For concealment, do gun barrels count toward cover of 50%

[dizzy-xc]

1st part: Some large gun barrels are huge. Do these barrels count toward determining if a vehicle is in cover or not? Say for example a SoB Exorcist launcher sticking up over a wall. Do the barrels count for determining whether the vehicle is obscured?

 

2nd part: Because you measure distance to the hull, not the barrel, can a vanquisher tank with a LONG barrel shoot you while remaining entirely hidden because the barrel is so long and the vehicle is completely behind cover, and thus cannot receive return fire? Or is LoS determined from where the tank gun mounts to the vehicle?

[Something Wycked]

I believe that the RAW is weapons and their mounts are not the hull and are not valid targets for LoS; I've heard stories of Riflemen Dreadnoughts only having an arm sticking around a building and are able to fire but not be fired upon.

 

None of my friends exploit the rules like that; we would say that a turret is a valid target to draw LoS to, but if that is the only piece of the vehicle that can be seen then the target will definitely receive a cover save, maybe even with a +1 bonus to it due to the small nature of the target.

[Legatus]

Weapon barrels cannot be targeted, so if only a barrel is visible, then the vehicle can not be fired at.

 

However, LOS from vehicles is measured from the weapon's mounting, not from it's barrel, so the vehicle itself cannot shoot either if only a barrel is in LOS to the enemy.

 

If a vehicle can shoot at something, that something can shoot back. If the vehicle cannot be seen, then the vehicle cannot shoot either.

[ilnar]

Turrets however are a valid target, it is mearly the gun barrel that doesn't count, so you can still target rifleman dreads/ typhoons with an arm/missile pod sticking out. Frankly, if its attacking you, you can attack it.

The SOB exorsist is an unusual case, the only non barrage weapon i can think of that can do so.

 

Edit, ninjad by 8 mins, that'll teach me to paint during replies.

[Seahawk]

1st part: Do these barrels count toward determining if a vehicle is in cover or not?

No. "When a unit fires at a vehicle it must be able to see its hull or turret (ignoring the vehicle's gun barrels, antennas, decorative banners, etc)." (p.60) Since they don't count for anything and aren't a targetable area, they are ignored for cover purposes too.

 

2nd part: Because you measure distance to the hull, not the barrel, can a vanquisher tank with a LONG barrel shoot you while remaining entirely hidden because the barrel is so long and the vehicle is completely behind cover, and thus cannot receive return fire? Or is LoS determined from where the tank gun mounts to the vehicle?

No. "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models." (p.58). Legatus was slightly wrong, as you don't just use the weapon mount. If you're not tracing the line of sight along the parallel of the gun itself, you're doing it wrong. Barrels cannot bend their bullet paths. Also, when shooting you don't measure from the hull: "When firing a vehicle's weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst line of sight is determined from the weapon's mounting point and along its barrel." (p.56)

 

If you're shooting straight on, basically down the barrel of the Vanquisher, then you should have line of sight as you should be able to see part of the mounting/turret.

 

If you're shooting side on, as in the case of seeing the length of the barrel sticking out from the corner of a solid building you can't see through, for instance, you cannot shoot the Vanquisher, as per the LOS rules on p.60. He also cannot shoot you as per the LOS rules on pgs.56 and 58.

[dizzy-xc]

Thanks... I was trying to decide whether to go with the turreted FW SoB exorcist conversion, or do the older GW vertical launcher tubes. I guess I'd be able to see over walls with the FW one, but not with the GW vertical tubes, but in the latter case I'd not be able to be targeted even if those tubes were visible above the wall, right? Choices.

[Jacinda]

Thanks... I was trying to decide whether to go with the turreted FW SoB exorcist conversion, or do the older GW vertical launcher tubes. I guess I'd be able to see over walls with the FW one, but not with the GW vertical tubes, but in the latter case I'd not be able to be targeted even if those tubes were visible above the wall, right? Choices.

 

In all cases, LOS works both ways. If you can target a unit, that unit can target you.

 

If I were playing a game with someone who tried to use RAW to do what you are suggesting I would say that his FW exorcist looks like a whirlwind and not an exorcist and is therefore not a SoB allowed unit. If that did not work, I would simply say it is not a GW model and I would not accept it on the table.

[Something Wycked]

I would simply say it is not a GW model and I would not accept it on the table.

That's stretching things a bit far, don't you think? The model would obviously be from GW- particularly with the business relationship between FW and GW, eh?

 

But you're right about the RAW fiddling. Can't have the cake and eat it too- if you can fire, you can also be shot at. (Unless we're talking about 4th ed Eldar vehicles who can move-shoot-move... :))

[ilnar]

Or barrage weapons, which can shoot without being shot at

[Something Wycked]

Or barrage weapons, which can shoot without being shot at

And that's a whole other rule entirely, affecting the Barrage weapon's chance to hit the target ;)