save."

therefore, smoke launchers count as cover, much as a hill would, giving a cover save without having to make a dangerous terrain test.

The vehicle squadron rules (pg64) states that a squadron with half of it's units in cover all receive a cover save.

This isn't an obscure ruling. Yes its a complicated one. with several different rules. But there are no grey vague area.

You've almost got it; smoke launchers (wargear) cause a vehicle to count as obscured and receive a "cover save". But like Seahawk pointed out, none of the vehicles are actually in cover. Since none of the vehicles are actually in cover (only one vehicle counts as obscured), the un-smoked vehicles do not receive a cover save.

 

The vehicle counts as obscured- it does not count as being in cover- the squadron does not receive a cover save.

 

Another example; let's take a squadron of walkers with a weapon skill. If the half-smoked squadron actually counted as being in cover and infantry without offensive grenades assaulted the walkers, the infantry would have to roll a Difficult Terrain test to see if they could reach the walkers to assault them and, in addition, would strike at Initiative 1 against the walkers due to the "in cover" status and lack of offensive grenades.

 

I hate to be so blunt, but I consider this to be cheese- in my eyes, its an exploitation of an interpretation of the rules to gain an unfriendly advantage over an opponent.

 

Thats not in the least bit true ramses- any vehicle given a cover save may use it. Examples- shields of sanguinius and stormcaller.

And The Shrouding- grants a 6+ if the unit is not in cover to utilize Stealth.

[ilnar]

Ahhhh, your confusing terrain and cover.

Two completely different things,

Cover saves can be got from several places, not just terrain.

He'll, some terrain doesn't grant a cover save at all.

 

This isn't cheese or a wild interpretation of them,

It's an unusual case sure, but you can't refuse any of my points.

For example, a tank hiding behind a wall is in cover, I.e gets a save, but is not IN cover

 

All rules are subject to our interpretation of them,

Your confusing terrain and cover is clouding your judgement.

[Grimtooth]

Realy?

Page 21

Cover is basically anything that is hiding a a target or protecting it from incoming shots. I.E. Smoke

Thus a unit with 50% smoke popped counts as being in cover,

 

Read the rules for vehicles and cover. A vehicles must be obscured to get cover. Smoke launchers grant the vehicle obscured and thus allow it it utilize a cover save. A vehicle that has not popped smoke is not obscured and therefore cannot utilize a cover save.

Thats not in the least bit true ramses- any vehicle given a cover save may use it. Examples- shields of sanguinius and stormcaller.

 

Storm Caller and SoS are exceptions to the rule in that they bypass the requirements for obscurement and outright grant a cover save even without obscurement or anything blocking the vehicle from LoS. They are clear exceptions to the rules for obscurement which we are talking about with smoke launchers.

[Grey Mage]

Smoke Launchers are likewise a clear exception to this rule- they dont require the vehicle to be obscured, they grant it outright.

[Seahawk]

I'll bring it back to the original:

 

1: How can one pop smoke and not the other?

Simply by choice. Just like one man can choose to shoot, and the others can choose to not shoot.

2: How can one pop smoke and the other still shoot?

Same question, different package. See above.

 

 

To the current question:

 

Smoke launchers make a vehicle "count as obscured in the next enemy Shooting Phase."

 

Going back to what that means, "If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it."

 

When does a vehicle count as being in cover: "At least 50% of the facing of the vehicle needs to be hidden by intervening terrain or models from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to claim to be in cover."

 

Conclusion: you can gain cover saves from sources that are not cover, in and of themselves. Being in (enough) cover means the unit gets a cover save, but getting a cover save doesn't necessarily mean you're in cover.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

No it doesn't. Otherwise, foot units assaulting the vehicle would have to roll Difficult Terrain tests.

So you are telling me that if I assault a vehicle and is behind another vehicle (giving it a cover save if 50% or more is behind it) I have to take a Difficult Terrain test?

[thade]

No it doesn't. Otherwise, foot units assaulting the vehicle would have to roll Difficult Terrain tests.

So you are telling me that if I assault a vehicle and is behind another vehicle (giving it a cover save if 50% or more is behind it) I have to take a Difficult Terrain test?

No, that is most certainly not what he is telling you. <3

[Seahawk]

Assaulting through Terrain forces a Difficult Terrain test. Unless you're assaulting over a wreck (Terrain) that happened to provide cover, no of course that's not what I'm saying.

 

- Smoke provides Cover.

- Terrain provides Cover.

