Sternguard with librarian

[Purdy81]

With nearly 4000pts of space marines Ive yet to get some sternguard, but Im now playing against alot of marines so Im thinking of investing in some but I have a few questions.

 

1) If I was to kit them out with combi plasma, can the plasma rapidfire for the one shot I get with it?

 

2) If the plasma does rappid fire would it benefit from lysanders bolter drill?

 

3) Does anybody run Sterngaurd with a librarian and gate them all over the place rapid firing? I know this would make them very expensive but maybe more versatile then just dropping them in having a good shooting turn and then getting killed? If anybody has tried this how did you get on?

 

the reason i was asking about the plasma is that Im coming up against blood angels alot with feel no pain which plasma takes care of nicely

 

cheers guys

[Something Wycked]

1) Yes, combi-plasmas can rapid fire the one time it fires.

2) No, Lysander allows rerolls of missed shots with various Bolter weapons; even though it a combi-weapon they're not firing a Bolter shell and don't get the reroll.

3) I haven't run it, but I can tell you that I've used a Libby with GoI before, and its very risky. Every turn you move, you risk a mishap. Mishaps are bad.

[thade]

Not to mention that it's not hard to lose members of the squad to the Warp as you port around. I've only done this a few times and I've never really liked it.

 

This is the kind of thing that might work well in a list filled with teleport homers/locator beacons (drop pods, scout bikes, tac squads, etc) but I've yet to try it that way.

[TyrionTheImp]

Gate Librarian and Sternguard is often thought of as a "good on paper not so good on table" combination. Sternguard like to shoot, and they like to be mobile, Gate of Infinity lets them shoot with little problems and gives them mobility to shoot at what they want when they want. However, this doesn't take into account luck, which really the purpose of list building is to reduce luck as much as possible.

 

In addition to the standard Perils of the Warp threat, which isn't terribly bad on it's own, you've also got the scatter from deep striking, which can not only put you out of range of your target, but also put you into a dangerous terrain situation, or mishap and cause you to lose your unit. On top of that rolling doubles means you lose a guy period. The risks attached are certainly not worth the reward which in a perfect world, unobstructed shooting with your entire unit in range to rapid fire.

 

Then there is the risk AFTER using the combination. Your models are in a nice circle waiting for a nice plasma cannon, or demolisher cannon, or any other high S low AP blast to wipe your unit off the battlefield. I hope whatever you killed was worth more than the squad and librarian, because they're most likely piles of dust.

 

Just my thoughts.

[DarkGuard]

In hindsight GoI should be like the shunt movement of Interceptors, except only 24", and still with the risk of losing someone (like if you roll a double for your psychic test). But then hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was talking to one of the staff members about this, and he said that when at GW HQ he tried this tactic. He waited and waited in a ruin, then used it Turn 3, ready to pounce, and mishaped, killing them, he wasn't too impressed.

 

I've used that combo myself, used it recently, but didn't like it, pretty much for the reasons above. I'd love to use it more, but just can't justify it, especially as a Rhino is only 35pts and protects them better. It certainly has a surprise factor, but you may need to get some drop pods with beacons, Scout bikers with beacons, and maybe put your Libby in Terminator and a SS to keep him alive. If it works, it works well. But it can easily work badly, so be careful.

 

As for the other questions, the answer to question 1 is in the FAQ to the best of my knowledge, while Lysander only allows re-rolls on boltguns, not plasma guns, as firing the plasma gun part of a combi-plasma still counts as a firing a plasma gun, and not a boltgun.

[Mysticaria]

I like 9 sternguard in a rhino with a librarian with null zone and gate. The GOI becomes a backup plan, with the rhino and null zone being the primary weapons. Combimeltas and combiplasmas are great with Null Zone, and the rhino gives you the needed mobility to make sure you get the rapid fire. Then... gate can either be used to get you out of trouble or go after an objective at the end of the game. Since the GOI won't be used until late in the game, you can afford to take some greater risks with it if the case calls for it. That's the best option I've found so far... but it does come in at an even 400 points.

 

-Myst

[MagicMan]

Its very hit and miss, and it will depend alot on terrain.

 

 

If you can gate somewhere where you have LoS to a unit you can destroy, and yet be hidden from a decent amount of the enemies fire, you're golden.

 

 

There are risks involved with travelling, but its *touch wood* pretty rare to fail a Psychic test on LD 10, and if you're smart with your deepstriking you can limit how dangerous terrain would be. I generally try to place my unit 6 inches away from the enemy, and terrain, had reasonable success avoiding appearing inside walls and usually leaves you in rapid fire range after the deepstrike rolls.