- Cover does not provide Terrain.

- Cover is not Terrain unless it...is Terrain or a special rule like the Venomthrope's Spore Cloud.

[Something Wycked]

I think I found another nail in the coffin for this argument, in the new Ork FAQ of all places.

 

Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)

A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those within 6” of the custom force filed will count as obscured.

Here is precedent that special rules granting cover saves only grant cover saves to the vehicle affected by the special rule, not to the entire squadron.

 

Only vehicles that pop smoke are obscured; they do not grant it to the entire unit, even if 50% of the vehicles are obscured through smoke.

[Grey Mage]

Ah, but that doesnt keep a majority save from affecting the rest of the squadron- just like it would for other units as per the BRB.

[Something Wycked]

I'd agree with you for "normal" majority saves, such as having 50% of the squadron behind LoS blocking terrain. But the KFF FAQ specifically says that for vehicle squadrons only the vehicles in the squadron in range of the KFF gain the benefit.

 

If you have a 3 vehicle squadron and 2 of the 3 are in range of the KFF, only those two vehicles are obscured by the KFF; the 3rd vehicle gains no benefit from the KFF or a majority of the squadron being obscured by the KFF.

 

In my eyes, the precedent is set; having 1 of 2, or 2 of 3, vehicles in a squadron popping smoke does not gain the other vehicles any benefit.

[timmytool]

I'd agree with you for "normal" majority saves, such as having 50% of the squadron behind LoS blocking terrain. But the KFF FAQ specifically says that for vehicle squadrons only the vehicles in the squadron in range of the KFF gain the benefit.

 

If you have a 3 vehicle squadron and 2 of the 3 are in range of the KFF, only those two vehicles are obscured by the KFF; the 3rd vehicle gains no benefit from the KFF or a majority of the squadron being obscured by the KFF.

 

In my eyes, the precedent is set; having 1 of 2, or 2 of 3, vehicles in a squadron popping smoke does not gain the other vehicles any benefit.

 

Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a

vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)

A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those

within 6” of the custom force filed will count as

obscured.

 

and per the squadron rules, if 50% of the squadron is obscured then the whole squadron gets the cover save they worded it perfectly to allow it to work with squadrons.

 

if <= 1/3 2/5 3/7 etc are in the KFF then the whole squadron DO NOT GAIN A COVER SAVE even if one inside the field is assigned a pen/glance hit.

if >= 2/4 3/6 4/8 etc are in the KFF then the whole squadron DO GAIN A COVER SAVE even if one outside the field is assigned a pen/glance hit.

 

it is interesting to note that if 2/5 of a squadron are in the field and one outside the field pops smoke then 3/5 are obscured so the whole squadron get the cover save.

 

as the rules say it is just like infantry, you determine each vehicle as a separate vehicle then do a simple the best majority is used.

[Something Wycked]

Heh, funny, that. GW puts out a FAQ and people still read it both ways.

 

Did you read my first post, though? You posting the relevant FAQ entry when I already have makes me think that you didn't.

 

This one take a really thorough reading of the FAQ and KFF rules:

 

The KFF makes vehicles count as obscured.

The FAQ states that, for squadrons, only vehicles in range of the KFF are obscured- indicating that this is an exception to the normal squadron majority obscurement rules.

 

By extension, smoke launchers are also an exception to the normal obscurement rules.

[timmytool]

Unlike how the KFF works with infantry vehicle squadrons are always assessed using a per vehicle basses for cover then the majority is used.

 

Vehicle squadrons are not units they are a different breed called a squadron thus the distinction in the rules.

 

the reason for the reprint of the faq is that for vehicles each vehicle is accessed if it is "obscured" that wording is very important to the comment I made thus the reprint to avoid misinterpretation.

 

note the way the squadron rules are worded if the majority are not classified as obscured then no vehicle in the squadron are allowed to take a obscure/cover save, thus the reason they needed to word it that way.

[Something Wycked]

note the way the squadron rules are worded if the majority are not classified as obscured then no vehicle in the squadron are allowed to take a obscure/cover save, thus the reason they needed to word it that way.

^_^

 

So what you're saying is, even though the GW FAQ states that vehicles in squadrons that are in range of a KFF and count as obscured... Aren't allowed to take a cover save unless 50%+ of the squadron is covered?

 

I think you may be forgetting that Codex trumps BRB.

 

While the BRB may state that a majority of the squadron must be obscured for any/all of them to take a cover save, the KFF rules supercede that- and via this FAQ, only the vehicles in the squadron in range of the KFF may take the cover save.

[timmytool]

for vehicle their is only two ways to gain a cover save.

 

being obscure(4+ unless the facing is physically/los obscured[50%] buy a terrain piece that would give another save,3+ for fortification 5+ for hedge etc)

only having a off facing visible to the shooter(3+ cover save)

 

smoke launchers does not grant a cover save they make you count as obscured(BRB p62)

KFF dont give you a cover save they make you count as obscured(C:Orks p34,C:Orks FAQ p2 c1 q3)

 

I'm sure their are plenty of others.

 

In squadrons once 50% are obscured then the best majority is used so 1 out of 3 tanks are obscured by fortification (3+ cover save) 1 obscured by a KFF and one in the open, all the vehicles will gain a 3+ cover save from being obscured.

 

BRB p60, p62 and p22 c2 paragraph 2-3

[Something Wycked]

That is incorrect. Special abilities grant cover saves as well; see Grey Knight Librarians and Shrouding, Blood Angel Librarians and Shield of Sanguinius, etc. For example, Shield of Sanguinius grants a 5+ cover save to all units in range, vehicles included; they are neither behind cover nor obscured.

 

By the writing of the FAQ, take a squadron of vehicles. Apply the KFF to some of the vehicles in the squadron, but not all. The vehicles in range of the KFF are obscured; the vehicles not in range of the KFF are not obscured. Ergo, the BRB 50% rule does not apply, since it has been superceded by the KFF in the Ork codex and this FAQ ruling.

 

I might agree with your example, but only because it includes actual cover. If 2 of 3 vehicles in a squadron are obscured by the KFF, then 2 of 3 vehicles get a cover save.

 

The same goes for smoke launchers; if 2 of 3 vehicles use their smoke launchers, 2 of 3 get cover saves.

[ilnar]

The kff states that only tanks in range get obscured,

If 50of the unit is in range, then 50% count as obscured,

And heh presto, as per the brb they all get a save

Seriously, the BRB states specifically that if half the tanks in a squadron are obscured they all get a save.

Obscured comes from and LOS cover, smoke, KFF and a half dozern other things

The cover rules in there brb clearly state that a cover save is granted from being obscured,

 

The orc FAQ is there because infantry units with a single model in range all get a save. This is counter to the vehicle rules and was clarified,

There is no grey area here, no possible cheesy interpretation, there is no logical counter argument, since people just keep ignoring the rules that have been posted.

Something wicked, please go and read the squadron rules, which have been posted several times now.

Essentially, work out if each separate tank receives a cover save,

If 50% of the squad does, the whole unit does as per the cover rules for normal units.

 

It's all there in black and white.

[thade]

smoke launchers does not grant a cover save they make you count as obscured(BRB p62)

KFF dont give you a cover save they make you count as obscured(C:Orks p34,C:Orks FAQ p2 c1 q3)

Your efforts to simplify are actually complicating things. Being Obscured grants a cover save, per your own citations. Smoke Launchers make you Obscured, per your own citations. These things are transitive in one direction, while you seem to be trying to say they are not and that they are at the same time.

 

The bottom-line is that a unit need not actually be in cover in order to receive a cover save, as others have said: there are powers and abilities in the game that grant a cover save where no visible cover is involved. If half or more of a unit has a cover save, the whole unit gets one. What's not to understand?

[Something Wycked]

Something wicked, please go and read the squadron rules, which have been posted several times now.

Essentially, work out if each separate tank receives a cover save,

If 50% of the squad does, the whole unit does as per the cover rules for normal units.

 

It's all there in black and white.

It IS all there in black and white- please go and reread the Ork FAQ. The KFF ruling states that only vehicles in range of the KFF are obscured, and the others are not. Why the distinction unless the others aren't to receive the KFF's cover save? Are the vehicles, denied the KFF cover save, then allowed to receive the 50% squadron obscured cover save? Both cover saves have the same value. Why specify that some of them do not get the KFF cover save if they will then receive it via the squadron rules?

 

Its plain as day- the squadron rules in the BRB are overwritten by the Ork Codex and FAQ. Obscurement granted by special abilities does not trigger the 50% squadron cover rule.

[Grey Mage]

Well frankly how is that any different than half the models in an infantry squad being obscured by the terrain? Obviously the others are out in the open, unobscured, so theres no issue shooting at them....

 

Yet the whole unit gets the cover save.