[DarkGuard]

I like 9 sternguard in a rhino with a librarian with null zone and gate. The GOI becomes a backup plan, with the rhino and null zone being the primary weapons. Combimeltas and combiplasmas are great with Null Zone, and the rhino gives you the needed mobility to make sure you get the rapid fire. Then... gate can either be used to get you out of trouble or go after an objective at the end of the game. Since the GOI won't be used until late in the game, you can afford to take some greater risks with it if the case calls for it. That's the best option I've found so far... but it does come in at an even 400 points.

 

-Myst

 

Well besides the extra one guy you don't really need, I really like this idea, and it's something I'm considering myself as well. The question isn't whether I take Null Zone, which of course is the main power, but whether I take Avenger for helping the Sternguard's firepower (something that isn't really needed), Might to help with the Sternguard and/or Honour Guard in combat, or Gate for sneak attacks and having redundancy on their transport, or if the HG's transport is destroyed I can Gate them out and stick the HG in. I believe you're able to Gate out of a transport as well, which makes it interesting, while of course there is the debate about whether you can Gate out of combat or not, if you can that's very useful.

[Mysticaria]

I like 9 sternguard in a rhino with a librarian with null zone and gate. The GOI becomes a backup plan, with the rhino and null zone being the primary weapons. Combimeltas and combiplasmas are great with Null Zone, and the rhino gives you the needed mobility to make sure you get the rapid fire. Then... gate can either be used to get you out of trouble or go after an objective at the end of the game. Since the GOI won't be used until late in the game, you can afford to take some greater risks with it if the case calls for it. That's the best option I've found so far... but it does come in at an even 400 points.

 

-Myst

 

Well besides the extra one guy you don't really need, I really like this idea, and it's something I'm considering myself as well. The question isn't whether I take Null Zone, which of course is the main power, but whether I take Avenger for helping the Sternguard's firepower (something that isn't really needed), Might to help with the Sternguard and/or Honour Guard in combat, or Gate for sneak attacks and having redundancy on their transport, or if the HG's transport is destroyed I can Gate them out and stick the HG in. I believe you're able to Gate out of a transport as well, which makes it interesting, while of course there is the debate about whether you can Gate out of combat or not, if you can that's very useful.

 

Is there still a debate about gating out of combat? I thought that was settled. Do you happen to know what the argument is for not being able to gate?

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

I will always consider Gating out of combat grey area, mainly because no one has done it at my LGS yet. I agree with being able to use it to get out of combat though, there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

[thade]

I will always consider Gating out of combat grey area, mainly because no one has done it at my LGS yet. I agree with being able to use it to get out of combat though, there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

It's not in our Grey Area thread. :D And the 'Crons do it. Why not us? <3

 

Given the steep risks involved in the librarian hopping around with a squad that way, it's hardly game-breaking...and they can't charge after they escape. It's like a shoddy version of Hit and Run.

[Cmdr Shepard]

In hindsight GoI should be like the shunt movement of Interceptors, except only 24", and still with the risk of losing someone (like if you roll a double for your psychic test).

That's a good comparison.

 

I always consider the use of GoI too risky. Maybe I'm wrong but the risk to lose high cost models, and SM are not cheap, always prevent me to use it.

I noticed I have a unpleasing relationship with murphy law on the tabletop ;) : if rolling a double will cause my troubles then it will happen, at least a couple of times, and losing a couple of SM models worth 25 or more pts it's not pleasing. This is my personal experience though

GK interceptors are not so chance-sensitive.

[maturin]

It's been a while (several months) since I've played, but as I've posted in the past few months my current army is set up with a gating sternguard squad as one of its key firepower factors. I do consider GoI to be a high-risk affair, and to mitigate the risk I have a scout biker unit and drop pod in the army, both with locator beacons.

 

What I've found is that the tactic can work and be very effective, it really depends on proper placement and utilization of your locator beacon units. And more often than not, my two locator beacon units (scout bikes and MM dread in pod) are best used in positions that leave them out of Gate range for the Sternguard. So I must choose between footslogging the sternguard forward to get into gate range, or placing a beacon unit in a suboptimal position in order to get the Sternguard in range.

 

Actually, when facing aggressive in-your-face armies (Blood Angels, some Tyranid builds, etc) footslogging the Sternguard isn't a bad option as your opponent will often be in-your-face by turn 1/2....but understand that the GoI/Sternguard path does involve some limitations in your deployment and/or movement options. For me, it's fun enough that I'm going to keep experimenting with it, but I might try out a rhino-based approach as well. All those locator beacons add up to a rhino's cost anyways, and since my sternguard are escorted by vanguard in a rhino, a rhino for the sternguard might be a lot more synergystic.

 

One benefit is that it's a tactic your opponent won't have seen often, and may be caught off-guard by it. That'll only work once though...

[thade]

All those locator beacons add up to a rhino's cost anyways, and since my sternguard are escorted by vanguard in a rhino, a rhino for the sternguard might be a lot more synergystic.

A minor point (as it still works in the case of GoI) but Tactical Squads cannot take Locator Beacons; they can take Teleport Homers. <3 You can DS teleport units to it (and GoI to it) but can't DS jump infantry or other Drop Pods to it.

[DarkGuard]

Minor correction: you can GoI to a teleport homer, but only if all the models in the unit are wearing Terminator armour.

[maturin]

All those locator beacons add up to a rhino's cost anyways, and since my sternguard are escorted by vanguard in a rhino, a rhino for the sternguard might be a lot more synergystic.

A minor point (as it still works in the case of GoI) but Tactical Squads cannot take Locator Beacons; they can take Teleport Homers. <3 You can DS teleport units to it (and GoI to it) but can't DS jump infantry or other Drop Pods to it.

 

I don't think I ever mentioned teleport homers or tac squads...or was your point that that's a limiting factor? I do agree that teleport homers are only used by units in TDA...

 

Now, if teleport homers could be used, I think we'd see a lot more gating around!

[thade]

All those locator beacons add up to a rhino's cost anyways, and since my sternguard are escorted by vanguard in a rhino, a rhino for the sternguard might be a lot more synergystic.

A minor point (as it still works in the case of GoI) but Tactical Squads cannot take Locator Beacons; they can take Teleport Homers. <3 You can DS teleport units to it (and GoI to it) but can't DS jump infantry or other Drop Pods to it.

 

I don't think I ever mentioned teleport homers or tac squads...or was your point that that's a limiting factor? I do agree that teleport homers are only used by units in TDA...

 

Now, if teleport homers could be used, I think we'd see a lot more gating around!

In answer to your question, that original quote there states that "beacons add up to a rhino's cost anyways"...which I misread as "beacons increase a rhino's cost anyways", so it was my mistake. Sorry. :)

 

Also, Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons will both work for GoI, but perhaps I'm mistaken to what you're saying there too.

[ak-73]

Ah, GoI. I am not an experienced gamer, mind you, but I have made okay experiences with it and my Sternguards. Maybe luck, maybe I am conservative enough in placing my deep strike marker...

 

Some pros to all the cons:

1. If you have two Sternguard squads with gating Librarian, it forces the enemy to play differently. He must pay more attention that his bases are covered. or go very aggressively after them.

2. It's not true that they are clustered together after the gate: you may move after deep-striking but not assault.

3. You don't have to use gating Sternguards in a hit-and-miss move to try to eliminate enemy LR or MC. You can also keep them at the center of your side and gate to relatively safe (less chance of mishaps) areas of the flanks for rapid re-deployment. After all if you only need to gate within 18'' of enemy infantry for combi-melta/special ammo double-tap.

4. To wreck hordes you need to gate a bit closer, at least if you have a double Heavy Flamer config. Your risk, you decide.

 

In any case, if you can be in cover after the gate, it's so much better.

 

Alex

 

PS Personally I think GoI is allowed in combat: you do not move in the sense the rules of the movement phase define. Instead you invoke a psy power that moves your troops, namely removing them from the table and placing them back in somewhere else. After that you are not in melee anymore and can move as normal for deep striking units.

[DarkGuard]

In answer to your question, that original quote there states that "beacons add up to a rhino's cost anyways"...which I misread as "beacons increase a rhino's cost anyways", so it was my mistake. Sorry. :D

 

Also, Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons will both work for GoI, but perhaps I'm mistaken to what you're saying there too.

 

Afraid that teleport homers do not always work. The text specifically states that they only work for Terminators Deep Striking. Despite the name, they aren't for anything teleporting (which Gate kind of is), but only for Deep Striking Terminators. Therefore it will only work for Gate if the unit is Terminators, if a single model is in power armour is won't work.

 

I too have had experiences of Gate and Sternguard. Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but in both cases the got shot. A lot. Don't think I'll be using it again.